Mass Effect 3

[Oblarg]

The original Normandy was purely a stealth ship. Meant for recon purposes, and to get a small squad in undetected.

 

The Normandy mark 2 was about twice the size, so I'm guessing while it was still built for some stealth, it was going to have a lot more actual combat utility. Throw in the assorted upgrades you pick up to push the envelope..

 

You win the fight even without upgrades.

 

The SR2 is twice as big, sure, but it's still a reconaissance vessel. It's still a frigate. One designed for stealth, at that - not even the "wolfpack" type designed for offense. If greylord would stop the preteen antics and read the in-game codex, he might have learned that (and in addition learned that the upgraded firepower is only equivalent to a cruiser-class gun, and that the upgraded armor is pretty standard for any larger battleship - not that this matters, as previously mentioned you win the fight even without any of the upgrades). Now, if the collectors only possess one cruiser that can't win a pitched fight against a frigate, how could they possibly hope to succeed anywhere other than undefended fringe colonies?

 

 

 

Only one of those (working with Cerberus) is a genuine plothole, the rest is just stuff you didn't like. That's just the direction they chose to take, much as Obsidian developed K2 around having to have Kreia until the plot demanded she go, even if you didn't trust her. Your only knowledge that Kreia is no longer a sith comes from Kreia herself, your only knowledge that TIM has humanity's best interests at heart comes from him etc. I'm no fan of how they chose to accomplish their plot as it is at best clunky, but then again lots of game plots have decidedly clunky aspects precisely because without them the story would not exist. It is more clunky than K2 because it is a direct sequel using Shephard, but I think I can safely say that everyone has seen people who absolutely loathe the idea that Kreia cannot be spaced in K2 as soon as you leave Peragus- not all called Volourn, either- and that that complaint is fundamentally the same as that applied to working for Cerberus; that it's a plot contrivance in order to tell the story.

 

My big list of criticisms for ME2 would be: Cerberus (plothole), too many loyalty missions (personal preference), gob smackingly awful final boss (fundamental and absolute irrefutable truth), gameplay which was too frequently overly popamole (personal preference).

 

How is it that your primary foe being a complete and utter non-threat and your primary approach to how you're going to deal with this foe being completely moronic are not "genuine plotholes?"

 

I mean, if you want to argue that the plot is fine and the ME universe is just populated by retards, go right ahead. But somehow, I don't think that was BioWare's intent.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Oblarg

[GhostofAnakin]

I was just glad ME2 focused less on being a Spectre. The entire concept is too stupid to justify. So glossing over it was one of the big improvements of ME2 in my mind.

 

I didn't really like how being a Spectre wasn't really a big deal. I mean, the characters would comment on what a big deal it is, but throughout the game it doesn't really do anything. There are places you're still restricted from going, and people still seem to second-guess everything you do/say. I'm a Spectre, damn it. Where's my respect, man?!

[Tale]

I was just glad ME2 focused less on being a Spectre. The entire concept is too stupid to justify. So glossing over it was one of the big improvements of ME2 in my mind.

 

I didn't really like how being a Spectre wasn't really a big deal. I mean, the characters would comment on what a big deal it is, but throughout the game it doesn't really do anything. There are places you're still restricted from going, and people still seem to second-guess everything you do/say. I'm a Spectre, damn it. Where's my respect, man?!

Respect? I'm surprised they're not shot on sight by 9/10th the galaxy.

 

"Oh, you mean like Saren?"

Ummm....

"Or that one Asari who blew up the office building?"

Well...

"I heard that there was this other Turian Spectre that got into a fight with a Justicar because she wouldn't let him shoot civilians."

About that...

"And that human Spectre everyone's in love with, I hear he abandoned the Citadel right before Saren attacked it."

I wouldn't know.

 

It's a classy group.

[Gorth]

I thought Spectres were just Jedi/Grey Wardens (mind you, I haven't played much of the first game)?

[Zoraptor]

How is it that your primary foe being a complete and utter non-threat and your primary approach to how you're going to deal with this foe being completely moronic are not "genuine plotholes?"

Neither are plot holes, the second is pure opinion.

 

I'd say there's actually plenty of in game evidence that the Collector ship is not that great- it runs away from the few fixed guns necessary to defend a small colony like Horizon, for example. It had zero chance of hitting a well defended target even on in game evidence, thus things like the plague on Omega to kill off the non humans and get lots of vorcha there. The circumstances under which you fight it are almost polar opposite from the first time, you're in a larger and better armed ship even by default, and they're the ones surprised.

 

If it were a plot hole it would be pretty much identical to the working for Cerberus one- you're basically just believing what TIM says about the collectors being OMTG teh big threat!!one!1!! even despite knowing that he's utterly amoral and completely untrustworthy, and later knowing that he set Horizon up in the first place. I'm slightly reticent to speculate given that the game has leaked, but I'd go so far as to suggest it may have been a case of one reaper servant using you to eliminate another reaper servant.

