Romance in Project Eternity: How Important, How Much

[norolim]

If Obsidian decide to include romances, I trust they'll do it right. Just in case here are the things I'd hate to see:

 

- romanes forced on you,

- all or many romanceable characters being bisexual or gay (proportions should be reasonable),

- romances reduced to quick and easy mini quests with sex as a reward,

- romances being a substitute of deep relationships with my PC's companions

- to sum it up: romances done the way EAware does them now

[Monkcrab]

cRPG romances aren't that new. The *way* they're currently done is fairly recent, but we've had the option for a while now. Ultima 7 has that thing with the chick in Cove where you can kiss her and swear eternal love, from the top of my head. There's probably more.

 

Also, optional marriages have existed since at least Sid Meier's Pirates (though that was more or less a numbers game than anything) and I didn't recall people being accused of cybering those. Granted, they were still pictures, but....

 

EDIT : I honestly think part of this debate is due to the dissonance between 'people who play (at least part of) themselves as the protagonist'/'people who play RPGs for stats management' and 'people who RP characters with complete detachment from their real selves as the protagonist'. Group A wanting romance is creepy. Group B wanting romance is no creepier than rooting for characters in a series to HOOK UP ALREADY. Group A finds Group B creepy and Group B find Group A to be party poopers, and there we go.

 

Also, romances do not have to include sex. Really. And disclaimer : I will always be behind whatever Obsidian chooses for this, either way.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Monkcrab

[Bos_hybrid]

It's starting. And they are multiplying.

 

We're being overrun. Abandon ship, abandon ship.

 

Seriously though, you guys couldn't wait two days without a romance thread?That's obsessive and demanding.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Bos_hybrid

[Crusty]

I am not against romances in games, per se.

 

I'm just against romances in this particular game. In the sense of "pick your own pixel" dynamics. If it's apart of the narrative and thematic core of course, then it is what it is.

 

But otherwise, it seems like a waste of limited resources and unlike other certain studios, Obsidian doesn't need to hang their hat on that "pick your own pixel partner" dynamic to have "well written and deep" character interactions.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Crusty

[TEODEX]

As long as they keep it at the level of Torment or MotB I'm cool with it. If I see the smallest hint of this going in the Bioware direction I will just forget about this game.

Like having that Edair as a bisexual LI. I don't have anything against having ONE (and not every damn character) of those around, but if the first character they show us ends up like that... well.

 

Anyway I trust in Obsidian and their writers.

 

Also stop making threads like this! If they are closed is for a reason.

[jarpie]

Like Monte Carlo said, the problem with romances is that writing a single NPC Companion takes couple months, and if you do one romance (for example if you play male-character and have romanceable female companion), then people would demand romances for female -> male, male -> male, female -> female and that's basicly six months of writing and takes basicly four companions, and even if you dont romance the said characters their interactions/dialogue/etc will be limited because writing time and resources were spend on writing romances of what only a portion would play.

 

The budget for this game will be limited already so Obsidian has to look and think where they put it and get as much as possible out of it. IMHO it's better to concentrate on maybe on a bit fewer things than to spread too thin.

[kenup]

And then pink hearts with the letters AO written on them started flowing off the forums.....

Edited September 26, 2012 by kenup

[Death Machine Miyagi]

So to enrich the story and have a credible romance we need to dedicate multiple NPCs (to satisfy sexual variations which if not included will involve yet more whining) to it. Hmmm. Probably six months of writing for that.

 

Six months? For a little bit of extra character development and interaction? Come on, now. What do you think they're doing, making FMV sex scenes? They're not friggin' Bioware...or I hope to hell they aren't, anyway.

 

Basically, this would only be the case if the folks at Obsidian were to decide to make romance options a whole lot more important than I think most sane advocates for them would find reasonable. They don't need to be an overbearing element of the plotline, and in fact making them as such is one of the reasons why Bioware's approach has gotten so obnoxious since Baldur's Gate 2.

 

Please, somebody address the point that crpg romances are a recent development and do not chime with the stated development goals of this project.

