Do you want firearms in Project Eternity?

[Bungyo]

Well then, we'd have to agree that we each have those viewpoints, and to live and let live. Me, i love that feeling, that the old is about to be replaced by the new, that the world is about to change. Sure, we must spare some feelings for the world about to be left behind, but that is progress. As things change, so do our possibilities expand!

You might see it that way, rest of us might see it differently. For me "progress" means death of romance and wonder. We no longer have a world of high adventure and mystery, instead we have a boring place ruled by cold science. You know, the same place from which many of us are trying to escape through books and games.

I'm sorry but I do not want that kind of "fantasy".

 

Well said. Guns just destroy immersion for me in a world like this. I gave myself some time to try and think it over but in the end, I just can't support this project with guns in the fantasy world. Initially I thought I might just drop my donation down from $125 to $25 so I'd still get the game. But I just don't have the desire to support something I feel so strongly against so i canceled my donation. Best of luck to Obsidian in any case. Farewell!

[Redwulf]

Why bother with guns? They will still have bows, and you know the two will be balanced....Now give me a chainsaw, plop me on some mars moon, and unleash the demons, that would be fun.

Anyways, in truth, adding gunpowder for me really takes away from a fantasy setting and its believability. Think about this, guns have now become the dominant weapon in this world, it made bows, armor, and sword-fighting obsolete. True one could make a world that just recently discovered guns, but, that means the world will be changing fast, that the past will soon be wiped away and forgotten, and a new age of long distance mass killing will come into effect. Guns mark the death-knell of a fantasy universe to me, because once they develop there will be no more high-end predators the "civilized" races would have killed them all. What threat is a troll versus a M-16 or a cannon? None. No, there are enough FPS's with guns in them, I don't need to have my fantasy world filled with gun powder, that really marks the end of the fantasy world, and the beginning of a world far too much like our own. I don't know about all of you, but, I have enough of this world already as it is.

EDIT: Well, I guess it will have guns as said at the end of this: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-09-18-project-eternity-interview-new-information-tentative-spring-2014-release-date Well, I can live with it, though I would of rather it had been different. I'm sure they will balance it, though I doubt I will use them personally. Still I enjoyed Arcanum, so guns aren't a deal breaker for me.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Redwulf

[Labadal]

I voted yes because I don't see how it hurts the game if properly balanced.

[Yst]

Well said. Guns just destroy immersion for me in a world like this. I gave myself some time to try and think it over but in the end, I just can't support this project with guns in the fantasy world. Initially I thought I might just drop my donation down from $125 to $25 so I'd still get the game. But I just don't have the desire to support something I feel so strongly against so i canceled my donation. Best of luck to Obsidian in any case. Farewell!

 

Hah! Your interest in the game is contingent not on storytelling, characterisation, world narrative, gameplay features, nor the talent of its creators being adequate to the realisation of these things, but on your being reassured that other people can’t use a black powder weapon type at any time, while playing said game.

 

Let’s be clear on this. The concern is not that some given feature or quality should be present in the gameworld. The concern is that an item type which other people like is being made available to them. And you don’t want it to be. Which causes you to completely reverse your position on the game.

 

It’s this sort of drama queen nonsense which results in developers rightly ignoring 95% of the incoherent wailing and gnashing of teeth which proceeds from the community of any given substantially popular game these days. There have been some rather silly feature demands since this project was announced, naturally. But this demand that - not even a broad feature, but a weapon type - be made completely absent, has to be the stupidest ultimatum I have seen issued by a hot-under-the-collar gamer since half the population of the Bioware forums played the ending to Mass Effect 3 and declared its intention to go on a shooting rampage, overthrow the shackles of the cruel civilisation which had birthed it, and begin a new life nourished by the blood, and fed by the entrails, of the children and grandchildren of every EA/Bioware employee who had touched the project, unto the seventh generation.