[Oblarg]

Fair enough, I could see that if you construe the plot such that the collectors aren't intended to be the massive threat that everyone in the game keeps saying they are, then it's not really a hole so much as a questionable plot direction. But I honestly think it's much more likely that BioWare were simply being very lazy writers. In either case, the collectors were a pretty feeble enemy and the second game felt like more of an excuse to have you do loyalty missions than any cohesive story.

 

What's interesting about your interpretation, though, is it makes the railroading of the player into TIM's service that much more frustrating - if you accept that BioWare intended the collectors not to be a genuine threat, then you are essentially stuck playing the part of an intensely gullible hero being transparently exploited with no way of doing things properly. It also sort of brings up the question of why not a single character in-game has the wits to ask "why are we worrying about these guys when they only have a single ship that can't even deal with defense turrets?"

 

You've still left unanswered the question of what sense it makes, of all possible ways to prepare for a suicide mission whose conditions you know nothing about, to go about gathering crew members and solving their personal problems. This simply seems like a very, very stupid course of action to me. I'm all ears for possible explanations.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Oblarg

[greylord]

The original Normandy was purely a stealth ship. Meant for recon purposes, and to get a small squad in undetected.

 

The Normandy mark 2 was about twice the size, so I'm guessing while it was still built for some stealth, it was going to have a lot more actual combat utility. Throw in the assorted upgrades you pick up to push the envelope..

 

You win the fight even without upgrades.

 

The SR2 is twice as big, sure, but it's still a reconaissance vessel. It's still a frigate. One designed for stealth, at that - not even the "wolfpack" type designed for offense. If greylord would stop the preteen antics and read the in-game codex, he might have learned that (and in addition learned that the upgraded firepower is only equivalent to a cruiser-class gun, and that the upgraded armor is pretty standard for any larger battleship - not that this matters, as previously mentioned you win the fight even without any of the upgrades). Now, if the collectors only possess one cruiser that can't win a pitched fight against a frigate, how could they possibly hope to succeed anywhere other than undefended fringe colonies?

 

Only one of those (working with Cerberus) is a genuine plothole, the rest is just stuff you didn't like. That's just the direction they chose to take, much as Obsidian developed K2 around having to have Kreia until the plot demanded she go, even if you didn't trust her. Your only knowledge that Kreia is no longer a sith comes from Kreia herself, your only knowledge that TIM has humanity's best interests at heart comes from him etc. I'm no fan of how they chose to accomplish their plot as it is at best clunky, but then again lots of game plots have decidedly clunky aspects precisely because without them the story would not exist. It is more clunky than K2 because it is a direct sequel using Shephard, but I think I can safely say that everyone has seen people who absolutely loathe the idea that Kreia cannot be spaced in K2 as soon as you leave Peragus- not all called Volourn, either- and that that complaint is fundamentally the same as that applied to working for Cerberus; that it's a plot contrivance in order to tell the story.

 

My big list of criticisms for ME2 would be: Cerberus (plothole), too many loyalty missions (personal preference), gob smackingly awful final boss (fundamental and absolute irrefutable truth), gameplay which was too frequently overly popamole (personal preference).

 

How is it that your primary foe being a complete and utter non-threat and your primary approach to how you're going to deal with this foe being completely moronic are not "genuine plotholes?"

 

I mean, if you want to argue that the plot is fine and the ME universe is just populated by retards, go right ahead. But somehow, I don't think that was BioWare's intent.

 

So a cruiser class and battle ship class is not battle ready...and you have the best pilot in the galaxy...sure...dream on....

 

Plus, even with that you still have to fight them off in your hull because they're trying to board you instead of out and out destroy you apparantly in your approach...and you STILL crash land...

 

I think you'd side with the council in ME1 and ME2...afterall you probably didn't consider Sovereign a threat until it attacked the council, and probably would have let the reaper be created so it could come in and wreak havoc as well...

 

I don't think your problem is with plot holes, but the entire ME series and Bioware...in which case instead of accusing everyone else of ignoring plot holes...maybe you should just go design your own solid plot that we can laugh at and point out all it's plotholes instead?

[greylord]

Fair enough, I could see that if you construe the plot such that the collectors aren't intended to be the massive threat that everyone in the game keeps saying they are, then it's not really a hole so much as a questionable plot direction. But I honestly think it's much more likely that BioWare were simply being very lazy writers. In either case, the collectors were a pretty feeble enemy and the second game felt like more of an excuse to have you do loyalty missions than any cohesive story.

 

What's interesting about your interpretation, though, is it makes the railroading of the player into TIM's service that much more frustrating - if you accept that BioWare intended the collectors not to be a genuine threat, then you are essentially stuck playing the part of an intensely gullible hero being transparently exploited with no way of doing things properly. It also sort of brings up the question of why not a single character in-game has the wits to ask "why are we worrying about these guys when they only have a single ship that can't even deal with defense turrets?"

 

You've still left unanswered the question of what sense it makes, of all possible ways to prepare for a suicide mission whose conditions you know nothing about, to go about gathering crew members and solving their personal problems. This simply seems like a very, very stupid course of action to me. I'm all ears for possible explanations.

 

The collectors were taking away Human colonists to who knows where in large numbers. No one could get to them. They'd zoom in and out before anyone could touch them. TIM was willing to do something about it, and he raised Shepard in order to do this. Shepard did it because he saw that there was a threat...and TIM was willing to give him the materials to deal with it. No one else was.

