[Merged] DRM Discussion Thread

[Zoraptor]

That is a very silly policy from GOG, would not be at all surprised if it goes very quickly. It's not like indie even has a set definition. You can quite easily define Paradox (developed) games as being indie, or Valve games for that matter as neither has an external publisher. On the other hand most would refer to Bastion as indie.

 

If GOG want it not to be a problem it won't be, even if the 'solution' amounts to deciding the publisher is 'Obsidian'.

[Tallin Harperson]

Indeed, that would be great. But for now GOG.com have set a price limit at $20 for indie games.

Project Eternity will be $25 so not on GOG unless there's some changes on their price policy before 2014.

 

What do you consider an "indie game"? Something not from an established developer? In that case, Obsidian wouldn't be a included there, and you already have games from Telltale Games that are definitely over that price point, all the way up to $35 for Tales of Monkey Island and the latest Sam and Max game.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Tallin Harperson

[Demoss]

Not to mention The Witcher 2 went on full price on Gog.. yes there the sister company of CD Projekt but still, doubt they would limit the price based on the recent indie games they have added.

 

I registered to add my vote for a Gog release and i've already pledged.

[Infinitron]

Obsidian isn't indie.

[Gorth]

Between Steam and GOG?

 

GOG anytime. Not to say that Steam is not okay, but with GOG you get all these extras and no DRM!

I've got large game libraries from both and they each have their strengths and weaknesses. Still, voted on GOG just for good measure.

[Arundor]

Thanks for the link, I voted.

 

Even if it doesn't get on GOG, Obsidian should do a "GOG style" release as one of their distribution options. By "GOG style" I mean a standalone DRM-free installer that can be use offline without a client an unlimited number of times.

[Hornet85]

If DRM-free is what I want, I would rather get them directly from Obsidian so they could get all my money.

[Ieo]

From the latest update:

 

Project Update #2: What's Next? Stretch goals and an update from Obsidian

 

 

We've been listening to your feedback, and have the following announcements:

 

DRM Free: We are looking into it! Please check back for updates.

Digital Only Tiers are coming!

PayPal is coming asap. Please be patient!

New $5k Tier. We are looking into a new $5k tier since it sold out so quickly! We are looking into equivalent alternatives.

 

Thank you fans!

 

Obsidian

 

Thank you. I'm sure you peeps will do right by us in this regard.

[Humodour]

It's good to see that Obsidian is thinking about being DRM-free, but I'd like a concrete commitment.

[alanschu]

What losses? You need to keep in mind that this is a crowdsourced project, so the "losses" you describe exist only in the traditional publishing systems---physical materials and storage, marketing channels, and the initial private funding. None of those three apply here because (1) nothing should be pre-printed nor brick-n-mortar leased, only post-printed using existing consumer payment; (2) you don't get more "free marketing" than the internet; (3) this is a public venture, and Kickstarters are not beholden to behind-the-scenes investors that funded a startup corp. (Yes, Obsidian is a bit different because the studio existed prior as a/part of a corporate entity, but I'm treating them as a true crowdsource initiative in every sense.)

 

As a dev, it's still a kick in the teeth if the game is heavily pirated.

 

I do agree that a crowd sourced game has less innate reason to have DRM, the irony is that piracy in this case actually more directly affects the developer. It's also important to note that 100% of the funding may not necessarily come from the Kickstarter. Brian Fargo stated in his he was willing to chip in $100,000 of his own money into the project.

[Ieo]

It's good to see that Obsidian is thinking about being DRM-free, but I'd like a concrete commitment.

 

True. I'm being optimistic, though, because there's different DRM-free options they have to look at in terms of distribution as well (Steam or GoG, and whatever else I don't know about). With the disc, I want something very basic if at all.

 

What losses? You need to keep in mind that this is a crowdsourced project, so the "losses" you describe exist only in the traditional publishing systems---physical materials and storage, marketing channels, and the initial private funding. None of those three apply here because (1) nothing should be pre-printed nor brick-n-mortar leased, only post-printed using existing consumer payment; (2) you don't get more "free marketing" than the internet; (3) this is a public venture, and Kickstarters are not beholden to behind-the-scenes investors that funded a startup corp. (Yes, Obsidian is a bit different because the studio existed prior as a/part of a corporate entity, but I'm treating them as a true crowdsource initiative in every sense.)

 

As a dev, it's still a kick in the teeth if the game is heavily pirated.

 

I do agree that a crowd sourced game has less innate reason to have DRM, the irony is that piracy in this case actually more directly affects the developer. It's also important to note that 100% of the funding may not necessarily come from the Kickstarter. Brian Fargo stated in his he was willing to chip in $100,000 of his own money into the project.

 

Yes, absolutely. Maybe I'm just being cynical, knowing DRM really changes nothing (I'll just sit in my corner, continuing to hate on the politicians that Free Traded everything away, don't mind me ).

 

Ah, the large personal backers--forgot about them.

 

There are thus three basic schools of thought about software DRM:

 

(1) Do it. From the business and legal perspective, of course you have to protect your creation.

(2) Do it as painlessly as possible. Just don't piss off the users overmuch. But we understand.