 

One of the primary stated development goals of this project is to "pay homage to the great infinity engine games of years past: Baldur's Gate 2, Planescape: Torment, and Icewind Dale." Two out of those three games included romance subplots, though Torment's was admittedly pretty tacked on.

 

All of this said, though my arguing here may suggest otherwise, romances for me are a minor quibble. If done well, I would be happy to see them. I find they make the game world richer and give your character more personality. If done poorly, they're a cancerous tumor that should be excised quickly and ruthlessly or risk destroying the game with their overbearing awfulness. If not done at all, no great loss.

 

But the notion of dismissing everyone who finds any value in them as a sick weirdo hoping to get off on humping his/her imaginary girl/boyfriend, as seems to be the subtext for some comments around here? Give me a break. If I can read a book involving sex and romance without being a pervert, I find it bizarre the same standards don't apply to a well-written game.

[evdk]

So, the poll says that majority enjoy romances in their games and want them to be present while also acknowledging that they have been mostly not very good. Alright.

[Monkcrab]

 

Six months? For a little bit of extra character development and interaction? Come on, now. What do you think they're doing, making FMV sex scenes? They're not friggin' Bioware...or I hope to hell they aren't, anyway.

 

I don't disagree with the rest of your post, but um, a romance isn't exactly an extra bit of character interaction. We're looking at 3-4 months at least, and I honestly don't blame the naysayers when they say (specifically) that the resources might be better spent elsewhere. More power to Obsidian if they decide to do it, but honestly? Nothing against them if they don't. Resources are PRECIOUS.

[Tlantl]

I'm more than happy with a hack and slash rpg. Interpersonal relationships are not something I want in a video game. If I want romance I'll buy a harlequin novel.

 

If it's in the game and I can't ignore it I will be a very unhappy camper.

[Death Machine Miyagi]

Six months? For a little bit of extra character development and interaction? Come on, now. What do you think they're doing, making FMV sex scenes? They're not friggin' Bioware...or I hope to hell they aren't, anyway.

 

I don't disagree with the rest of your post, but um, a romance isn't exactly an extra bit of character interaction. We're looking at 3-4 months at least, and I honestly don't blame the naysayers when they say (specifically) that the resources might be better spent elsewhere. More power to Obsidian if they decide to do it, but honestly? Nothing against them if they don't. Resources are PRECIOUS.

 

I think a big problem in this thread is that the concept of in-game 'romance' is being slung around in all kinds of ways, ranging from the extremes of the Bioware approach to just a few lines of dialogue, so let's speak in the narrowest sense: how much time do you think it cost the development team of Planescape: Torment to put in the Annah romance?

 

I'm guessing not long. And yet in doing so they gave more depth to both the Nameless One and Annah. Nothing more than subtext and a single kiss was needed. Not the most satisfying CRPG romance, of course, but in such a case I think less is definitely more.

[Living One]

I am not against romances in games, per se.

 

I'm just against romances in this particular game.

 

It just seems like a waste of limited resources and unlike other certain studios, Obsidian doesn't need to hang their hat on a "pick your own pixel partner" dynamic to have well written character interactions.

 

Not just that but if they put romanceable characters then the possibilities of more original companions are much lower(a romanceable character would hardly be like Dak'kon,Morte,Dean Domino,etc. and the number of companions isn't that big already).

 

 

Also:1-the "but love and sex are parts of life and should be represented!1!" argument from pro-romancers isn't a sufficient reason to have an actual romance for the PC.Like at all.At most it's an argument to have stuff like NPCs that are married(not in a"big deal way" like many would like to:just something like "the blacksmith you are buying stuff from has a wife that runs the shop at different hours")or some occasional flirty lines(like FNV)or something minor like that.If it was really a sufficient reason then every story would have the protagonist fall in love with someone.Wich just isn't the case.

2-the fact that RPGs have side stories(in the form of quests)isn't a justification for romances either:the main quest and side quests that are thematically relevant to the main one(think New Vegas) should come first.And let's be onest,we know it's really unlikely such relationships will be a main theme.In other words:side quests shouldn't be a justification to randomly throw in whatever storyline you want.