 

That's not a plot hole, that you see one there is your own head trying to be an anti-bio-fanboy...more than I'm a Bioware fanboy.

 

Next, Shep is given a NEW ship, bigger, stronger and better than the one that the Collectors blew up. It is outfitted with the LATEST technology with weapons, stealth, and everything else. It's like comparing a frigate from WWI with a Cruiser of the Modern era...which do you think is better? Do you really think a cruiser of our era couldn't take on a Dreadnought of WWI? Or even stand a chance?

 

What you've missed is the reasons and motivations behind it all...which is guesswork, but probably not too much off...

 

 

 

 

TIM isn't as concerned about the Collectors...they may be creating a new Reaper...but that's hardly going to take all of humanity. Now if they were creating hundreds of new reapers...that could take all of humanity. This one is probably only going to be used to try to re-open the Citadel portal...much like Sovereign. Afterall...try, try, try again...even if you fail once who knows...you've weakened the enemy and maybe this time you'll be lucky. At least that's the Collector's role. TIM is more concerned with getting their technology and using it to the Humans advantage. You destroy the Collectors, foil their plans, and he get's their tech along the way...win, win, win for him. He only turns things over to you when they get out of hand or he can't get it any other way. The ONLY way he sees of getting the stuff on the other side of Omega 4 relay is if Shepard is REALLY lucky in a suicide mission. If you blow up the Collector Base of course you upset him, that was TIM REAL goal the entirety of the game! Who cares that who ever investigates this type of technology will probably be subverted to the Reaper's doing...it's likely that TIM has some idea to use their technology and combine it with humanity in order to gain the advantage.

 

Shep is more concerned with simply stopping the Reaper threat this time before it comes again in Sovereign form. Whether you help or hinder the illusive man in his real goal is determined by you at the end.

 

As for the Normandy surviving...yes...it was better as I pointed out above...but in truth it's because it's RAILROADED into the plot. It would be rather absurd to have you go to the other side and simply blow up afterwards. So instead you have that action scene where you can have some of the crew die if you didn't prepare...and then no matter how well you prepared or not...you STILL crash (just as gaping a plot hole to you as it taking on the Collector's ship...but you didn't point out that it crashes regardless of what you choose...hence you aren't really concerned about it as a plot hole...but as something merely to whine about)...why...because it's on railroads to make it EXCITING. Something that helps move a game along. Surviving is good so you can actually get into the shooter portion of the game...and crashing is far more exciting than landing gently and nicely in a safe specific spot.

 

 

 

 

Overall, I don't really care what you want in your ME games...as I think your ideas of what ME is and what ME is to the rest of us is so far separate as to be different games. So far all I've really heard is "I don't like Bioware or the ME series and so I want to try to find anything that I can possibly hope to imagine and then blow my imagination up and pretend that it's real so I can make my imaginary plot holes real plotholes!"

 

Your imagination is vivid...but not convincing me at all. Maybe if you had less whine and opinion and more objectivity...I might have more inclination to actually see a plothole, but thus far you haven't really pointed out anything that is actually seriously a plot hole.

 

Little problems with the setting would be things like...we went into the vacuum of space and I had a full suit on as well as my other team mate...but Jack...she just had her coveralls and a mask over her face...perhaps something should have happened to her eyes and other things.

 

Plotholes would be a little bigger such as...I shot Wrex and killed him dead in ME1...so why is Wrex sitting around alive in ME2...did he get ressurected by TIM too? (Note: I actually haven't run into this bug...but just saying...if Wrex was alive in ME2 after I shot him in ME1...I could see that as a possible plothole).

 

PS: As far as the Normandy goes, it's a bigger problem that the original was shot down in the first place than the second one surviving. Think about it...ME1...the original Normandy SURVIVES A REAPER (far worse then a collector ship), and not only survives, but if the right actions are taken is INSTRUMENTAL IN TAKING DOWN A REAPER! Think about that...a smaller, less armed ship survives and takes on a reaper...and you have a problem with a bigger, better, stronger ship surviving something far weaker than a Reaper...

 

I'm not seeing a plothole with the game so much as a hole of black vacuumous space where the thought goes in that there's any sort of plothole in that the second Normandy could stand at least a small chance of surviving.

Edited February 6, 2012 by greylord

[Oblarg]

Honestly, greylord, I don't know why I'm bothering to respond to you when you're seemingly not interested in reasoned discussion so much as baseless ad-hominem. Still, here goes:

 

The collectors were taking away Human colonists to who knows where in large numbers. No one could get to them. They'd zoom in and out before anyone could touch them. TIM was willing to do something about it, and he raised Shepard in order to do this. Shepard did it because he saw that there was a threat...and TIM was willing to give him the materials to deal with it. No one else was.

 

Again, you're missing the point. The collectors, as they were presented, were incapable of attacking anything more than defenseless fringe colonies in the Terminus systems, because their entire fleet consisted of one fairly weak cruiser (rationalize away, but nothing changes the fact that your frigate, unupgraded, is able to destroy it in the final battle) and a collection of floating eyeballs. They were even driven off by a few defense cannons on Horizon. How, pray tell, would the Collectors even come close to accomplishing their goal of finishing the human reaper without the capability to penetrate alliance space?

