Dragon Age 2

[entrerix]

game just felt like a rush job. they charged full price for it though, if it had been $30 no one would be complaining, but they tried to pass this off as a full fledged sequel when it was much more like an expansion pack with a new combat system.

Edited April 15, 2011 by entrerix

[Gromnir]

game just felt like a rush job. they charged full price for it though, if it had been $30 no one would be complaining, but they tried to pass this off as a full fledged sequel when it was much more like an expansion pack with a new combat system.

 

am not doubting that da2 were rushed. in spite of all the bio commentary 'bout improvements, so many o' the changes from da:o to da2 had the appearance o' being little more than resource saving moves to aid the developers in meeting a deadline. the change in the camera were clear not benefiting pc players. the adoption o' a dialogue wheel and a fixed protagonist may have been welcomed by some, but it also were a time-saver for the writers. recycling maps were also a resource saver. but some folks is checking their objectivity and sense o' fair-play at the door. the quote that folks is slamming mike for is not deserving venom. does it suck that da2 were a rush job? hell yeah... is why we were complaining for the year leading up to da2 release. nevertheless, recognizing that da2 were rushed, mike gots a choice 'tween recycling maps and giving players more quests, or using unique maps and cutting content. is a tough choice... is a no-win kinda choice. even so, as 'tween substantial cut content and recycled maps, we would choose map recycle.

 

and this ain't directed at enterix, but we believe that many folks is purposefully ignoring just how much me1 recycled. am not sure why that is so.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps you is wrong that nobody would be complaining if da2 were costing $30.

[Nepenthe]

I've also got the nagging feeling that the need (or urge ) to cram the game on a single x360 disc was another major reason for the heavy recycling of graphical assets. Not sure if it had a practical impact, or they could have done BG2 level audio compression on VO to free up more space etc.

[Amentep]

am not certain where the hate comes from on this issue. don't get us wrong, we do Hate some o' the things mike has done to the franchise, but recycling maps to so that more player quests were possible seems like a reasonable point to debate, and is a tough choice to be making. having not played da2 we don't know the degree to which maps were recycled, but we assume it were substantial to be causing so much venom. nevertheless, bio recycling o' maps has been common in many o' their offerings. bg, bg2 and mass effect is all games that used considerable recycle. heck, look at iwd 2. the obsidian developers recycled much o' their iwd maps no doubt to be saving resources.

 

more quests at the expense o' recycled maps?

 

some other mike nonsense regarding end bosses, camera pov, and the bio reliance on, and misinterpretation of, data mining makes us a little queasy. even so, the statement you folks quote is hardly gonna inspire our hate... 'cause is sounding like a reasonable design choice with no perfect solution. yeah, after the first mass effect game one would assume that bio had recognized that their fans could only tolerate so much map recycling. biowarians can be inordinate obtuse. nevertheless, it would be interesting to hear just how much content bio estimated would needed to have been cut if all unique maps were incorporated.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Perhaps this will give you a clue on how much they reused maps.

 

There is ONE cave map that basically is used for just about every cave. It's a nice long cave...but is probably re-used for EVERY cave in the game. One map. So this guy is saying they only had time for ONE map?

 

A similar issue is with simple buildings in Kirkwall...they basically have ONE warehouse layout used for EVERY Warehouse/Building. I lost count how many times I went to that building. Literally...I have NO idea how many times I went in that one building. Oh...it's a different quest and supposedly different building...but it looks the same. I think they reused that building more than they reused the infamous two buildings that they had for generic planet quests in Mass Effect 1! (they used the cave less though then those two buildings in ME1).

 

Overall, I can see the guy's point...but they kind of went to the extreme of reusing in DA2. REALLY to the extreme. Imagine if in BG2...every building was EXACTLY the same. When you go in the palace, or the the Dark Elf levels...they all are the same since they all use the same map. The small dwellings in BG2 were sort of like this...but nothing on the scale they did it with DA2.

 

IMO of course.