(3) Don't ever do it. The pirates will always crack it anyway, and you're punishing the legit users, and if it's particularly bad, you'll actually promote bootlegging (see Spore). Removing DRM can promote your business!*

 

I used to be 1 and now vacillate between 2 and 3 depending on the implementation, having been severely burned by a major $$$ software activation failure that cost two solid days with tech support and then being told I had to reformat my freaking drive to use their software. Oh hell no. That's just an average horror story--I don't expect Eternity to ever come close to that debacle. Still. Just thinking about that shifts my alignment to evil sometimes. But in this case, I'm pretty much at 2.

 

*I don't know if this argument really pans out in the real world, as I don't know if any studies/white papers have been done looking at measurable economic effects in a before/after scenario.

[Freddo]

A GOG release would be lovely

[Pop]

Obsidian isn't indie.

This project is.

[elfbarf]

I'd love to see this game hit both GOG (DRM-FREE!)

 

So, keep on voting on GOG for this:

http://www.gog.com/e...roject_eternity

 

It's a bit too early to be doing that, I don't see any point of requesting them to add a game which is at least a year and a half away.

[ddillon]

I do not and will not use Steam. I will pledge if the game is offered DRM-free, and I will pledge more if that DRM-free copy is provided by GOG.

 

http://www.gog.com/

[True_Spike]

GoG version would be very nice - even if it means coughing up a few bucks more.

 

I doubt it would cost more than on Steam, to be honest.

[ddillon]

I would consider accepting a simple disk-check or offline CD/DVD-key, but I do not and will not use Steam.

 

I will pledge if the game is offered DRM-free, and I will pledge more if that DRM-free copy is provided by GOG.

 

http://www.gog.com/

Edited September 16, 2012 by ddillon

[Hornet85]

I would consider accepting a simple disk-check or offline CD/DVD-key, but I do not and will not use Steam.

 

I will pledge if the game is offered DRM-free, and I will pledge more if that DRM-free copy is provided by GOG.

 

http://www.gog.com/

 

Whats the different between DRM free and GOG?

 

I don't see any difference. Might as well get directly from Obsidian or the box version rather than having GOG taking a cut.

[Humanoid]

Setting up a back-end for online purchases, both in terms of the transaction system and the downloads, when all you have is one product might not be worth it. (I imagine they'd struggle to get permission to sell their past published games) I have no idea about the real figures in such an endeavour would be like, granted.

[silvercross]

I've already pledged for a boxed version, but I'm holding off on the big bucks till I hear more concrete DRM plans. To be honest, I was very surprised to hear they didn't outright say it was DRM free. I thought it was publishers who insisted on DRM? (Though, aren't we technically their publishers now?)

 

I'm OKAY with a disk-check (maybe just during installation? My CD drive is loud), but I absolutely hate anything with online activation/verification or whatever. I collect quite a bit of games too, and I don't like the possibility of being unable to install my game 10-20 years down the line because the server's gone or no longer supported. That's already assuming I even have access to the internet or live in an area with internet. (Hey, you never know what might happen and I'm sure I'm not the only one who has gone through periods without internet access.)

Edited September 16, 2012 by silvercross

[c01mhth10ch]

they said DRM free news comming soon, so no point in poking that with a stick now.

 

However, I find it silly to assume that every pirated game inastance means one less coppy sold (less money for people who developed it). I can say from the lenghty first hand experience that huge number of people who pirate games are people who can not afford the game (either because they don't have money for it or game is not sold in their country). Also there is a part of people who want to try out the game before they buy it, so they pirate it, and if they like it they buy it.

 

I can now afford to buy games I like, but I just chose to pirate DRM heavy games (I payed for the witcher 1&2 but I pirated M&M Heroes 6).

 

So, my point was not to show anything else then that DRM does not lessen the number of pirated copys since every games I wanted to play so far was also available thru torrents, DRM only makes it worse on the PAYING customers, and in the mean time you don't get more money because of it, you might even lose some, since it cost money to implement and some people are not going to buy the DRM game just because of DRM.

 

Only thing that is left is people who pay for the game when pirating the same is "too hard", but honestly I don't think those exist in any significant numbers.

Edited September 16, 2012 by c01mhth10ch

[szpada87]

I would like to discuss the Steam distribution. Is it possible to enable for some player GOG option. Guys at gog.com are pro-DRM-free gamers and have fair licence agreement. On Steam customers are just mere subscribers and it wouldn't feel right that guys who payed kickstarter fees don't have certain rights attached to it. There is also a fact that one has to be running Steam application to play the game and this is an issue for some of us.

 

Please consider GOG or other online distribution options.

[Hornet85]

If Obsidian can pull it off, I think DRM free should come directly from Obsidian themself.

 

There are many indie dev like Legend of Grimlock who are selling DRM free version of their games on their own site.

 

As for Steam, they never said it will be Steamworks so I'm not sure why everyone is so afraid. The DVD version will not need Steam since its not Steamworks, either they have some other DRM like Securom, or no DRM at all.

Edited September 16, 2012 by Hornet85

[Rosbjerg]

I think the fear is that the digital copy will only be available through steam - not the physical copy.

[Hornet85]

I think the fear is that the digital copy will only be available through steam - not the physical copy.

 

I see. Well, I'll be surprise if Obsidian can't sell the game on their own online. Even Wasteland 2 are selling the game on their own, and they are arguably a "newbie" company started by Brian Fargo for that project. IMO, if they can have a paypal option system on their site soon, selling the game wouldn't be a problem.