[pedroantonio]

I can't believe that anybody that likes the tactical rpg's of old decides to cancel their pledge because of the game having mechanical ranged weapons or technology (how do you think a sword is made?).

In my opinion it's too nitpicking, the trees are not letting them see the forest. If you cancel, the next time you are reading the reviews about the new simplified combat, recycled story, choice lacking RPG, before starting to complain about the death of the good RPG's, remember that you had the oportunity of helping in the making of one of those good RPG's, and you let it pass because a minor detail.

Of course, everybody is free to put their money wherever they want, but I think their concept of fantasy is too tight.

Edited September 19, 2012 by pedroantonio

[Cymelion]

Hmmm - Firearm kinda.

 

What I would like is a device you could place in a crystal/gem charged with elemental magic that discharged it when a trigger is pulled. So instead of searching for ammunition or having a crafting process for ammunition. You can buy gems with the charges in it or find them hidden away, this would make the device good for using against the weakness of certain mobs. Say you piled all your abilities into Frost and come up against a frost immune you can pull out this weapon and put in a Fire Gem and use that instead.

[Infinitron]

Just for fun, here are some Italian LARPers acting out 16th century style warfare:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN6OLApKSmk

Edited September 19, 2012 by Infinitron

[Tauron]

You're unable to differentiate a fantasy world from our own history. This is NOT a game set in medieval history, it's HIGH FANTASY, it means completely made up world and rules. In THIS world the advancement of science could very well be evil, unlike in ours, so your stance that those who wish to delve into the known sword&board fantasy without firearms are somehow longing after our own medieval history is completely incorrect.

 

I think that you are unable to differentiate a fantasy world from our own history. Advancment of science in our world WAS considered evil, like during entire middle ages. There is reason this period of our history is considered the DARK AGES. The most obvious exampel would be Catholic Church, Vatican condeming every discovery that THEY FELT challenged the scriputers and most importantly their authority. They tried to ban crossbow as it was cowards weapon and every peasnt with little to no training could with one shot kill highly trained knight. Gunpowder whn first discovered was considered devilry and magic. For all we know, gunpowder in THIS setting is considered magic, maybe it is not even called gunpowder, maybe they use fairy dust?

 

 

so your stance that those who wish to delve into the known sword&board fantasy without firearms are somehow longing after our own medieval history is completely incorrect.

 

First opposition to mention of guns is that people went to our own medieval history and how guns changed the rules of war and knowing that, how having guns would 'suck'. Like why wouldnt evryone start using guns as they made other weapons more or less obsolite. This is not our world as you said. We still dont know how much gun in this high fantasy setting matters, how is it realistic or stupid and why wouldnt evryone just use it next to metheor showers, fireballs etc. In high fantasy setting, where magic is pretty common and quite deadly and havent made evrything else obsolite, why should guns?

Edited September 19, 2012 by Tauron

[SgtGriff]

If firearms are included, it might be neat to see them treated as if they were just invented: devastating, but dangerous to the user and inaccurate at much a distance.

 

However it works, let's have a creative twist.

[fkldnhlsdngsfnhlsndlg]

I don't mind firearms in the least. We don't even know what form they will take in Project Eternity - cannons? magic wands? seals that suck souls out of enemies? It's too early to just say "no guns, period" considering we know next to nothing about the universe. Besides, we already know that the game won't take place in a typical generic fantasy world... there should be no problem with doing something different.

[pipboy2000]

Cannons with case shots (canister shots?), which were first used in the 15th century, were devastating on the battlefield. Not only were they able to kill a lot of enemies with one single shot, but many victims were maimed (mutilated?)

 

In other words, a fireball spell. Or ice storm. Or chain lightning.

 

That is exactly what I am trying to say! A fireball spell, or ice storm, or chain lightning, that is what I want to see! NOT cannons or firearms!

 

In my personal opinion, in a fantasy world such a supreme (fire)power should be represented by magic and NOT by firearms. That's what makes it a fantasy world for me.