 

Next, Shep is given a NEW ship, bigger, stronger and better than the one that the Collectors blew up. It is outfitted with the LATEST technology with weapons, stealth, and everything else. It's like comparing a frigate from WWI with a Cruiser of the Modern era...which do you think is better? Do you really think a cruiser of our era couldn't take on a Dreadnought of WWI? Or even stand a chance?

 

Right now you're just showing your own ignorance of Mass Effect lore. The Normandy version II is still a *frigate.* From the Codex:

 

Frigates are light escort and scouting vessels. They often have extensive GARDIAN systems to provide anti-fighter screening for capital ships, and carry a squad of marines for security and groundside duty. Unlike larger vessels, frigates are able to land on planets.

The most important role filled by frigates is reconnaissance. Sensors, unlike ships and communications employing the mass effect, are limited to the speed of light, therefore a stationary observer can detect a vessel a light year away only when its light year arrives a year later.

Because faster than-light attackers always arrive before defenders can detect them with luminal sensors, attackers can always surprise defenders. For defense, fleets surround themselves with spheres of scouting frigates scanning for enemy ships and transmitting warnings to the main body.

Frigates achieve high FTL cruise speeds because of their high-performance drives. They also have proportionally larger thrusters and lighter design mass, allowing them greater maneuverability. In combat, speed and maneuverability make frigates immune to long-range fire of larger vessels.

In fleet combat, frigates are organized into "wolf pack" flotillas of four to six. Wolf packs speed through enemy formations, hunting enemy vessels whose kinetic barriers have been taken down by fighter-launched disruptor torpedoes. The wolf pack circle-strafes vulnerable targets, using their superior speed and maneuverability to evade return fire.

 

Now, your frigate is not particularly special, as far as combat goes. The Normandy SR-2, unupgraded, is spec'd to the original Normandy (which, if you'll recall, is built for stealth and minor skirmishes, not for pitched combat), minus the size changes and a few other misc. upgrades (leather seats? haha) - you'd know this, too, if you paid attention to the dialog in-game. Now, explain to me, if such a vessel is able to destroy what is revealed to be the only collector cruiser, how exactly were the collectors much of a threat at all? Perhaps the reason the Alliance wasn't doing anything about the abducted colonies was because the collectors were a chicken**** excuse for an enemy - Zoraptor's theory is certainly more reasonable here than just accepting that somehow the Normandy is a super-ship and Joker is a super-pilot and somehow Shepard & Co. were able to do with one reconaissance frigate what the alliance wouldn't have been able to do with, you know, an actual fleet?

 

So a cruiser class and battle ship class is not battle ready...and you have the best pilot in the galaxy...sure...dream on....

 

Plus, even with that you still have to fight them off in your hull because they're trying to board you instead of out and out destroy you apparantly in your approach...and you STILL crash land...

 

What the **** are you even saying here? None of that is relevant. You can defeat the collector ship with the unupgraded Normandy. The Normandy is a single frigate. The systems alliance has a very large fleet. What threat did the collectors legitimately pose to human space?

 

 

I think you'd side with the council in ME1 and ME2...afterall you probably didn't consider Sovereign a threat until it attacked the council, and probably would have let the reaper be created so it could come in and wreak havoc as well...

 

I don't think your problem is with plot holes, but the entire ME series and Bioware...in which case instead of accusing everyone else of ignoring plot holes...maybe you should just go design your own solid plot that we can laugh at and point out all it's plotholes instead?

 

The irony here is that I haven't accused anyone of anything - I voiced my opinion on the game, and you jumped down my throat at a perceived attack on your love of the game. If your best argument is really nothing more than "well, you couldn't write better!" then you shouldn't bother replying in the first place. Christ, from the animosity you're showing you'd think I insulted your mother or something, not simply disagreed with you about the writing in a video game. Grow up.

 

Your imagination is vivid...but not convincing me at all. Maybe if you had less whine and opinion and more objectivity...I might have more inclination to actually see a plothole, but thus far you haven't really pointed out anything that is actually seriously a plot hole.

 

Well, this is rich - the guy spouting the ad-hominem has the balls to also demand "less whine and opinion and more objectivity." Go figure.

 

Plotholes would be a little bigger such as...I shot Wrex and killed him dead in ME1...so why is Wrex sitting around alive in ME2...did he get ressurected by TIM too? (Note: I actually haven't run into this bug...but just saying...if Wrex was alive in ME2 after I shot him in ME1...I could see that as a possible plothole).

 

So anything short of an outright break in the narrative's continuity is not really a plot hole? Glad to see you have such high standards.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Oblarg

[Gorth]

To be fair, the collectors do have one thing that makes them a seemingly formidable foe. They can do hit and run attacks at will, as without the navigational equipment, nobody can give chase through the relays. As a gamer, you know/suspect their strength (or lack of), but only after passing through the relay to their base can you confirm that they are indeed not a military threat in a conventional warfare scenario. Never mind what their covert activities may or may not amount to on a strategic level in conflict.