 

The cave map uses a door system to block off sections of the cave and paths in the caves. I thought that was a nice solution to the reuse of maps, because you couldn't ever be sure of the path in the cave despite it being the same map.

 

There are two "warehouse" maps, each with four doors and two linked rooms that could be blocked off (although a bit more obvious).

 

I actually had no problems with the reuse of the maps. Heck I didn't have a problem with it in ME1 either, so maybe I'm totally off the curve.

[HoonDing]

I'm getting John Romero vibes from Mike Laidlaw.

[Volourn]

The reused maps thing is one of my two pet peeves of DA2 but worthy of hate? That's silly talk. The guy was also pretty honest. they had a choice to make - either make more varied maps or have more actual content. If anyone shouldn be blamed for reused maps it's the BIO bosses since they're the ones who decided to make DA2 in 2 years not the 5 years it took to make DA1.

 

Still, funnily enough, despite its rushed development, DA2 is pretty much just as good as DA1. And, it's story and characters are much better than DA1.

 

TO KILL THE ARCHDEMON! GO!

[Niten_Ryu]

I actually had no problems with the reuse of the maps. Heck I didn't have a problem with it in ME1 either, so maybe I'm totally off the curve.

 

You are and generally many CRPG players are. But once you move into FPS or third person action adventure customer base, problems become apparent as soon as developers start slacking. From the early Tomb Raider games to Dooms and Quakes, the level design is difficult and nuanced craft with long history. From level design point of view you can easily compare something like Assassins Creed to Dragon Age and notice how far behind the curve Bioware is in this case. Mass Effect (recycled) levels were basically simple boxes, that if you have art assests like textures and object models, you could do the map in a day.

Example:

			o-----------------o-----|
		| stairs up		quest item room (up or downstairs, other or both doors might be sealed)
		|-----------------|-----|
		| 
		|-----------------|
		| add random
		|-----------------|
		| crap here
   -----|-----------------|
Entrance				  | 
   -----o-----------------O

 

Bioware got critique it deserved and corrected the situation for the Mass Effect 2. Maps are still generally not top of the line FPS quality, but easily acceptable (especially since you visit 'em once per run). Bioware teams don't communicate or ignore the advice from other team (not to mention 20+ years 3d level building tradition) since they did the same thing all over again in Dragon Age 2 and incorrecltly recycled the maps.

[Volourn]

No, they don't ignore each other and I'm sure they communicate. It was all about choice. But, I guess people prefer different maps and rather have less content. BIO should have made DA2 a 30 hour game instead of a 50+ hour game. That would have made people happy.

[Hassat Hunter]

Don't tell me Volourn actually believes the lies/excuses Bioware sprouts, right...

[Malcador]

I'm getting John Romero vibes from Mike Laidlaw.

 

Come on, he can't be THAT bad, surely.

[Minchi]

If i was making a rpg I would not used recycled maps...they would make the player think the game is all wrong o.o;;;

[Volourn]

"Don't tell me Volourn actually believes the lies/excuses Bioware sprouts, right... "

 

Ok, let's say laidlaw is lying. Why *did* BIO reuse maps in DA2? For fun? They thoguht it would make the game better? They were trolling their fanbase? Why? If BIO is lying about this what is the real reason, o knowledgeable one?

[Hassat Hunter]

You seriously think the LEVEL DESIGNERS/ART DESIGNERS went on to make quests, dialogue and other content for the game?

 

Then again; that might explain a few things...

[WorstUsernameEver]

You seriously think the LEVEL DESIGNERS/ART DESIGNERS went on to make quests, dialogue and other content for the game?

 

Then again; that might explain a few things...

 

I don't know how work is divided at Bioware but it's believable that, if nothing else, they transferred to other teams to work on other project.

 

That said, what matters is whether the final result is acceptable or not.