 

With your argumentation you could implement almost everything, since there could be spells for almost everything.

Personal sci-fi energy shield -> why not? There ARE shield spells in a fantasy setting!

Jumpjets on your back? -> Why not? If you have a spell for levitation!

Energy weapons? If somebody can shoot lightning from his hands...

 

Not only I really hate the clothes of those Landsknecht bastards , but these men were brutal slaughterers who were, for example in the Thirty Years War, capable of unspeakable bestialities, which, again, in my opinion do not fit in the fantasy setting, I would expect from PE.

 

You seem to be implying that knights were somehow more civilized. I don't believe that. Raping and pillaging is an honored tradition of pre-modern warfare . In fact, during the Hundred Years War (1300s-1400s), it was standard English policy to practice a scorched earth campaign against the French. Rape in war was, while discouraged by the Church and moral authorities, widely considered proof of a soldier's masculinity and valor in battle. So I'm not sure where you got your impression that somehow war crimes originated with the Landsknecht.

 

You are right, I know that in NO war in history the soldiers behaved civilized but, on the contrary, did many disgusting things, mainly to the civil population.

(I read about the conquest of Jerusalem in the first crusade, for example and I know, that knights were capable of horrific things.)

 

But: I read many legends (myths?) like for example the song of Roland, the tale of Wolfdietrich, the legend of king Arthur, the Nibelungen etc. and this is what formed my picture of knights as well as the historical reality.

You see, there is a big amount of romanticization in my view on knights and I am well aware of that (and I think I am not alone with it).

But, uff, how to explain..., there is nothing "romantic" in Landsknechts, or cannons, or firearms... and that is the reason why, in my eyes (!), they do not fit in a fantasy setting. They just do not "feel" right.

 

I hope you now can understand my point of view.

 

pipboy2000

Edited September 20, 2012 by pipboy2000

[cyberarmy]

Yes, i would like to see them in game. Powerfull but slow also has more chance to miss critically.

[jediwolf]

@pipboy2000

 

High five. Agree with you in 100%. If we want firearms in fantasy world it should be only represented by magic. NO GUNPOWDER, NO PISTOLS, NO RIFLES, NO BULLETS.

[Karranthain]

@pipboy2000

 

High five. Agree with you in 100%. If we want firearms in fantasy world it should be only represented by magic. NO GUNPOWDER, NO PISTOLS, NO RIFLES, NO BULLETS.

 

You should, as the elves say, chillax. Firearms are in the game, it's been confirmed many times already.

[Wintersong]

In my personal opinion, in a fantasy world such a supreme (fire)power should be represented by magic and NOT by firearms. That's what makes it a fantasy world for me.

But we all have personal opinions about this. Obsidian is creating the world for PE so as much as they can share their vision and gather some feedback, it's about what they understand that their fantasy world is and not our personal point of view about what a fantasy world is.

Fantasy is something that isn't real. A world exactly like ours but with elves in addition to humans would be fantasy. A world exactly like ours but with simians(apes?) instead of humans would be fantasy. Star Wars is fantasy (space opera subtype).

 

And altough I can agree that just because magic can do powerful stuff, I don't think that any kind of mundane technology can be added, I don't agree about comparing high-(scifi)tech stuff to magic in a non sci-fi fantasy setting. Even a musket isn't by far near the level of an energy shield. No way. Altough it's my belief that magic is actually too powerful and easy in many settings of medieval nature...

 

Let's also keep in mind that there is much that we don't know about the world. We don't know how it has evolved (let's forget creationism for a moment here). Magic works much like technology. It may use "different rules" but at the end of the day it is almost the same. Both magic and technology would answer to the needs of the individuals/societies and develop/evolve based on those needs. A society with no access to magic would depend on mundane breakthroughs to develop itself while a society with heavy access to magic may never need to develop any mundane breakthrough as they develop their equivalent magical breakthroughs.

