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Romance in Project Eternity: How Important, How Much


Romance in Project Eternity  

365 members have voted

  1. 1. What is your feeling on romance in cRPGs?

    • I never enjoy romance in my games - it often makes me enjoy them less.
      29
    • I don't enjoy romance in my games, but it doesn't affect my enjoyment overall.
      12
    • Most of the time I don't enjoy romance in my games, with a few exceptions.
      43
    • Sometimes I enjoy romance in my games, sometimes I don't.
      66
    • Most of the time I enjoy romance in my games, with a few exceptions.
      56
    • I always enjoy romance in my games, but I don't need them for me to enjoy the game overall.
      120
    • I love romance in my games - without romance I usually don't enjoy games.
      22
    • I am indifferent to romance in my games; don't care either way.
      17
  2. 2. How well do you feel romance has been used in cRPGs in the past?

    • It has always been bad. Sometimes really awful.
      34
    • It is usually not very good, with very rare exceptions.
      78
    • It has been more bad than good, but sometimes it was alright.
      50
    • Sometimes it had been bad, sometimes it has been good.
      69
    • It has been more good than bad, but sometimes it was cringe-worthy.
      57
    • It is usually pretty good, with some notable exceptons.
      55
    • It has always been good. Sometimes exceptionally great.
      14
    • I have no opinion on how it's been done before.
      8
  3. 3. Do you want Project Eternity to include any romance in the game?

    • Absolutely not. I really do not want any romance in the game - I personally dislike the addition, period.
      26
    • I would strongly prefer not. I don't think it can add anything, and I worry that the game overall will suffer if it is done poorly.
      23
    • I'd rather it isn't part of the game, but if Obsidian decides to add it I'll adjust.
      27
    • Up to Obsidian entirely... I'll accept their decision either way equally.
      70
    • I'd rather it is part of the game, but if Obsidian decides to not include it I'll adapt.
      80
    • I would strongly prefer it. I think it can add a lot, and I feel the overall game may be less compelling if it is not included.
      80
    • Absolutely. I really want romance in the game - I personally want it, period.
      49
    • I hold no preference.
      10


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First I'll applaud the poll, which seems unnaturally unbiased.

 

To me, it seems natural my character will try and make a pass at any given babe he (or she) is traveling with.

(especially if it's a whipping hot leather elf)

Maybe get shot down, but if I'm charismatic and cool and awesome, why not success as well.

 

That's the main thing, the rest is extra.

 

I'd enjoy if the "romance" is developed further, all is fine and great.

 

And I wouldn't mind if the whole thing turns into soft- or hard porn, but I also understand some (silly prudes) oppose,

and fully understand many don't like to see developement effort wasted like that.

 

A Dance With Rogues was one of my favourite NWN modules, btw.

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I would be fine with that mya, but I do not think that uniquely hetereo/gay love interests are very realistic only because it potentially alienates so many people. I would love to see it though since it really does potentially add a lot to the characters if they have more concrete sexualities.

 

I would rather have Obsidian make well developed characters to interact with. What they choose to do with their naughty bits should be inconsequintial. NPCs defined by their sexuality are hard to take seriously... just like real people.

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Grandiose statements, cryptic warnings, blind fanboyisim and an opinion that leaves no room for argument and will never be dissuaded. Welcome to the forums, you'll go far in this place my boy, you'll go far!

 

The people who are a part of the "Fallout Community" have been refined and distilled over time into glittering gems of hatred.
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That presumes that anyone who has a sexuality is immediately defined by it, Gurkog. Ever play The Longest Journey? Gay/lesbian characters in that were all over and they were hardly "defined" by the fact that they were gay/lesbian; instead, it was just another thing about them, no different than the fact that they had a certain hair or eye color. I hate this idea that including a gay character will make him DEFINED by the fact that he's gay?

 

And of course, I will just say that for many people their sexuality is an important part about them... so there's that, too. It likely has to do with the culture/setting of the game though with regards to whether or not they'd even be interested in putting in somebody like that.

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I like porn just fine as long as it's amateur, but I don't want any in my RPGs thank you very much. If there's no sex then I don't need to know about a character's sexual preference.

JoshSawyer: Listening to feedback from the fans has helped us realize that people can be pretty polarized on what they want, even among a group of people ostensibly united by a love of the same games. For us, that means prioritizing options is important. If people don’t like a certain aspect of how skill checks are presented or how combat works, we should give them the ability to turn that off, resources permitting.

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Like anything else, depends on how well its done. Bioware-style romance increasingly makes me gag.

 

That being said, I found it kind of disconcerting when I couldn't seem to hit on Arcade Gannon as a gay male or Veronica as a gay female in New Vegas. I wouldn't have even minded if they shot me down for whatever reason, but to leave it entirely unacknowledged felt unnatural.

