British Navy...

[cronicler]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/12/01/3081074.htm (The other bit about HMS Ark Royal)

 

Just found about this. My condolences to you Walsh, old chap.

[Rosbjerg]

Wow, love the "add to cart" option ..

 

They have some cheap computers for sale though.

[Raithe]

It's just one of those things.. I'm wondering if the Lib-Dems are pushing that. I hate to generalise, but they do tend to push a lot of the fuzzy-left version of pacifism.

[Gfted1]

Under deep defence cuts announced by Britain's coalition government last month, the Royal Navy's flagship, the aircraft carrier Ark Royal, will be scrapped, leaving Britain unable to fly fixed-wing jets from an aircraft carrier until new carriers are delivered over the next decade.

 

Holy crap!

[cronicler]

Explanation; the news in the link is not actually the really self stabbing aspect. The Invincible is an old and obsolete design, the scrapping of Ark Royal is actually the serious blow to English power, as they don't have anything to replace it.

[Zoraptor]

It would be holy crap, if true, but those aren't quite the accurate facts...

 

It's actually worse than that. The new ACs will be launched/ delivered relatively soon (~2 years or so for the first one, IIRC) but will only have aircraft bought for them in around a decades time. Prior to that the ACs will be basically helicopter carriers. Overall it's a bit like building tanks then running out of money to give them a main gun so having some highly expensive mobile machine gun nests until the Big Cannons are delivered a decade later.

 

If you go by the length of time the last batch of British ACs lasted (~30 years) they will be spending a quarter+ of their active service life without aircraft.

[Guard Dog]

Right about now Argentina is thinking"Hmmmm if we only had air superiority back in '82"

[Darth InSidious]

Not only that, but the planes we're ordering IIRC won't fit the new carriers - particularly given that they require a 'catapult' mechanism to launch.

[Arkan]

The British Navy: If you thought the American Navy was gay....

Edited December 7, 2010 by Arkan

[I want teh kotor 3]

Do want.

[Humanoid]

To be fair, the next decade starts in about 3 weeks.

[Humodour]

To be fair, the next decade starts in about 3 weeks.

 

But I zero index.

[Moose]

Still, at least we still have the most powerful anti-air ship in the world:

 

 

- Sadly the defences on this ship are not working "due to problems with the Aster missiles".

[CoM_Solaufein]

How sad for a former great empire. England was known for ruling the oceans now they have to pawn off their ships.

[Gfted1]

On the bright side, with these austerity measures England will be flush with cash and in 15 years or so when weve run our country into the ground we can reach out to our good buddies across the pond for a loan to keep China from sending over people to beat us up.

[Humodour]

On the bright side, with these austerity measures England will be flush with cash and in 15 years or so when weve run our country into the ground we can reach out to our good buddies across the pond for a loan to keep China from sending over people to beat us up.

 

Indeed. I think this is a good thing.

 

What I'm far more annoyed about is the stupidly large increase in university fees for UK students. University should be free or heavily subsidised. Find other spending cuts to make you bastards, like this ship!

[Guard Dog]

On the bright side, with these austerity measures England will be flush with cash and in 15 years or so when weve run our country into the ground we can reach out to our good buddies across the pond for a loan to keep China from sending over people to beat us up.

 

Indeed. I think this is a good thing.

 

What I'm far more annoyed about is the stupidly large increase in university fees for UK students. University should be free or heavily subsidised. Find other spending cuts to make you bastards, like this ship!

Of course it should. Because universites don't cost anything do they? I mean, all those professors and lab intructors and campus staff, they work for free right? Capus facilities and equioment like research labs and the money to fund them, that just grows up from the ground right? The day college is free is the day a degree becomes worthless.

[Oblarg]

On the bright side, with these austerity measures England will be flush with cash and in 15 years or so when weve run our country into the ground we can reach out to our good buddies across the pond for a loan to keep China from sending over people to beat us up.

 

Indeed. I think this is a good thing.

 

What I'm far more annoyed about is the stupidly large increase in university fees for UK students. University should be free or heavily subsidised. Find other spending cuts to make you bastards, like this ship!

Of course it should. Because universites don't cost anything do they? I mean, all those professors and lab intructors and campus staff, they work for free right? Capus facilities and equioment like research labs and the money to fund them, that just grows up from the ground right? The day college is free is the day a degree becomes worthless.

 

It shouldn't be free, no, but what would be wrong with subsidizing college? Certainly better than those ****ing ethanol subsidies which no one is ever going to get rid of because our government is completely incompetent. Seems to me that it would be quite a worthy investment to spend taxpayer money on educating more people.

[Walsingham]

Three things with the carriers:

 

1. MoD were told they had to make cuts. No buts.

 

2. The nature of the carrier contracts was such that they would cost more to cancel than to keep.*

 

3. Taking a slightly wishful view of current affairs there is little propsect of us needing a carrier in the foreseeable mid term future.