[Oblarg]

To be fair, the collectors do have one thing that makes them a seemingly formidable foe. They can do hit and run attacks at will, as without the navigational equipment, nobody can give chase through the relays. As a gamer, you know/suspect their strength (or lack of), but only after passing through the relay to their base can you confirm that they are indeed not a military threat in a conventional warfare scenario. Never mind what their covert activities may or may not amount to on a strategic level in conflict.

 

Well, yeah, I wouldn't have a problem with the Collectors being a small hit-and-run force were it not for the fact that several of the characters outright state that they'd have to target earth to complete their human reaper, something which, given Earth's defenses and the minute scale of the Collector force, seems an outright impossibility. Once again, this seems like an oversight, not an intentional feature - BioWare could very well prove me wrong in ME3, but that opens a whole new can of worms as to why everyone in ME2 (most importantly Shepard) seems to labor under the illusion that the Collectors somehow pose a legitimate threat to alliance space (rather than simply the fringe colonies).

 

It seems the options here are that the Collectors are stupidly weak and could not have ever completed their plans, or that Shepard and everyone he works with are effectively braindead for the entirety of ME2. I'm honestly not sure which of these I dislike the least.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Oblarg

[Gorth]

To be fair, the collectors do have one thing that makes them a seemingly formidable foe. They can do hit and run attacks at will, as without the navigational equipment, nobody can give chase through the relays. As a gamer, you know/suspect their strength (or lack of), but only after passing through the relay to their base can you confirm that they are indeed not a military threat in a conventional warfare scenario. Never mind what their covert activities may or may not amount to on a strategic level in conflict.

 

Well, yeah, I wouldn't have a problem with the Collectors being a small hit-and-run force were it not for the fact that several of the characters outright state that they'd have to target earth to complete their human reaper, something which, given Earth's defenses and the minute scale of the Collector force, seems an outright impossibility. Once again, this seems like an oversight, not an intentional feature - BioWare could very well prove me wrong in ME3, but that opens a whole new can of worms as to why everyone in ME2 (most importantly Shepard) seems to labor under the illusion that the Collectors somehow pose a legitimate threat to alliance space (rather than simply the fringe colonies).

 

It seems the options here are that the Collectors are stupidly weak and could not have ever completed their plans, or that Shepard and everyone he works with are effectively braindead for the entirety of ME2. I'm honestly not sure which of these I dislike the least.

I lean towards one or more oversights in coordinating the story. Just as a thought experiment, if we assume the Collectors are not acting on their own, but being manipulated by the reapers like sock puppets (assuming control), a possible use for the reaper they are building (the giant T2 robot), could be a fifth columnist infiltrator Reaper, something like Sovereigns replacement, which would be a completely different level of threat. We don't know if they intended to harvest all of humanity first or just enough to finish the current WIP reaper (and then possess a completely different magnitude of firepower).

 

Yes. the story has too many holes to really connect the dots. Maybe some of the DLC/Comics ties up the loose ends better?

[Oblarg]

Just as a thought experiment, if we assume the Collectors are not acting on their own, but being manipulated by the reapers like sock puppets (assuming control), a possible use for the reaper they are building (the giant T2 robot), could be a fifth columnist infiltrator Reaper, something like Sovereigns replacement, which would be a completely different level of threat. We don't know if they intended to harvest all of humanity first or just enough to finish the current WIP reaper (and then possess a completely different magnitude of firepower).

 

The thing is, even were we to discard the lines about how they'd need to target earth to finish their reaper (in fact, let's be super-generous and say that they can do it without entering alliance space and thus without really risking their only cruiser and still being able to play to their strengths), it's still unclear what a new reaper would do. Sure, they could fling it at the Citadel and hope it fares better than Sovereign, but really, is that sound strategy? Especially coming from a hyper-advanced machine race? You'd think they'd have a better Plan B than "try the same thing over again and hope it actually works this time." Remember, as well, that in ME2 the conduit is deactivated - so it's unclear how they'd activate the relay in the first place without being able to get someone on the inside to take Citadel control (Saren's job in the first game, and the entire reason he spent so much effort searching for the conduit). So, even if we were to A) assume that the collectors could finish the reaper with only colonists from lightly guarded systems and B) further accept that trying to take the Citadel again with the new reaper is sound strategy (both assumptions require you to ignore quite a bit of the narrative and/or to cease critical thinking), it's not even clear that they could activate the citadel relay at this point to begin with.

 

The really frustrating thing is that none of these problems would be particularly hard to write around - a few changes could make the plot a whole lot stronger and more believable, but as it is ME2's plot just strikes me as several partially-developed ideas strung together without any rigorous proof-reading. Good concepts are not enough - you have to implement them properly, and BioWare really dropped the ball there.

[Gorth]

The really frustrating thing is that none of these problems would be particularly hard to write around - a few changes could make the plot a whole lot stronger and more believable, but as it is ME2's plot just strikes me as several partially-developed ideas strung together without any rigorous proof-reading. Good concepts are not enough - you have to implement them properly, and BioWare really dropped the ball there.