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You do realize that there is a difference between computer games and real life don't you? Why would you be hitting on Arcade or Veronica in the first place? Would your first thought upon meeting ED-E to hit on him as well?

JoshSawyer: Listening to feedback from the fans has helped us realize that people can be pretty polarized on what they want, even among a group of people ostensibly united by a love of the same games. For us, that means prioritizing options is important. If people don’t like a certain aspect of how skill checks are presented or how combat works, we should give them the ability to turn that off, resources permitting.

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If there's going to be romance let me state my ground rules:

 

1. No Mills and Boon romances. I'm fed up with the teeny lovey romances that has you fawning over each other like little kids before bumping uglies.

2. Just because I don't want want to bang someone doesn't mean I don't want to get to know them. Being told to **** off by Jack because I didn't want to solve all her problems with my **** was damn irritating.

3. Make characters have preferences so they don't go for anyone: gay characters should not be attracted to people of the opposite gender and that tart over there who only likes burly men should not get it on with my mage character.

4. Don't make me fawn all over a character and agree with their opinions to get them into bed. And don't make shagging them the 'point' and goal of it all.

 

Essentially this is how I see it going down:

PC: Hey baby we're both mages and you're hot lets get it on!

Female Mage: Sorry but I only go for real men, those with muscles and big swords and who will smack me around because they love me!

PC: What? But I said everything right and am the PC!

Orc Warrior: Me like delicate mage types!

PC: *being carried off by orc* Please be gentle...

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"That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail

"Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams

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You do realize that there is a difference between computer games and real life don't you? Why would you be hitting on Arcade or Veronica in the first place?

 

My character is unattached. Both of the above characters are unattached. Sexual orientations of the characters in question are compatible. I have been wandering the wasteland with the above character for ages. Why wouldn't hitting on them be an option? At the bare minimum, why would the subject never even come up with them, even for a moment?

 

Its precisely because I know the difference between a computer game and real life that hitting on fictional characters of all kinds doesn't bother me. It adds depth to the game and character interaction and gives my character more personality. That's a good thing....so long as such interaction is optional.

 

Would your first thought upon meeting ED-E to hit on him as well?

 

Pfffttt. ED-E is my robot. Whatever command I give, he follows, right? And he has that very large and powerful laser gun under his belly....

 

Oooooohhhh...Assuming the position.

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Just a small thing...

 

Those of you who seem rabidly opposed to romances... why not sod off out the thread? Your troll-mode engage is not needed, and telling people that just because they want a romance in an RPG means they should be over on BSN just makes you sound like a bratty teen.

 

Let's try and keep the thread somewhat constructive. People have the right to not want romances, and to explain that in a mature and well-reasoned manner, not to act like a derp. :p

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Romance is an important part, and a driving force of life. It's the cause of the most terrible wars, dramatic moments and tensions in history. Therefore it can't be left outside a mature themed cRPG.

 

Yet still I want it to be all random and unpredictable: no romance meters, not limited with companions, not limited to opposite sex, and doesn't automatically end with marriage or sex unless the player wants to.

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And if someone DOES try to insult you for your opinion – please ignore the insults. If you want to try and engage them, feel free, but the best way to keep the thread open and productive is to just not take the bait.

Why bother? You know that the white tunics will come ready to torch anyone who doesn't share their opinions while presenting themselves as paladins of what it's right. *shrugs*

And I mean this in the nicest possible way... the Bioware Social Network is made for you.

4chan --------------------------->

 

 

We have no idea of what the game is about. No idea. So the romance must make sense in the game. Assuming that the game takes more than a few in game months and that the character gets to socialize with other NPCs, we could also assume that romance is not alien to the situation. It doesn't mean that there must be, just that it could happen.

 

Romance has a place in the context of the game? Well, in that case I doubt very much that romance should be the main theme going on as there are other themes more interesting and unused. And it's importance as secondary theme may also be dependant of how really important it actually is for the story. Keep in mind that I'm ignoring the white tunics or the uninterest/bias of authors in the topic. The story elements are defined by the story*, not personal preferences of someone else**.

 

Having the PC involved on some kind of romance supposes some emotional impact on the player (good or bad...) but romance doesn't really need to be about the PC. Having some secondary NPCs romantically involved and witnessing their relationship through the game can have quite the impact too while allowing it to be ignored easily (unless it's really important to the story development). Having an NPC and a companion involved makes it closer but also more difficult to ignore it (why bother with this case if not?). If the PC can ge involved with an NPC, it can be made quite easy to ignore if added as some side theme. But if the PC gets involved with a companion, that means more serious business.

 

If the PC gets involved with a companion, you can keep if as side theme too or you can use it to bring the love theme with full force (for good or bad, should I refer to the Jedi again?). Altough if companions are not killable, truly sad ending romances (as in "Die, die, die my darling!") may prefer to consider sticking to PC vs NPCs romance.