3-The argument "but if they put effort I'm sure they'll do it right".I don't think it's possible but let's admit it's a possibility for a moment:if they put so much effort doesn't that gets in opposition to point 2?

 

inb4 pages and pages of "but love and sex are parts of life and should be represented!1!","but it's just optional side content","but if they put effort I'm sure they'll do it right" arguments regardless.

[Living One]

Six months? For a little bit of extra character development and interaction? Come on, now. What do you think they're doing, making FMV sex scenes? They're not friggin' Bioware...or I hope to hell they aren't, anyway.

 

I don't disagree with the rest of your post, but um, a romance isn't exactly an extra bit of character interaction. We're looking at 3-4 months at least, and I honestly don't blame the naysayers when they say (specifically) that the resources might be better spent elsewhere. More power to Obsidian if they decide to do it, but honestly? Nothing against them if they don't. Resources are PRECIOUS.

 

I think a big problem in this thread is that the concept of in-game 'romance' is being slung around in all kinds of ways, ranging from the extremes of the Bioware approach to just a few lines of dialogue, so let's speak in the narrowest sense: how much time do you think it cost the development team of Planescape: Torment to put in the Annah romance?

 

I'm guessing not long. And yet in doing so they gave more depth to both the Nameless One and Annah. Nothing more than subtext and a single kiss was needed. Not the most satisfying CRPG romance, of course, but in such a case I think less is definitely more.

 

More depth?How exactly does a juvenile crush to some dude she just met(in the form of a corpse at first,of all things) that leads her to follow him wherever he goes as if she was a fangirl following his favourite actor add more depth?

That's why I always drop her in favour of Modron or Vahilor.Her motivations to follow TNO are just so juvenile compared to other companions.

[Hiro Protagionist II]

I don't really understand why so many people place such an importance on romances in crpg games. If I had to list 50 important things in a crpg, romances wouldn't make that list.

[TwinkieGorilla]

It's good to have another poll about this because without a million of these threads its like the developers would have no idea what game to make.

[anek]

Not and none, and can I request that any further threads with 'romance' in the title are autolocked and the poster hung upside down and forced to play Bioware games until Project Eternity is released.

 

I'd just like to qualify that by saying I have nothing against Bioware games, but it might keep people satisfied in the sex simulator department.

 

Ever consider that those in favor of romances in RPGs, are not talking about the cheap "sex quests/achievements" you associate them with?

Because we have seen good, mature examples of how 'romance' can be implemented, in games you apparently have not played?

 

Look at BG2 for example. 'Romances' actually just consisted of being engaged in mature conversations about life, purpose, the past, the future, morals, etc. with your NPCs, and - over many days and weeks of in-game-time (= many hours of player time) - special trust and friendship forming between the PC and one of the party NPCs, out of which over time, something more then friendship could develop. Or not.

It's the long way of getting there, with all the conversations with different viewpoints on 'mature' and 'deep' issues that were shared, that made 'friendships/romances' such a great part of the game - not simply a goal that was "achieved" at the end.

 

I don't understand how romance-hating players could possibly be annoyed by romances as they were implemented in BG2, seeing as you had to actively pursue trust-building and friendship with that NPC, in order to even get them to the point that you could actually consider them romances. In every single personal conversation the NPC would engage you in, you had the option of choosing a dialog option along the lines of...

"This is not the time to muse about such trivial tings, we have more important matters to worry about."

...and the NPC would respond with something like...

"I... did not know you felt that way. I shall not bother you again."

...and the romance would be over irreversibly, even if it hadn't even started yet. What more do you want?

 

I understand that you might rather not see developer resources put into implementing romances that could otherwise be put into features that you like, but I don't get how people can claim that romances would actually make the game less enjoyable for them, if they don't want to pursue them.

Edited September 26, 2012 by anek

[Malcador]

It's good to have another poll about this because without a million of these threads its like the developers would have no idea what game to make.