[Nightshape]

"Don't tell me Volourn actually believes the lies/excuses Bioware sprouts, right... "

 

Ok, let's say laidlaw is lying. Why *did* BIO reuse maps in DA2? For fun? They thoguht it would make the game better? They were trolling their fanbase? Why? If BIO is lying about this what is the real reason, o knowledgeable one?

 

It's an obvious resources decision, probably related to the short dev timeframe.

[Orogun01]

I actually think that from the beginning of the project it was meant to be on a tight deadline. It seems that they made a design plan based on an one year release date, which would explain most of their choices. Plus being BW they had to make it be as "epic" as they could make it.

[Labadal]

Even Varric makes a joke about the reused boss you fight in the exact same area. I liked the game, and I know other games use recycled areas, but this was the most obvious use of recycled areas in a long time.

[Volourn]

"It's an obvious resources decision, probably related to the short dev timeframe. "

 

Which is what laidlaw said. So... how is he lying?

[Morgoth]

People getting angry over recycled caves really need to change their hobby.

[Guest Slinky]

People getting angry over recycled caves really need to change their hobby.

Or the A of awesomeness wasn't quite awesome enough for them to distract them from the recycling?

 

It might not be a big deal for you, but for me repetitive areas are a huuuuge minus for the game.

[Nepenthe]

I actually think that from the beginning of the project it was meant to be on a tight deadline. It seems that they made a design plan based on an one year release date, which would explain most of their choices. Plus being BW they had to make it be as "epic" as they could make it.

 

Concur. Even the time-jumping narrative seems like a pretty blatant excuse to recycle the same main areas three times.

 

People getting angry over recycled caves really need to change their hobby.

I have a hard time believing that the recycling is the cause of the complaints, it's just an easy thing to fixate on.

[Volourn]

It is the cause of their complaints. If it wasn't, they wouldn't be complaining about it right?

[Amentep]

You seriously think the LEVEL DESIGNERS/ART DESIGNERS went on to make quests, dialogue and other content for the game?

 

Then again; that might explain a few things...

 

I don't know how work is divided at Bioware but it's believable that, if nothing else, they transferred to other teams to work on other project.

 

That said, what matters is whether the final result is acceptable or not.

 

I've wondered - considering the short development time and this is pure speculation - if Bioware had a plan for a Dragon Age direct sequel and EA wanted a DA followup in a short turnaround time and so they created a side-story that could set things up for the bigger story, shaved off a small team who, as their jobs wrapped, moved back to the other DA sequel team.

 

Still the reused maps didn't bother me - its not like my game enjoyment is tied up into how amazingly twisty the caverns are.

[meomao]

ps keep in mind that Gromnir were at the forefront o' those complaining that so many announced da2 features appeared to be little more than resource saving features. the entire approach the developers took regarding da2 bothered us and we complained when many others remained silent or asked for understanding. am disappointed with the da2 economy approach. that being said, the fact that the aforementioned quote results in hate does not appear justified.

 

Just wanted to say that while the game was in development I discussed with you once on the issue and I didn't agree with you and I was very defensive toward bio's position on the issue. Having played the game, I changed my mind and I must admit that I was wrong. DA2 is not a bad titlte and not Bioware's worse. There are some decisions that I don't understand (the amount of filler combat, the removal of most roleplaying aspect of DA:O and the way act. 3 is designed) but the game is not as bad as many people make it and I've got more fun than DA:O playing it. Still, it screams "rush" and "economic" from any point of view. So, you were right, sorry if I was so defensive (maybe you do not even remember but I think that it's honest to admit it).

[Nepenthe]

I've wondered - considering the short development time and this is pure speculation - if Bioware had a plan for a Dragon Age direct sequel and EA wanted a DA followup in a short turnaround time and so they created a side-story that could set things up for the bigger story, shaved off a small team who, as their jobs wrapped, moved back to the other DA sequel team.

 

Still the reused maps didn't bother me - its not like my game enjoyment is tied up into how amazingly twisty the caverns are.

Either that, or a major chunk of the DA team has been chipping in on The Old Republic.