 

In any case, I'd expect to be something between adults, as in mature, and not something between teens that have no idea what it's about but they like to pretend they know anyways. Unless it happens between teen NPCs, then whatever.

 

If the PC can get into romances, nothing like "Say a one liner and jack pot". These people that "fall in love at first sight"? Fakes. All of them. Hormones don't lie though. But sex, if present at all, shouldn't be the goal.

 

Romances, as much as any other relation type in the game (be it with companions or Factions), must be affected by decissions in game. Basing romances just in some conversations is... lame. imho So yeah, if you go out to the country to pick some flowers for your love interest, that should/could create a reaction ("Aww, so sweet!" or "What the ****, man? I wanted diamonds!" or "I love you. As a friend." :p). Killing someone from their family should create reactions too, and not just in the romance area ("You killed my father?" - Lea. "Yeah, well, technically..." - Duke. "You KILLED my father?" - Lea. "Ok, he was the bad guy, remember? Darth Badder?" - Duke. "YOU killed MY father???" - Lea. "Whatever. *force choke*" -Duke.)

 

* in game mechanics can condition this but it's ok and expected.

** more or less like following the scientific method by Max Weber.

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I'd just like to qualify that by saying I have nothing against Bioware games, but it might keep people satisfied in the sex simulator department.

It's an isometric RPG. The closest you'll get to the sex simulator dept. is the 4th wall breaking of Mrs. Bishop or the occasional ball gag in your inventory. Or they could take a page out of the silliness of The Witcher and have you start a card collection.

"You know, there's more to being an evil despot than getting cake whenever you want it"

 

"If that's what you think, you're DOING IT WRONG."

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To reiterate: there is nothing 'mature' about cybering your imaginary friends. In fact, its creepy.

That's hardly "a fact" and wanting romance is certainly less creepy than all the threads that seem to have a hard-on for "killable children are a must !" and "more violent finishing moves plz !".

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For the record, this is a mix of replies to people in the previous romance thread (since that was closed just as I finished typing my post), and replies to people in this current thread. I'll be putting together a proper post about my feelings/opinions on this matter later.

 

Maybe the founders left because they realized that their RPGs had somehow morphed into romance simulators and they were so ashamed they decided to move to some remote island in the South Pacific.

 

I would think that the bigger issue is how EA has turned the RPGs into cinematic, instant-gratification action flicks with minimized RPG mechanics and protagonists that are controlled by the game as often as by the player.

 

I think they got the skills to make it so that the player doesn't feel the need to romance anyone unless they pursue it. Hell, Bioware, who I see as writers not up to par with Obsidian, could do this. Imagine the outrage if the player felt forced to have a gay romance with Cortez. (not that I have a problem with the option, just that there would be outrage).

 

I'm pretty sure people who blindly click the top option for every dialogue choice have already complained about being forced into romances with Cortez, Anders and Fenris.

 

Heck, I even recall someone mistakenly getting laid with Zevran, however he managed to do that...

 

Well, I wasn't talking about Anders specifically. I did have an issue with the fact I couldn't let him down easy and had to lose a bunch of "yay, friendship!" points or whatever. That's less a romance issue though and more an issue with them not giving enough options for Hawke's responses. I had the same issue regarding Merril's quest.

 

I do, however, prefer each character to have their own sexuality. Largely because it just feels more...plausible I guess. Its not really a huge issue for me in the long run though. Again, my biggest issue is just that they turn characters, no matter what their sexuality, into strictly sexual objects in their romances. I find this offensive for both straights and gays, men and women.

 

Yeah, it's really totally understandable that being consistently nice to Anders leads to him misinterpreting that as romantic feelings, but having the only rejection option being one where your character sounds completely disgusted by the idea is mind-boggling. There should have been a simple "sorry, don't feel that way about you" option.

 

However, I really don't have any problem with bisexuality being unusually common in a fantasy world. It may be statistically improbable by our standards that 4 out of 9 companions are bi, but then what are the odds of both the Warden-Commander of Ferelden and the Champion of Kirkwall both being gay? It's easy enough to ignore most companions' sexualities if you're not pursuing them anyway.

 

What the game suffered from here, just like in many other areas, was writing that conflicted with the game design. For once, they didn't actually make the sex scene the final act of the romance arc, but with the way the game was designed it took your hours upon hours before there was any real progress beyond that point.

 

Nothing wrong with bald women.

 

True that.

 

I like this thread. I am camping on it. Can someone please explain here? Pretty please?