Well, plotholes or not, I did enjoy large parts of the game despite a number of shortcomings. Lets face it, the game was based on the idea that it should be about companion missions and somebody somewhere needed to come up with a pretext why you should move from the start of the game to the end of the game. Since there is a law somewhere that states that modern games needs mini games and boss fights, they had to throw in that too, plus the mandatory big baddie at the end. Lets make it a human shaped baddie just for dramatic effect, people probably won't care too much about trivial details when getting to this point in the game. Nothing exceptional really, it being tried a tested formula, not only in Bioware games. Heck, a number of Obsidian games do it too, following those written and unwritten conventions. The difference is in the window dressing.

 

My biggest plot complaint was, why the heck should I... *I* for effins sake, Sheppard II "Reaperslayer", the Chosen one, waste 50% of my precious time that I should have spent as "quality time" together with Yeoman Chambers in my bunk, saving the galaxy, be spent on doing geological surveys of random space rocks? Something any Cerberus clerk with a few graduate astro-geologists could do in the background

[WorstUsernameEver]

Mass Effect 2 has horrible storytelling choices (not necessarily plot holes) and yet we're focusing on the ship class of the Normandy? Oh man.

[Bos_hybrid]

1. Shepard working for TIM:

 

For plot purposes. Other examples include: Why did you have to play K1 not knowing the PC is Revan, when for most of the game you knew you were? Why did I have to have Kreia for 3/4 of K2 despite knowing she was going to betray me? I could go on and on.

 

And of course he and Cerberus are the only ones that actually believe the reapers exist.(ie bio writing everyone else stupid)

 

2. Spending the entire game recruiting a "team":

 

So you have the ability to deal with whatever lies behind Omega 4 relay? Could it of been done better/smarter? Yes, bio should of had you finding these allies while searching for clues about the collectors, and finding allies that could provide military aid(ie ships/armies). But then we would of been repeating ME1 and Kotors theme and touching on ME3s theme.

 

Again not a plothole but a design/story decision you don't agree with.

 

3. The loyalty system

 

You said it yourself, not a plothole. As to whether personal issues getting in the way of things, they do. Not saying Bio couldn't of done it better then Tali taking a rocket to the face because she had flotilla issues. Having said that, staying alive would require focus and personal dramas can cause a lack of focus. A better way of doing it imo would of been, resolving Tali's flotilla issue, was part of obtaining adv Quarian shielding.

 

4. The Derelict Reaper

 

You are talking about the same council that was hit by a reaper attack and still refuses to believe they exist, as anything more than a powerful vessel obtained by a rogue spectre. Showing them the derelict reaper would of probably got the 'another powerful ship' response, not their belief in the reaper threat.

 

Again perhaps a better plothole would be the writing of unbelievably stupid leaders of advance civilizations. *Looks at current world leaders* Maybe not so unbelievable.

 

5. The Collector Plan

 

1. Normandy = Enterprise/Defiant/Voyager. Destroyed for emotional purposes, otherwise invincible.

 

2. Maguffin advancements the Normandy can recieve before the confrontation. (The collector ship should of destroyed Normandy without these enhancements with a critical failure screen, however the bitching done by gamers had this been the case would of been......)

 

3. The main threat of the Collectors was there abilty to hit a planet harvest the population and leave before anyone noticed. (Yeah the, OMG there going for Eath was stupid unnecessary drama) Would also like to point out, that it was Shep and his companions that came to this conclusion, can't remeber any statement from the collectors or Harbinger stating it was. In fact the Collectors method of assault, attacking remote colonies, would indicate that they do realize they could not hit Earth, otherwise that would of been hit first.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Bos_hybrid

[Zoraptor]

Well, yeah, I wouldn't have a problem with the Collectors being a small hit-and-run force were it not for the fact that several of the characters outright state that they'd have to target earth to complete their human reaper, something which, given Earth's defenses and the minute scale of the Collector force, seems an outright impossibility.

That seems to be primarily shlock space opera staple- Earth is in Danger, Stay Tuned For More!!! though if I play ME2 again some time I may pay a bit more attention to who is talking about Earth being hit and what they say exactly, and whether it comes from TIM directly or indirectly. Otherwise, the Collector's plan seemed to be the far more sensible kill off all the aliens on Omega and hit there next, rather than Earth. That would certainly make more sense given the Collector's apparent weakness at direct confrontation.

[HoonDing]

Mass Effect 2 has horrible storytelling choices (not necessarily plot holes) and yet we're focusing on the ship class of the Normandy? Oh man.

The best one was Shepard and Co taking a shuttle after getting the Reaper homing beacon so that the entire crew of the Normandy could get kidnapped and Joker have his moment of glory.

Edited February 6, 2012 by virumor

[Drowsy Emperor]

Any attempt to seriously analyse the logic behind Mass Effect stories will lead to Wrex sized brain tumor. You have been warned.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Drowsy Emperor

[Morgoth]

The best one was Shepard and Co taking a shuttle after getting the Reaper homing beacon so that the entire crew of the Normandy could get kidnapped and Joker have his moment of glory.

