Korea

[Nepenthe]

Meanwhile the loss of life and human rights atrocities NK commits on its own people as well as South Koreans over time is far larger than what would be produced by replacing their North Korean leadership.

Not necessarily...

[HoonDing]

Where's Lof?

[mkreku]

I don't know if it's funny or sad that noone in this thread (or almost anywhere else on the internet for that matter) even bothers to ask the question: what does North Korea have to gain from sinking a boat and shooting at an island?

 

If you can come up with a reason that's not the common American answer to everything (they are eeeevul), then please share. If not, then maybe we can at least agree that there is more to this than "North Korea = bad = nuke them hurr durr". For example, noone finds it strange that South Korea and the US are having a huge military operation right along the border to North Korea as we speak?

 

I do not believe there is an evil entity called North Korea. There are 25 million people, individuals, living there, and the change has to come from them. Bombing their government back to the stone age solves nothing, we have seen that time and time again.

[pmp10]

I don't know if it's funny or sad that noone in this thread (or almost anywhere else on the internet for that matter) even bothers to ask the question: what does North Korea have to gain from sinking a boat and shooting at an island?

 

If you can come up with a reason that's not the common American answer to everything (they are eeeevul), then please share. If not, then maybe we can at least agree that there is more to this than "North Korea = bad = nuke them hurr durr". For example, noone finds it strange that South Korea and the US are having a huge military operation right along the border to North Korea as we speak?

 

I do not believe there is an evil entity called North Korea. There are 25 million people, individuals, living there, and the change has to come from them. Bombing their government back to the stone age solves nothing, we have seen that time and time again.

There is little point speculating about NK reasons as it's completely closed society and we really don't know.

You can speculate weather it's a part of a power struggle, a power transfer ceremony, dissatisfied military, protest against SK maneuvers, attempt to strengthen negotiation position or a ploy to grab international attention.

In the end we don't know due to nature of that country.

 

And nobody claims that every single North Korean is evil. But they work for a regime that employs questionable policies.

[Walsingham]

mkreku: how many more decades should we give for diplomatic solutions to work in North Korea do you think?

As long as it takes.

 

Oh good. Just so we're clear your moral compass has one direction crayoned on that reads "Fine so long as I don't have to look at it".

[mkreku]

There is little point speculating about NK reasons as it's completely closed society and we really don't know.

That's my point. All news about North Korea comes from South Korea and noone questions it. So why do you trust it so blindly?

 

And I love that someone uses the "you only tolerate it because you don't see it" argument. Yeah, I am sure everyone in this thread who wants to bomb North Korea will have to witness the total devastation and mutilated children and what not a bombing would bring. The only reason we have any clue as to what's going on in Iraq/Afghanistan is because of Wikileaks. All other media is being censored by the world's largest military force, yet noone on these boards object to that.

[Humodour]

mkreku, I think you've got a bit of a naive idealised picture of these regimes. Pacifism is nice and all if there's reasonable chance your opponent follows common sense.

 

Breaks down quite rapidly when they don't.

[mkreku]

I don't. If you read through my posts, I don't think you'll see me defending North Korea in any way. I just don't think bombing an entire country because their government is **** is a solution. You need to change an entire people's perception of things before any real change can occur. The only thing bombs bring is death and chaos and a world of politics that noone wants.

[Junai]

I don't. If you read through my posts, I don't think you'll see me defending North Korea in any way. I just don't think bombing an entire country because their government is **** is a solution. You need to change an entire people's perception of things before any real change can occur. The only thing bombs bring is death and chaos and a world of politics that noone wants.

 

Give it up man. American kids don't get it.

They love their stealth bombers, army rangers and Hollywood glorification.

 

 

J.

[Moose]

I think we're losing perspective.

 

North Korea has torpedoed and sunk a ship killing 104 people; openly threatened to use nuclear weapons; launched an artillery strike at a South Korean military base.

 

What choice is there but to strike back when you're being attacked.

[pmp10]

Take it and protest to your allies.

South Korea has simply no military options at it disposal as any retaliation will be opposed by major powers.

[Guard Dog]

I just LOVE how mkreku & junai are going on about the "American" perspective when 90% of the posts in this thread are not from Americans. In fact only two Americans have opined in this thread, well three now that I've stoped lurking. I just found their particular psycosis amusing. Anyway, carry on children, I'll go back to lurking.

[Walsingham]

I find it oddly flattering when people think I'm American. Although perhaps America shoud be less flattered.

 

I'm not seriously suggesting that the answer is to loft cruise missiles at North Korean ministries. My point was merely to attack the contrary extreme of suggesting we should make kissy face at them.

[Humodour]

If China uses economic manipulation too much, they'll risk isolating themselves economically in a rather detrimental way: countries and businesses will start to seek permanent alternatives with better investment certainty and stability (as happened with rare earths - America and Australia have reopened their old rare earth mines at the behest of Japan and Europe, so now China will lose its 97% monopoly on them due to using them as a political tool). Moreover, when China imposes economic sanctions it by definition is hurting it's own economic growth in the process, typically, as trade is self-evidently a mutual process.

 

Hahahaha! I didn't have to think hard to see this would happen, so how come the decision to halt rare earths to Japan happened in the first place? Are the people in charge of China's foreign trade really that mind-numbingly stupid that they value short-term chest-beating over long-term prosperity?