 

Hey, we're entitled to tell them as without our money they'd have no project. So really, they owe us. Super thin skinned guy starting the thread with a plea to not get wound up is a plus too.

 

In a way, can't wait for the buzz about this to die off while they work, might get less of these "suggestions" from people.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Malcador

[l3loodangel]

It's good to have another poll about this because without a million of these threads its like the developers would have no idea what game to make.

 

Hey, we're entitled to tell them as without our money they'd have no project. So really, they owe us.

 

They owe you? Dude, do you think that your 20$ is enough to buy a project?

 

This thread...

[Living One]

It's good to have another poll about this because without a million of these threads its like the developers would have no idea what game to make.

 

Hey, we're entitled to tell them as without our money they'd have no project. So really, they owe us.

 

They owe you? Dude, do you think that your 20$ is enough to buy a project?

 

This thread...

I think he was being sarcastic

[Scryer]

Look at BG2 for example. 'Romances' actually just consisted of lip servicing, ego stroking, head patting and ass kissing immature, annoying, hostile, whining, energy draining brats with one dimensional personalities and with only one defining characteristic - being unsuffurebale ****.

 

There. Fixed that for you brah.

[anek]

immature, annoying, hostile, whining, energy draining brats

 

Well, duh, not everyone will like every NPC personality. In that case simply "role-play" what you would do in real life, and ignore that NPC or tell him/her to shut up.

I myself had little tolerance for the immature/whining NPCs in BG2, but quite enjoyed getting to know the (on the surface) "hostile" ones.

 

If none of the NPCs who have a friendship/romance scripted in a particular game grow on you (or on the presonality of the character you're playing), then so what. Thats the beauty of role-playing: Everyone will experience the story differently, based on their inclinations and choices.

But what makes you think that there could not be any NPC that you (or your PC) would actually like to get to know and spend conversation time with?

Edited September 26, 2012 by anek

[jarpie]

immature, annoying, hostile, whining, energy draining brats

 

Well, duh, not everyone will like every NPC personality. In that case simply "role-play" what you would do in real life, and ignore that NPC or tell him/her to shut up.

I myself had little tolerance for the immature/whining NPCs in BG2, but quite enjoyed getting to know the (on the surface) "hostile" ones.

 

If none of the NPCs who have a friendship/romance scripted in a particular game grow on you (or on the presonality of the character you're playing), then so what. Thats the beauty of role-playing: Everyone will experience the story differently, based on their inclinations and choices.

But what makes you think that there could not be any NPC that you (or your PC) would actually like to get to know and spend conversation time with?

 

I wrote in another thread that I'd like a proper blokemanship with PC and one of the companions in style of "Hey, lets go grab a beer and reminesence of old times". I don't think any (or at least vast majority) of us who are against romances saying same about friendships or friendship-like relationships so don't put words to our mouths.

[wbn]

Why are romances special enough an idea that we argue about it being in the game before we even know if it fits?

 

 

This is pretty much how I imagine publishers forcing QTE's or man-the-stationary-gun-while-your-homie-drives-the-vehicle scenes into games - completely ignoring whether it'd even harmonize with the vision, just going by the memory of how it once worked in some game.

[anek]

I wrote in another thread that I'd like a proper blokemanship with PC and one of the companions in style of "Hey, lets go grab a beer and reminesence of old times". I don't think any (or at least vast majority) of us who are against romances saying same about friendships or friendship-like relationships so don't put words to our mouths.

 

And I say you're wrong in pretending that they are fundamentally separate things.

 

If the PC and NPC find each other agreeable, spend enough time with each other, build trust, share viewpoints and stories, etc. - they become closer.

What kind of relationship will develop, should depend on their respective inclinations and choices (through words and actions) as well as to some extend of course on circumstance and pure luck.

 

That is role-playing at its best!

If you don't like where your relationship with another character is heading, make this known through your words and actions and the other character can react.

 

If you want the PC to be friends with a particular NPC but not romantically involved, then simply don't lead them on...

Simple as that.