Ah yes. That was kinda weird. Was it ever explained why Shep and his henchmen took off with a Shuttle while the Nromandy was then ravaged by the Protheans? It felt totally cheap. I expected better from a developer who prides itself having a "professional" writer-army working on their games.

[Oner]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/115686-BioWare-Dont-Get-Rid-of-Mass-Effect-3-Saves

[Orogun01]

The best one was Shepard and Co taking a shuttle after getting the Reaper homing beacon so that the entire crew of the Normandy could get kidnapped and Joker have his moment of glory.

Ah yes. That was kinda weird. Was it ever explained why Shep and his henchmen took off with a Shuttle while the Nromandy was then ravaged by the Protheans? It felt totally cheap. I expected better from a developer who prides itself having a "professional" writer-army working on their games.

Maybe they were on a mission and could not be bothered by all the screaming on their comms to come back to the ship. I'm still shaky as to why the Collectors didn't just take the Normandy. You get the crew and leave Shep stranded in the middle of nowhere, man those Collectors are very dumb masterminds.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Orogun01

[Nepenthe]

Have to accept some levels of plot-induced stupidity. I particularly liked Cerberus putting their logo on the hull of the Normandy.

Already explained with the Hells Angels logo. Makes perfect sense.

 

The only thing that really bothered me about ME2 was that giant Terminator robot. Any so-called plot holes or inconsistencies, or any "forced" actions in ME2 were minor. So as long as ME3 doesn't have something as equal dumb looking, I won't complain.

Pretty much this. Though (even) the human Reaper didn't really lessen my enjoyment, could've been better handled.

 

 

 

..list

 

Only one of those (working with Cerberus) is a genuine plothole, the rest is just stuff you didn't like.

Glad I wasn't the only one thinking that.

 

Though I'm almost tempted to put Cerberus under "retcon" rather than plothole, it's so blatant.

 

The best one was Shepard and Co taking a shuttle after getting the Reaper homing beacon so that the entire crew of the Normandy could get kidnapped and Joker have his moment of glory.

Ah yes. That was kinda weird. Was it ever explained why Shep and his henchmen took off with a Shuttle while the Nromandy was then ravaged by the Protheans?

Yepp, you're going on a mission away from the Normandy which is restricted to sub-light travel due to the IFF integration process. Miranda has the genius idea of bringing everybody along, so you don't have to decide on your away team until the last moment. Plot-required stupidity, but not implausible.

[Tale]

Plot required stupidity two ways. The Collectors should have just blown the Normandy 2 up. It worked rather well the first time, why change?

 

This feels unsporting. Mass Effect has some plot problems. Whether it's plot holes, everyone being idiots when convenient, or the regular "this bleep doesn't make any sense." Not to be hyperbolic, but it's like picking on the infirm. We all know it can't fight back. Poor little guy.

 

Still, Bioware should be able to do better.

[greylord]

Honestly, greylord, I don't know why I'm bothering to respond to you when you're seemingly not interested in reasoned discussion so much as baseless ad-hominem. Still, here goes:

 

The collectors were taking away Human colonists to who knows where in large numbers. No one could get to them. They'd zoom in and out before anyone could touch them. TIM was willing to do something about it, and he raised Shepard in order to do this. Shepard did it because he saw that there was a threat...and TIM was willing to give him the materials to deal with it. No one else was.

 

Again, you're missing the point. The collectors, as they were presented, were incapable of attacking anything more than defenseless fringe colonies in the Terminus systems, because their entire fleet consisted of one fairly weak cruiser (rationalize away, but nothing changes the fact that your frigate, unupgraded, is able to destroy it in the final battle) and a collection of floating eyeballs. They were even driven off by a few defense cannons on Horizon. How, pray tell, would the Collectors even come close to accomplishing their goal of finishing the human reaper without the capability to penetrate alliance space?

 

Next, Shep is given a NEW ship, bigger, stronger and better than the one that the Collectors blew up. It is outfitted with the LATEST technology with weapons, stealth, and everything else. It's like comparing a frigate from WWI with a Cruiser of the Modern era...which do you think is better? Do you really think a cruiser of our era couldn't take on a Dreadnought of WWI? Or even stand a chance?

 

Right now you're just showing your own ignorance of Mass Effect lore. The Normandy version II is still a *frigate.* From the Codex:

 

Frigates are light escort and scouting vessels. They often have extensive GARDIAN systems to provide anti-fighter screening for capital ships, and carry a squad of marines for security and groundside duty. Unlike larger vessels, frigates are able to land on planets.

The most important role filled by frigates is reconnaissance. Sensors, unlike ships and communications employing the mass effect, are limited to the speed of light, therefore a stationary observer can detect a vessel a light year away only when its light year arrives a year later.

Because faster than-light attackers always arrive before defenders can detect them with luminal sensors, attackers can always surprise defenders. For defense, fleets surround themselves with spheres of scouting frigates scanning for enemy ships and transmitting warnings to the main body.

Frigates achieve high FTL cruise speeds because of their high-performance drives. They also have proportionally larger thrusters and lighter design mass, allowing them greater maneuverability. In combat, speed and maneuverability make frigates immune to long-range fire of larger vessels.

