Dragon Age 2

[Monte Carlo]

I think your very existence is offensive, Carlo.

Thanks

[Tale]

Demo doesn't appear to have ever been actually tuned.

[Volourn]

"if that is the case, then why did the biowarians allow such an approach in the demo? if vol is being truthful, then the demo demands is perplexing to say the least."

 

Don't get me wrong. Normal is very easy no doubt about it, and it requires little if anything. That's why I promtply switch to hard.

 

But, just pressing A will likely get you killed unless you depend soelly on party members to save you, and that likely won't work vs the first real ogre battle.

 

On hard, you have to be way more careful or companions will drop espicially since in many battles, enemies come from multiple directions sneaking in to get at your mage or archers.

 

Normal is the new easy but A = failure.

[mrmud]

It really bothers me that the only way to play with friendly fire on (and I really want it on or else it just turns into a zerg fest with no tactics) is to play on nightmare. The problem of course is that on nightmare you get stunlocked to death in an instant without being able to do anything about it.

[MrBrown]

Anyone know what's up with finishers? I don't think I've seen them. It's possible that they're in, but lacking a slowdown I've just never noticed.

 

Maybe they're cut-scene only.

 

Good riddance, I say.

[entrerix]

i assume we'll see a mod to fix the friendly fire, and allow more zoom out on the camera within the next week or so... didnt mods like that come fairly quickly for DAO

[Tale]

DAO also had a toolset.

[Azure79]

I've played until right after the deep roads expedition. I am playing on nightmare with a two handed warrior, mostly because I wanted friendly fire.

 

The biggest change I noticed from DAO is that DA2 plays like an action game. You can avoid enemy attacks by physically not being there when they swing. Bosses have special attacks that they charge up and unleash. You look for those clues and avoid accordingly.

 

Managing threat is very important. In DAO I never really felt in danger when warriors approached my mages. In DA2 warriors can stagger your weaker party members if they hit with enough force. This renders mages helpless unless that threat is directed somewhere else either through rogue subterfuge or through a warrior's brute force. Archers can also stagger weaker members so it becomes very important to know which enemies can do what and plan combat accordingly.

 

I can understand how waves can look silly, but I don't particurlarly mind it. I found it forces me to re-position or re-group my party and keeps combat from getting too stale.

 

I think the abilties are mostly the same from DAO, just revamped and re-organized. There are some new things, mostly from the rogue tree and I'm having fun finding out which skills complement each other. It becomes really thrilling when you hit a combo like - mages freeze/petrify spell makes enemy mini-boss brittle, your warrior does a killing blow that does 3 times more damage to brittle opponents while staggering lesser enemies in the area, then your rogue rushes in with attacks that are extremely deadly to staggered opponents. Suddenly a fight that was frustrating becomes is over in a flash. It's even more rewarding in nightmare because you have to position and time everything more closely so you don't kill your own party with friendly fire.

 

I do find it a lot more tactical and fun than DAO combat.

 

I can't say much about the story so far. It is a slow start and I just finished Act 1 (I think). The writers hit you with so much 'Are mages/chantry good/evil?' that I can tell where the story is heading in general. I think it will get a lot more interesting in general. There are some interesting sidequests and secondary quests. Some that even develop as you advance in different stages of the main story.

 

My main complaint is that while the environments look nice they are very repetitive. You'll be wandering around in the same cave or warehouse design for a lot of the quests. I do think certain sections of Kirkwall look very nice, especially the Gallows. I wish Bioware could have spent more time making each area more interesting and unique.

[WorstUsernameEver]

PCGames graphical comparison.

 

May be me, but the hi-res resolution look not only higher res, but completely different (albeit similar) compared to the lo-res.

[pmp10]

PCGames graphical comparison.

OT - this has been bothering me for a while: are we done with helmets?

Don't think I've seen a single one in screenshots so far.