 

So, I don't like the decision, but I like it a lot more than the decision to scrap desperately needed infantry battalions.

 

BTW, your tank analogy is rather apposite. The Germans decided to commission the mk III and IV panzers with small guns to save expense and industry. Later in the war these were upgunned and served pretty well.

 

 

 

*The fact that some MPs have argued we shouldn't sign contracts of this nature gives me the screaming abdabs. Companies, and the employees of companies have a right to know if an investment of millions into infrastructure and staff and training might just evaporate.

[Humodour]

On the bright side, with these austerity measures England will be flush with cash and in 15 years or so when weve run our country into the ground we can reach out to our good buddies across the pond for a loan to keep China from sending over people to beat us up.

 

Indeed. I think this is a good thing.

 

What I'm far more annoyed about is the stupidly large increase in university fees for UK students. University should be free or heavily subsidised. Find other spending cuts to make you bastards, like this ship!

Of course it should. Because universites don't cost anything do they? I mean, all those professors and lab intructors and campus staff, they work for free right? Capus facilities and equioment like research labs and the money to fund them, that just grows up from the ground right? The day college is free is the day a degree becomes worthless.

 

The services they provide to society and the economy as well as upward mobility opportunities to individuals far outweigh the benefits. But I would expect nothing less from a fringe laissez faire extremist like you.

 

In Australia almost all universities are government owned. They are very autonomous and provide heavily subsidised fees to university students. They run as businesses and consistently tend to make profits each year (from research monetisation and non-subsidised international student fees) which are funnelled back into research and service upgrades. Last I checked Australia had the highest percentage of the population with university qualifications of any country in the OECD.

 

Perhaps if America wants to improve its standing in the world for education and scientific advancement it could take a leaf from our book. But with people like you chanting "DOWN WITH GOVERNMENT" at every opportunity, I doubt America will be able to stem its downward slide in this area any time soon.

 

The day college is free is the day a degree becomes worthless.

 

Perhaps the only the rich should be allowed an elite education would you say?

Edited December 8, 2010 by Krezack

[Darth InSidious]

On the bright side, with these austerity measures England will be flush with cash and in 15 years or so when weve run our country into the ground we can reach out to our good buddies across the pond for a loan to keep China from sending over people to beat us up.

Clearly, you are not familiar with British economics.

 

First of all, these aren't 'austerity measures': these cuts have the purpose of fulfilling an ideological obsession with being heirs to Thatcher amongst a generation of Tories just old enough to start rising in their party as their party started falling. They have bugger all to do with the actual deficit - while we're ruthlessly cutting public spending, we're equally letting more cash fly out of the window in tax breaks for the super-rich and their companies. That's the sort of super-rich who are now in government, and the sort of company whose fat-cats we're co-opting in as 'special advisors' to the government.

 

Second, these cuts are only severe enough to ensure that in at least ten years at best we'll have a Labour government whose first act will be to ratchet up public spending as every publicly-funded building in the country will be falling down and there will be millions unemployed and unemployable, while Cameron, Osborne, Philip Green et al are still quaffing Chateau Petrus. Third, our GDP is a tenth of that of the US. We couldn't afford to loan you anything like the cash you'd need.

 

Edit to add: Given the parlous state of American higher education, in particular the arts, humanities, and social sciences, and the near-total elimination of any serious public thought that has resulted (to say nothing of the state of public thought in the UK at present), not to mention the epidemic of custom papers, cheating, and an attitude of 'what-I-get-for-my-money' amongst students, I think co-opting a monetised higher education system would be disastrous. Universities are not training-grounds for middle-managers, they are for the preservation and extension of all human knowledge and as such are absolutely essential not only to society but to humanity as a whole.

Edited December 8, 2010 by Darth InSidious

[Monte Carlo]

Darth, you are one of my favourite Obsidianites but this post needled Fisking so badly it hurt. Sorry.

 

First of all, these aren't 'austerity measures': these cuts have the purpose of fulfilling an ideological obsession with being heirs to Thatcher amongst a generation of Tories just old enough to start rising in their party as their party started falling.

 

This is a hysterical SWP tagline, not political or economic analysis. As an ardent Thatcherite myself these cuts are chicken-feed. The people in the chair are Tory wets who clearly want perpertual coalition with the Liberals to continue their dinner-party politics. Having said that, the cuts are a start.

 

 

They have bugger all to do with the actual deficit - while we're ruthlessly cutting public spending, we're equally letting more cash fly out of the window in tax breaks for the super-rich and their companies. That's the sort of super-rich who are now in government, and the sort of company whose fat-cats we're co-opting in as 'special advisors' to the government.