In fleet combat, frigates are organized into "wolf pack" flotillas of four to six. Wolf packs speed through enemy formations, hunting enemy vessels whose kinetic barriers have been taken down by fighter-launched disruptor torpedoes. The wolf pack circle-strafes vulnerable targets, using their superior speed and maneuverability to evade return fire.

 

Now, your frigate is not particularly special, as far as combat goes. The Normandy SR-2, unupgraded, is spec'd to the original Normandy (which, if you'll recall, is built for stealth and minor skirmishes, not for pitched combat), minus the size changes and a few other misc. upgrades (leather seats? haha) - you'd know this, too, if you paid attention to the dialog in-game. Now, explain to me, if such a vessel is able to destroy what is revealed to be the only collector cruiser, how exactly were the collectors much of a threat at all? Perhaps the reason the Alliance wasn't doing anything about the abducted colonies was because the collectors were a chicken**** excuse for an enemy - Zoraptor's theory is certainly more reasonable here than just accepting that somehow the Normandy is a super-ship and Joker is a super-pilot and somehow Shepard & Co. were able to do with one reconaissance frigate what the alliance wouldn't have been able to do with, you know, an actual fleet?

 

So a cruiser class and battle ship class is not battle ready...and you have the best pilot in the galaxy...sure...dream on....

 

Plus, even with that you still have to fight them off in your hull because they're trying to board you instead of out and out destroy you apparantly in your approach...and you STILL crash land...

 

What the **** are you even saying here? None of that is relevant. You can defeat the collector ship with the unupgraded Normandy. The Normandy is a single frigate. The systems alliance has a very large fleet. What threat did the collectors legitimately pose to human space?

 

 

I think you'd side with the council in ME1 and ME2...afterall you probably didn't consider Sovereign a threat until it attacked the council, and probably would have let the reaper be created so it could come in and wreak havoc as well...

 

I don't think your problem is with plot holes, but the entire ME series and Bioware...in which case instead of accusing everyone else of ignoring plot holes...maybe you should just go design your own solid plot that we can laugh at and point out all it's plotholes instead?

 

The irony here is that I haven't accused anyone of anything - I voiced my opinion on the game, and you jumped down my throat at a perceived attack on your love of the game. If your best argument is really nothing more than "well, you couldn't write better!" then you shouldn't bother replying in the first place. Christ, from the animosity you're showing you'd think I insulted your mother or something, not simply disagreed with you about the writing in a video game. Grow up.

 

Your imagination is vivid...but not convincing me at all. Maybe if you had less whine and opinion and more objectivity...I might have more inclination to actually see a plothole, but thus far you haven't really pointed out anything that is actually seriously a plot hole.

 

Well, this is rich - the guy spouting the ad-hominem has the balls to also demand "less whine and opinion and more objectivity." Go figure.

 

Plotholes would be a little bigger such as...I shot Wrex and killed him dead in ME1...so why is Wrex sitting around alive in ME2...did he get ressurected by TIM too? (Note: I actually haven't run into this bug...but just saying...if Wrex was alive in ME2 after I shot him in ME1...I could see that as a possible plothole).

 

So anything short of an outright break in the narrative's continuity is not really a plot hole? Glad to see you have such high standards.

 

Long post in which you really don't do anything. You brought up some made up concerns to begin with...so having someone contest them seems to make you more unhappy.

 

I'm not trying to convince you, I'm seeing if you have ANYTHING that convinces me of something, and thus far, you haven't.

 

You're goal was always to backup your statements that there were plotholes...plotholes that you haven't convinced me of at all. Most of your "plotholes" are more along the lines of...I didn't like this and so this is what is wrong...at least thus far with what you've provided.

 

Perhaps if you look for actual PLOTHOLES instead of things that you simply didn't care for, you may be more successful. As I stated before, I already realize that 99% of games out there have plotholes, that includes ME2. The problem is you haven't hit a single REAL plothole that is actually present (and they are there, and much more obvious) in the game, your list is more of a collection of things that you personally either don't like or think should have been done differently. There's a difference between what a plothole is, and what you didn't like and think should be done differently. That's why when discussing things that you simply didn't care for...if you think that strongly on them...you should go write your own stuff.

 

How about finding one actual...REAL plothole. I gave you an example of what one could be, and that actually is a rather strong indication of what one of the plotholes in the game could be...

 

Convince me of your problems with the actual plotholes instead of your dislikes and I'll probably be much more amenable...but I see it over and over where people try to attack a game or something based on their dislikes of something rather than real problems with the game (dislikes would be...I hated the graphics. Problems would be...the game uninstall program uninstalled my OS as well).

 

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I'm simply telling you why you haven't convinced me. You're the one that has the onus and put down the items originally...I wasn't convinced. I still am not. I'd say probably try a different plot hole since you don't seem to be going anywhere on the ones you listed and in fact are going in circles on your dislikes instead of anything convincing me of plotholes.

 

If you don't want to actually look at why you haven't convinced me and go a different route, go ahead and keep on not convincing...otherwise I've already told you why I'm not convinced...you don't need to go over the same things again.