 

[On Mass Effect 3's ending]

 

Looking back at it now, I can't claim that it's a particularly good explanation. I was... let's say, rather emotional at the time. But I'm too apathetic about the game now to write anything new, so here's the link:

 

http://www.jedimb.ne...hreeld/#more-43

 

2. Just because I don't want want to bang someone doesn't mean I don't want to get to know them. Being told to **** off by Jack because I didn't want to solve all her problems with my **** was damn irritating.

 

Err... I thought Jack only told you to asterisk off if you had sex with her in mid-game? Or does that happen if you start her "romance arc" and decide to not go through with it?

 

*shrugs*

 

Either way, Mass Effect 2 did suffer from a horrible lack of friendship paths, cutting all the characters' stories short unless you did the romance. Not to mention how people would accidentally enter certain romance paths, although I never had that problem personally. (Usually it was a matter of always picking the top option in that dumb dialogue wheel to get the romance.)

 

We have no idea of what the game is about. No idea. So the romance must make sense in the game. Assuming that the game takes more than a few in game months and that the character gets to socialize with other NPCs, we could also assume that romance is not alien to the situation. It doesn't mean that there must be, just that it could happen.

 

On that note, I hope the passage of time in Project Eternity is clearer than it's been in most of BioWare's games. Besides Dragon Age 2, with its terribly implemented time skips, it tends to seem like they just arbitrarily attach a time frame to the previous games when the sequels are developed.

 

One way to do that, of course, would be an in-game time and date indicator somewhere in the GUI. Or newspapers showing the dates.

Something stirs within...

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To reiterate: there is nothing 'mature' about cybering your imaginary friends. In fact, its creepy.

That's hardly "a fact" and wanting romance is certainly less creepy than all the threads that seem to have a hard-on for "killable children are a must !" and "more violent finishing moves plz !".

 

Fun fact.

 

Cybering is the realm of MMO's, not the realm of games like Baldur's Gate. You don't type out your responses or your characters actions like you would in an MMO. You click pre-selected text.

 

Likewise, playing RPG's on PC's is not LARP'ing (and I have seen people refer to it as such). Putting on a ton of armour, grabbing a sword, acting out a character and hitting people with said weapon is LARP'ing. :p

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To reiterate: there is nothing 'mature' about cybering your imaginary friends. In fact, its creepy.

 

And playing through romance stories in role-playing games is not the same thing as cybering imaginary friends, so it's not entirely relevant.

 

Plus, if something's creepy or not is highly subjective. It's often a matter of open-mindedness and empathic ability.

Something stirs within...

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I think Grom is saying that romances should be **** or bust, all or nothing, to work compellingly. Which would require a CRPG where the romance was a major story-arc. I have nothing against such a project, I wouldn't buy it but it would certainly be viable. But given that the pre-cursor products that inspired PE had only marginal romance content it isn't appropriate for this.

 

Yeah, the problem is that when an RPG has romance as a major focal point of the game, ALL the discussion about the game suddenly becomes about that. Just look at the Dragon Age boards on BSN. :p

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To reiterate: there is nothing 'mature' about cybering your imaginary friends. In fact, its creepy.

 

Depends on how seriously you take it. The assumption you and metiman seem to be making here is that to pursue a romance subplot in a game means that you must long to keep a love pillow of the romanceable character in your closet. In other words, enjoying an in-game romance means you're a sick puppy who can't separate fiction from the real world.

 

What if you just like the greater depth of character introduced by characters who are not arbitrarily rendered into sexless automatons? What if you find a world which lacks one of the most driving forces behind the actions of humans everywhere less engaging than a world which acknowledges and represents that drive, even for your character?

 

Frankly, while I perfectly understand the people who don't want anything to do with it personally, I find the notion of opposing it even as an option and belittling those who disagree bizarre.

Edited by Death Machine Miyagi
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First of all, why are people saying "Bioware romances"? Having sex with another character does NOT equal romance! If your end goal is sex, then guess what, you are not playing romance, you are playing porn.

 

As for the excellently phrased OP, I like romance when it is done well, or resonates with my own experiences. The trouble is that romance done well is extremely rare in games. If romance is going to be an option, it has to be remotely believable in the context of the characters and the story. No "I'm a guy/girl, you're a guy/girl, let's do it" relationship where sex is the goal. The romance has to ENRICH the story, make the player more involved with the characters, and evoke some kind of emotion in the player. The relationship itself needs to be fluid, with multiple outcomes, not just on or off.

 

Ultimately it's up to Obsidian; if they do include romantic storylines, they should be fully realized, not just some vestigial growth attached to the game with a few staples and some duct tape.

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Squeak!


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So to enrich the story and have a credible romance we need to dedicate multiple NPCs (to satisfy sexual variations which if not included will involve yet more whining) to it. Hmmm. Probably six months of writing for that. Which is, literally, stealing assets time and money for content everybody could enjoy. Please, somebody address the point that crpg romances are a recent development and do not chime with the stated development goals of this project.

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