[Tale]

There are helmets. There's just an option to turn them off and they're automatically off for cutscenes.

[Tigranes]

But, just pressing A will likely get you killed unless you depend soelly on party members to save you, and that likely won't work vs the first real ogre battle.

 

I'm interested by this, because when I watched videos of people fighting the first ogre, they could win on Normal by sitting there and smashing A A A A A A A then hitting whatever ability is avialable when the cooldown is over. After about 20 seconds of hack hack hack hack hack their health would go down and they'd shove in one healing potion, which would put them up to full.

 

But now I'm hearing DA2 does feature enemies that are both faster to kill and do more damage. I would like that if that were true. Which is it?

 

I'm also interested to know how DA2 combat can be more fun and tactical if you have waves of enemies that just drop on the screen. I mean, sometimes being ambushed is fine, but if you can't ever plan your approach, or plan how many enemies are remaining, but constantly just have to smash through enemies that drop on top of you, what's fun/tactical about it? Enlighten me.

[entrerix]

I've played until right after the deep roads expedition. I am playing on nightmare with a two handed warrior, mostly because I wanted friendly fire.

 

The biggest change I noticed from DAO is that DA2 plays like an action game. You can avoid enemy attacks by physically not being there when they swing. Bosses have special attacks that they charge up and unleash. You look for those clues and avoid accordingly.

 

Managing threat is very important. In DAO I never really felt in danger when warriors approached my mages. In DA2 warriors can stagger your weaker party members if they hit with enough force. This renders mages helpless unless that threat is directed somewhere else either through rogue subterfuge or through a warrior's brute force. Archers can also stagger weaker members so it becomes very important to know which enemies can do what and plan combat accordingly.

 

I can understand how waves can look silly, but I don't particurlarly mind it. I found it forces me to re-position or re-group my party and keeps combat from getting too stale.

 

I think the abilties are mostly the same from DAO, just revamped and re-organized. There are some new things, mostly from the rogue tree and I'm having fun finding out which skills complement each other. It becomes really thrilling when you hit a combo like - mages freeze/petrify spell makes enemy mini-boss brittle, your warrior does a killing blow that does 3 times more damage to brittle opponents while staggering lesser enemies in the area, then your rogue rushes in with attacks that are extremely deadly to staggered opponents. Suddenly a fight that was frustrating becomes is over in a flash. It's even more rewarding in nightmare because you have to position and time everything more closely so you don't kill your own party with friendly fire.

 

I do find it a lot more tactical and fun than DAO combat.

 

I can't say much about the story so far. It is a slow start and I just finished Act 1 (I think). The writers hit you with so much 'Are mages/chantry good/evil?' that I can tell where the story is heading in general. I think it will get a lot more interesting in general. There are some interesting sidequests and secondary quests. Some that even develop as you advance in different stages of the main story.

 

My main complaint is that while the environments look nice they are very repetitive. You'll be wandering around in the same cave or warehouse design for a lot of the quests. I do think certain sections of Kirkwall look very nice, especially the Gallows. I wish Bioware could have spent more time making each area more interesting and unique.

 

 

this is a good write up, I didn't know about those combos etc, and do hope they provide enough tactical/strategic elements to the combat that it doesnt devolve into mindless aaaaaaaaaa

[entrerix]

But, just pressing A will likely get you killed unless you depend soelly on party members to save you, and that likely won't work vs the first real ogre battle.

 

I'm interested by this, because when I watched videos of people fighting the first ogre, they could win on Normal by sitting there and smashing A A A A A A A then hitting whatever ability is avialable when the cooldown is over. After about 20 seconds of hack hack hack hack hack their health would go down and they'd shove in one healing potion, which would put them up to full.

 

 

 

i could well be wrong, but isnt that first ogre basically part of the games tutorial? how many tutorial bosses are really tough to kill?

 

also, i thought it was generally accepted nowadays that "normal" is easy, and "hard" is normal... who cares if AAAAAAAAAA works on normal if it doesnt work on Hard or Nightmare?