 

Japan signs permanent long-term rare earth supply deal with Australia, backs it with hundreds of millions of dollars of government-backed money in mining investment

China restarts shipments of rare earths to Japan straight after (having stopped them as a tool of political pressure on Japan over islands China wants to take from Japan)

[Wrath of Dagon]

We can't take military action against NK because China is protecting them. The main danger here is a real war will break out between the 2 Koreas, which could easily escalate into a nuclear war between US and China, since we'll probably have to use tactical nukes against NK artillery aimed at Seoul in case of an all out war. So we need to avoid escalation as far as possible. Taking sanction off NK was a big mistake though, we need to put those back.

 

China is not about to start a war with the world over a country that it knows is clearly in the wrong. It values its own stability far, far too much. And nuclear weapons would never be involved unless North Korea decided to launch the single nuke it is known to have (but not known to have a launching device for).

That makes sense, except China's unwillingness to put an end to this very dangerous situation and their own multiple provocations makes me question how rational they really are. Besides, they may not want this situation to escalate, and we don't either, but things could easily get out of hand. I don't think China will do nothing should we be forced to take out NK's artillery. After all, the Cuban missile crisis was very close to starting an all out nuclear war, even with both parties being fairly rational.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Wrath of Dagon

[Nepenthe]

The best analysis for the event I've heard so far was that it's the new NK regime testing exactly how far they can go and still get support from China. Makes sense with the new passing of the baton from father to son.

[SteveThaiBinh]

I don't know if it's funny or sad that noone in this thread (or almost anywhere else on the internet for that matter) even bothers to ask the question: what does North Korea have to gain from sinking a boat and shooting at an island?

It is curious sometimes how badly people will behave when there are no consequences. Perhaps the North Korean leadership is doing this simply because it knows it can get away with it.

The best analysis for the event I've heard so far was that it's the new NK regime testing exactly how far they can go and still get support from China. Makes sense with the new passing of the baton from father to son.

That seems a reasonable explanation. I wonder what it would take for China to stop keeping North Korea afloat. After all, doing so may lead to the state's chaotic collapse, precisely the thing that China seems to fear most.

[Monte Carlo]

I don't. If you read through my posts, I don't think you'll see me defending North Korea in any way. I just don't think bombing an entire country because their government is **** is a solution. You need to change an entire people's perception of things before any real change can occur. The only thing bombs bring is death and chaos and a world of politics that noone wants.

 

If we all sit around in a circle and sing songs, maybe smoke something herbal, then the whole militarised regime will, like, crumble man.

 

Alternatively we could drop some J-Dams on the regime C&C and have done with it.

[Volourn]

"Bombing their government back to the stone age solves nothing, we have seen that time and time again. "

 

We've also seen that strategy work as well. It workedm in WW2, afterall. Just ask Germany and Japan.

It also worked in iraq since guess what? The former dictator is no longer in the powerand that country is slowly working its way along. Nobody said change was easy.

 

Not that i reccommend such an approach except as an absolutely last resort. Besdies, nopbody is saing that the NK peoplem are evil. If anything, people are saying that the NK people are the NK's government victims. Their prisoners in their own country. That's sickening, and its sickening that some people want to keep the status quo because it doesn't effect them directly.

 

It's verys elfish to want freedom for yourself but don't want others to have freedom. I enjoy freedom in my country, and I believe NK civilians DESERVE freedom too.

 

Nobody is gonna go around bombing NK civilians for fun. they're gonna likely target military targets.

 

I do love the whole 'US is evil, and anything the US does is evil' propaganda, though. It's hilarious!

 

All the while approving a country like NK's actions. of murder.

[Meshugger]

Nothing major will happen. Unless the new supreme leader of the Best Korea has a screw loose, there will be some minor skirmishes here and there + some silly rhetoric. The only plausible reason was that the family of Kims wishes to demostrate their power, both internationally as domestically. China, Japan and especially South Korea are not interested in an open conflict. Add the interests of Russia and the US to equation as well and there will be more "peace"-talks, more foreign aid and new trade regulations that will benefit the state of the Best Korea.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Meshugger

[Meshugger]

Nothing major will happen. Unless the new supreme leader of the Best Korea has a screw loose, there will be some minor skirmishes here and there + some silly rhetoric. The only plausible reason was that the family of Kims wishes to demostrate their power, both internationally as domestically. China, Japan and especially South Korea are not interested in an open conflict. Add the interests of Russia and the US to equation as well and there will be more "peace"-talks, more foreign aid and new trade regulations that will benefit the state of the Best Korea.

 

Scrap that, Sarah Palin just sworn alliegence to the Best Korea.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Meshugger

[Hurlshort]

Scrap that, Sarah Palin just sworn alliegence to the Best Korea.

 

Geez. I have a hard time believing she will even get within sniffing distance of the Republican presidential nomination.

[Zoraptor]

Armchair warriors make me lol. It is truly fortunate that everyone in power knows that magical laz0r firing flag waving Anglo super duper mecha-robots don't really exist. As with the Cheonnan nothing will happen because everyone with knowledge grounded in reality rather than fantasy knows that there is no prospect of destroying NK's artillery before it makes a moonscape out of Seoul. At the least.

 

Sheesh, the NKs have killed 40 odd (?) US servicemen since the end of the KW and nothing substantive has happened.

[Moose]

I can't stay mad at North Korea. Every time I see this

all is forgiven.

[Orogun01]

Scrap that, Sarah Palin just sworn alliegence to the Best Korea.

Heck of a Freudian slip.

Edited November 25, 2010 by Orogun01