 

I'm not asking for stats, I'm not that sort of pedant but this is wrong. Building confidence in the UK economy needs a demonstration of intent (oh, and an independent currency) which the cuts are part of. The Left always want to soak the rich but unless you are some sort of hairy 70's Marxist you need to acknowledge that wealth creation is important. Am I a fan of the perpetually greedy? No (as Jean Cretien famously said, "The biggest enemies of capitalism are capitalists, they're never rich enough). Do I accept them as a necessary evil? Hell yeah. We aren't going to get out of this mess unless we reduce the deificit which is predicated substantially on the reduction of public spending, especially on third generation, unemployed, benefit dependants.

 

 

 

Second, these cuts are only severe enough to ensure that in at least ten years at best we'll have a Labour government whose first act will be to ratchet up public spending as every publicly-funded building in the country will be falling down and there will be millions unemployed and unemployable, while Cameron, Osborne, Philip Green et al are still quaffing Chateau Petrus.

 

Let's storm the Winter Palace, comrade! The likes of Green et. al. are more productive and important to our economy than the legions of public sector non-jobbers, parasitical students studying golf course management and other assorted indulgences of 13 years of ZanuNuLabour. Green came from nothing. He earnt his money legitimately. He is entitled to use every legal tax loophole to retain it. When will the left and their fellow travellers get their allegedly fully developed brains around the fact that there is nothing wrong with being successful? Give me one Philip Green over a dozen Gordon Browns or Polly Toynbees or Will Huttons.

 

Given the parlous state of American higher education, in particular the arts, humanities, and social sciences, and the near-total elimination of any serious public thought that has resulted (to say nothing of the state of public thought in the UK at present), not to mention the epidemic of custom papers, cheating, and an attitude of 'what-I-get-for-my-money' amongst students, I think co-opting a monetised higher education system would be disastrous. Universities are not training-grounds for middle-managers, they are for the preservation and extension of all human knowledge and as such are absolutely essential not only to society but to humanity as a whole.

 

The post-apocalyptic state of MIT, Harvard, Stanford etc must explain the exodus of British students and academics to the USA. 'Monetized' education is fair. Don't ask me to pay for Guy and Jocasta's art history degree FFS. The argument that their four hourly weekly attendance at 'Uni' (which is in fact a crumbling provincial Poly with Botox) is in some way essential for the preservation and extension of all human knowledge is risible.

 

Otherwise, I hope we are still friends.

 

Cheers

MC

[Moose]

On the bright side, with these austerity measures England will be flush with cash and in 15 years or so when weve run our country into the ground we can reach out to our good buddies across the pond for a loan to keep China from sending over people to beat us up.

 

Indeed. I think this is a good thing.

 

What I'm far more annoyed about is the stupidly large increase in university fees for UK students. University should be free or heavily subsidised. Find other spending cuts to make you bastards, like this ship!

Of course it should. Because universites don't cost anything do they? I mean, all those professors and lab intructors and campus staff, they work for free right? Capus facilities and equioment like research labs and the money to fund them, that just grows up from the ground right? The day college is free is the day a degree becomes worthless.

 

I've seen you critisise others for having an uninformed outsiders opinion on the U.S - let me tell you your comment shows me you know nothing about our university system.

[Pidesco]

Haven't you heard? Aircraft carriers are obsolete tech, since WWII.

[Guard Dog]

The services they provide to society and the economy as well as upward mobility opportunities to individuals far outweigh the benefits. But I would expect nothing less from a fringe laissez faire extremist like you.

 

In Australia almost all universities are government owned. They are very autonomous and provide heavily subsidised fees to university students. They run as businesses and consistently tend to make profits each year (from research monetisation and non-subsidised international student fees) which are funnelled back into research and service upgrades. Last I checked Australia had the highest percentage of the population with university qualifications of any country in the OECD.

 

Perhaps if America wants to improve its standing in the world for education and scientific advancement it could take a leaf from our book. But with people like you chanting "DOWN WITH GOVERNMENT" at every opportunity, I doubt America will be able to stem its downward slide in this area any time soon.

Oh ok I'm the anarchist again huh? You don't actually read my posts do you? I don't think I've ever chanted "DOWN WITH GOVERNMENT". Unless of course you are unable to distiguish that from the notion that a government should live within it's framework. Maybe you are, nuance can be difficult for some to grasp.

 

Perhaps the only the rich should be allowed an elite education would you say?

 

Oh, now I'm the putocrat again, you jump around like a flea on a hot rock. No I don't think that at all. I graduated from a major university with a Bachelor Degree and I'm not rich. And I paid for it myself, every last fu***ng cent. The difference between you and me is, if I want something, I go out and do what is required to get it. I don't waste time lamenting how no one will pay for it for me. It is YOUR responsibility to see to it you get an education (beyond the basic one you are entitled to from the state). It is not the responsibility of your fellow citizens to pay for it in your stead. Anyone in America can go to college if they want to. ANYONE. There are literally thousands of opportunities but they require work and sacrifice. Dirty words to a liberal, I know.