[Tigranes]

I play the hardest option on every new RPG now, yeah, but when a game is harder, it's also a lot more frustrating if the combat is badly designed. e.g. if Nightmare = 200% enemy HP, do you really want waves and waves of peekaboo enemies to take 2x longer to kill? That's why I want to hear how tactical people's experiences are so far.

[entrerix]

well ok that makes sense, did you read azure's write up on the last page? (i also quoted it on this page)

[MrBrown]

When you meet the first ogre, your guys are level 2 (or maybe 3?), and have exactly that amount of abilities, part of which might be passive, or not useful against the ogre. So, yes, the battle will be pretty boring.

 

Battles on higher levels rely much more on active abilities. On lower difficulty levels, you can probably get by mostly on using the Tactics-options, though.

 

 

 

EDIT:

 

In regards to what Azure wrote, I think there are some slight differences in DA2 that changes the roles each class can have. Namely, Warriors using Two-Handers mostly deal AoE damage, and thus are most useful in clearing out mobs rather than bosses. Mage base attacks seem to be a lot more powerful, so you don't necessarily want to constantly keep hitting that arcane bolt/lightning bolt -button like in DA:O

Edited March 9, 2011 by MrBrown

[Volourn]

"I'm interested by this, because when I watched videos of people fighting the first ogre, they could win on Normal by sitting there and smashing A A A A A A A then hitting whatever ability is avialable when the cooldown is over. After about 20 seconds of hack hack hack hack hack their health would go down and they'd shove in one healing potion, which would put them up to full."

 

That's what warriors do. That's what warriors did in DA1 as well. Do normal attacks and then use special talents when they come avialable. That still isn't just hitting A though, and like I said it also relies on your joinables to do work as well.

 

Normal is easy. No way a round that. You won't win or last if all you do is press A and use no other abilities or do anything else.

[Azure79]

But, just pressing A will likely get you killed unless you depend soelly on party members to save you, and that likely won't work vs the first real ogre battle.

 

I'm interested by this, because when I watched videos of people fighting the first ogre, they could win on Normal by sitting there and smashing A A A A A A A then hitting whatever ability is avialable when the cooldown is over. After about 20 seconds of hack hack hack hack hack their health would go down and they'd shove in one healing potion, which would put them up to full.

 

But now I'm hearing DA2 does feature enemies that are both faster to kill and do more damage. I would like that if that were true. Which is it?

 

I'm also interested to know how DA2 combat can be more fun and tactical if you have waves of enemies that just drop on the screen. I mean, sometimes being ambushed is fine, but if you can't ever plan your approach, or plan how many enemies are remaining, but constantly just have to smash through enemies that drop on top of you, what's fun/tactical about it? Enlighten me.

 

I can't say for the lower difficulty levels, but when enemies spawn there is usually a mix of low level grunts and more tougher lieutenants. The lower level grunts are easily dispatched. They do not have tons of HP. Usually one or two AOE attacks from my warrior or a few concentrated shots from my mages and archers will take care of them very quickly. The challenge is using your abilities accordingly to take them out quickly because those low level thugs are still a threat if they manage to concentrate their attacks on weaker party members. At the same time you have to threat manage the lieutenants and continuously keep them on the defensive so they don't break through your line.

 

A typical encounter for me goes like this. I usually have my two handed warrior, two mages and an archer. When I run into a combat encounter I first charge in with my warrior, usually using a special AOE attack so I generate threat. If there are archers I will head to them next hopefully carrying most of the crowd with me. When I'm surrounded I position my warrior so my next AOE ability hits the maximum of targets. This usually takes out most of the lower level thugs and most of the lieutenants are down to less then half health. At the same time my mages and archer are focus firing on lone enemy archers or mages. If warrior type enemy happens to go for my mages, I use the archer abilties to pin them or knock them down while my mages take them out with spells.