 

And my example susposes a magic system similar to D&D . We don't really know what the PE magic system can actually achieve. It may be able to do similar stuff or it may be "weaker" in its options. And I'm avoiding considerations of arcane vs divine vs psionic magic.

 

Er... imho

Edited September 20, 2012 by Wintersong

[pipboy2000]

@Wintersong: In an earlier post in this thread, I made clear, that I understand and accept, that there will be firearms in this game.

 

First of all: This is my personal opinion. I understand, that there will be firearms in PE and I understand, that the majority of the people over here want to see them in the game.

But still I want to explain why, in my point of view, firearms destroy a true fantasy setting.

 

[...]

 

Do I still want to back this game? Yes, of course! I think this is an awesome project and I am excited about the game it will eventually become! But I would lie, if I would say that I am happy with the decision to use firearms in PE.

 

pipboy2000

 

With that last post I just wanted to answer to Nivenus.

 

Like I said: There will be firearms and even though I don't like it, it's ok. Because Obsidian shall do the game they want to do and of course because the majority over here likes it that way.

 

Nevertheless I enjoy debating with such a role-play-loving community!

 

pipboy2000

[mayfaire]

I'd like to see guns in the game just so it can prove to people that guns in fantasy doesn't mean steampunk. Yes, black powder changed the way battles are fought, but people didn't immediately stop using armour and swords. The invention of the longbow changed the way battles were fought, too, but it doesn't seem anyone's calling for their removal because it means no one can play a mounted knight (mostly because that's not what it means, but you could make a similar argument).

 

When I first saw the concept art with guns I wasn't particularly enamoured, but if it helps the setting feel new and fresh I'm all for it.

[The Sharmat]

I'd like to see guns in the game just so it can prove to people that guns in fantasy doesn't mean steampunk. Yes, black powder changed the way battles are fought, but people didn't immediately stop using armour and swords.

This. Gunpowder was invented in the real world pretty close to the time that William the Bastard of Normandy conquered England. It was a long time before it came to dominate warfare. We can have our cake and eat it, too.

[Canova]

Firearms are in the game, it's been confirmed many times already.

you said that like hundred times already

whats the point of any similar discussion on this here forum if everything abut this game is already decided? no, i really dont think it should work that way. obsidian is getting money for P:E from their fans and therefore fans should have like at least some influence on the development of P:E.

i was hoping that if enough people voice their disapproval of some feature (like addition of firearms in this case) they will be forced to either remove that feature or at least modify it somewhat

[Jaesun]

Since they are already a part of this world and setting, I don't see the point of this poll. But whatever.

[Wintersong]

whats the point of any similar discussion on this here forum if everything abut this game is already decided? no, i really dont think it should work that way. obsidian is getting money for P:E from their fans and therefore fans should have like at least some influence on the development of P:E.

i was hoping that if enough people voice their disapproval of some feature (like addition of firearms in this case) they will be forced to either remove that feature or at least modify it somewhat

You can give your opinion. As any other game developer, Obsidian can ignore it as much as they want. If enough people demands D&D as game system, Obsidian should concede too? If enough people demands that everybody in the game world is a pixie, should Obsidian concede?

 

Should people who have pledged more have their opinions be more valuable for Obsidian?

[The Sharmat]

i was hoping that if enough people voice their disapproval of some feature (like addition of firearms in this case) they will be forced to either remove that feature or at least modify it somewhat

The degree to which this board's input should alter Obsidian's plans is debatable, but even if that degree is huge; judging by this poll the majority of voters would like firearms to be a feature, so your statement isn't relevant in this case.

[Paul D]

I hope there is a pudding gun option; of the endless pudding variety. No village will starve when I visit

[atn]

I've always preferred the more pure fantasy style over the semi-steampunk, dwarves with flinklock rifles type of deal.

 

I totally agree. Also, why mention BG, NWN, PS:T, etc if you're not going to make a game in a fantasy setting ?

[Rocketbean]

Only if they were rare and didn't completely replace bows once found.