 

Usually the next wave jumps at this point, leaving me surrounded. What have to do is reposition my party and use the appropriate skills to get most of the threat back on my warrior. This can mean retreating to an alley or doorway that I can use as a choke point, or using rogue smoke bombs/mage spells to disorient large groups of mobs while my mages and archer retreat and my warrior advances again. I repeat the pattern I did before and usually the first wave of lieutenants will die while the second wave of lieutenants is again significantly weakened.

 

During this entire thing, I will react accordingly when opportunities for combos arise. If my warrior staggers multiple opponents I have my mage cast chain lightning which does a significant amount of damage to staggered opponents. My archer will use an ability that also does more damage to staggered opponents. Or my mage might petrify or freeze lieutenants. In that case a mighty blow from my warrior will cause huge damage and also hit any surrounding lesser enemies sometimes staggering them, so I can start a chain of combos again. You do have to upgrade some ablities before combos become really fun to pull off though.

 

The only enemies that seem to have a ludicrous amount of health are boss enemies and fantastic creatures like golems, dragons and demons. These enemies also have special skills that you have to adapt to. For example the Hayder battle (last battle in the demo) works a little differently in the full game. Hayder's default attack is able to knock you down with each hit, even warriors. So during that battle you have to kill all his underlings first then tackle him like an action game boss. You have to watch for his attacks, evade then rush in with attacks with your own. My party had been wiped except for my warrior and that's how I eventually beat him. It took a long time, but that was because I couldn't initiate any combos to speed up the process.

 

Of course the above scenario is the ideal approach. Usually is doesn't go that well I scramble to manage threat and take out enemies quickly. But it is rewarding and fun when you manage to pull of a fight really well.

[Nepenthe]

Strange, that seems a lot more strategic and tactical than DAO ever did.

[HoonDing]

Is there a mod that removes the enemy waves from the game?

[Tigranes]

I'd imagine it'd get terribly.... empty without the waves, since it sounds like a big portion of encounters involve them.

 

Azure you make it sound pretty interesting, can you still do spell combos and combo abilities between characters like in DAO? Do you tend to pause at all or just have one guy and run around?

[Nepenthe]

I'd imagine it'd get terribly.... empty without the waves, since it sounds like a big portion of encounters involve them.

 

Azure you make it sound pretty interesting, can you still do spell combos and combo abilities between characters like in DAO?

I think the idea is that you can only do combos between characters this time around. That all the three classes have a special "state" in which they put enemies, which the other two classes can take advantage of.

 

Also, I believe finishing animations are out.

 

Still a couple of hours away from getting it myself.

[trulez]

I started the game in Nightmare mode from the get go. I've now played my self to the city and I'm starting to regret it. All it does is turn every encounter into a kiting fest. I run around the enemies regenerating mana and blasting fire balls when they're ready, and that's how every fight goes. I haven't found a way to succesfully defeat any of the encounters with lieutenants or bosses without resorting to kiting, and what makes it worse is the fact that kiting is easy so the difficutly is not reallty even there.

Edited March 10, 2011 by trulez

[213374U]

Strange, that seems a lot more strategic and tactical than DAO ever did.

It does. Which begs the question why the demo doesn't show any of that, and is locked to "normal" difficulty.

 

It may be that they've done with DA2 what they did with ME2, where the depth of the combat gameplay isn't immediately apparent. From what folks are posting, that may well be the case. I like action games well enough and some of the things I've read are very interesting (LOS aggro, physically avoiding attacks), but encounter design systematically based on waves and no friendly fire are serious turnoffs for me. Also it looks like they have finally given up on balancing a game that uses the same ruleset for the player and enemy NPCs - I can't say I like "boss mob" shenanigans, but I guess it's forgivable if the end result is fun. I wonder if they are planning on releasing a toolset. From what I read on the Bioboards, enabling FF is not as simple as editing a 2DA.