If K2 had a simpler, straight forward plot

[dufflover]

This is another "critism of the K2 plot" type thread, except this won't be focused on any plot holes and stuff (although it might be mentioned), which heaps of other threads are already doing.

 

I want to discuss a hypothetical:

What if KotOR 2 had a simpler plot?

 

What if the main plot of the game was just to unite the lost Jedi Masters, and then defeat the Sith Lords.

Now yes, that is pretty much what you do in the game now, except remove all that stuff on mass deaths causing force wounds (your exile just caused you to forget like Kyle Katarn), the true sith, Mandalorians forced to invade, and so on. The game for the most part would remain unchanged; you'd still have the same sidequests, and be looking for Jedi on the same planets.

 

An off-the-top-of-my-head example for LS would be (you just found the 3rd/last Jedi Master):

- meet on Dantooine

- talk about the Sith threat and how the masters have revealed themselves (remember, no force wound stuff/exile stuff)

- Kreia is 'formally' exposed by Master Kavar to be a Sith (I dunno, and she revelas her plan that the remaining Jedi and 2 other Sith Lords would kill each other off?)

- Then you go to Telos, save the station, then get some big saber fights on the Ravager just before the bridge (you are conveniently the only one not caught up to go face the Darth guy with Visas.

- Then to (say Korriban) to fight Darth Sion

- Then you go off and face Kreia on Malachor.

 

"Defeating the Sith threat" may seem like a pretty repetitive thing now, but most of KotOR is spent NOT dealing with the threat, but rather about being nice, evil and character development.

 

Comments, other storyline suggestions, maybe somewhere inbetween?

[DarkLordSkorpion]

One problem: Kreia being the main Sith Lord. I hated that. Obsidian goes and puts Nihilus on the cover and t-shirts are even made of em, and yet he is the biggest pushover since Malak. He should have been the main Sith Lord, going by that he is actually more *powerful* than the other two. Hell, he even *looks* cooler than the other two. Heh. Other than that.... well, i'll stick with the storyline of what it already is.

[Jarx Xun]

Having a simple plot wouldn't fix any of the problems. The game would just feel alot more under developped. Obsidian had a great plot outline, they just couldn't flesh it out properly so that it made sense.

[Mark Havel]

It's certaintly not Obsidian who make the ad campaign of the game nor decided to put Nihilus as main badass. Perhaps they asked Lucas Arts to do so in order to not reveal the least part of the plot.

Having a simplier plot would be the worse thing to do with the game. Obsidian did not change everything in the game engine, gameplay, fighting system. They just ehanced some small parts of it. By making The Sith Lords, they showed us how strong they are to make RPG story. TSL's scenario is certaintly one of the better I've ever seen for a video game. For me, there is Planescape, there is The Sith Lords (did you notice that the only title after the Star Wars logo is "The Sith Lords", but not "Knights of the Old Republic II, The Sith Lords"...) and there is the other games. The scenario litteraly save KotOR II from the demise, weaken it and you'll weaken the whole game.

[Volourn]

Huh? The main plot is simple.

[dufflover]

One problem: Kreia being the main Sith Lord. I hated that. Obsidian goes and puts Nihilus on the cover and t-shirts are even made of em, and yet he is the biggest pushover since Malak. He should have been the main Sith Lord, going by that he is actually more *powerful* than the other two. Hell, he even *looks* cooler than the other two. Heh. Other than that.... well, i'll stick with the storyline of what it already is. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well seeing the logo screens made me think that there were 3 Sith Lords, with Nihilus being the final boss, and from the title, info, setting, and all that, assumed that the game is about the Sith hunting you because they believe you're the last Jedi, whether you believe yourself to be one or not, and the objective for you is to find a way to destroy them. (which is to find the lost Jedi and fight the now revealed threat)

 

OK, "simpler" might have been the wrong word to use. For like 95% (ie, a lot until Nihilus attacks) of the game follows this path and objective, so I can't see how the game would be worse off.

[Planeforger]

One problem: Kreia being the main Sith Lord. I hated that. Obsidian goes and puts Nihilus on the cover and t-shirts are even made of em, and yet he is the biggest pushover since Malak. He should have been the main Sith Lord, going by that he is actually more *powerful* than the other two. Hell, he even *looks* cooler than the other two. Heh. Other than that.... well, i'll stick with the storyline of what it already is. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What would be the point of putting Kreia on the cover? That would ruin the [sarcasm] surprise [/sarcasm] when she betrays you. And she's old, so wouldn't look good on a t-shirt.

[Marid Bakhtavar]

... (did you notice that the only title after the Star Wars logo is "The Sith Lords", but not "Knights of the Old Republic II, The Sith Lords"...)...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know what kind of box you got, but mine says "Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II The Sith Lords"

[Ace]

He means the roll up.

 

Which I was pleasantly surprised with. I like the fact they used just the subtitle as opposed to:

 

STARWARS

*text flies into the distance*

 

DARK FORCES XII:

JEDI KNIGHT XI:

KNIGHTS THE OLD REPUBLIC X:

JEDI V.S. SITH IX:

THE SITH LORDS VIII:

SITH OUTCAST

 

Okay, so it's a bit extreme but most of the game rollups have been almost that bad after a sequel or two...

[Taran'atar]

To answer the original question: No, a simpler plot would have made the game feel half-assed. As it is, KOTOR 2 is at least three-quarters-assed.

 

The plot is a good one, they just needed to flesh out some things better than they did.

 

Maybe I'm in the minority on this, but I liked Kreia as the endgame "boss". True, it wasn't much of a surprise to me, and I doubt it was even much of a surprise to the player character, but of the three Sith Lords, Kreia is the one with the most personality, most backstory, and the deepest personal connection to the main character. All of those things make her the best of the three main villains.

 

As for why Nihilus was on the box cover, loading screens, posters, etc. Probably for the same reason HK-47 was on the box cover of the first KOTOR even though he's not a very important character: He just looks cool. Kreia doesn't.

[jaguars4ever]

For a story driven RPG, dumbing down the plot makes the game worse - not better. Lack of depth is almost as bad as convolution.

[The Great Phantom]

The Story was great as it was, imho. I don't see what everybody's problem is. Obsidian was rushed, unfortunately, but they did a decent job. We just have to give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume that they did have a plan when they forgot to put in "To Be Continued..."

:ph34r:

[Mark Havel]

Yeah, I obviously meant the roll up sequence.

[Astatine]

I thought the plot was superb, and much as I have complained along with lots of other people about the cut material and the obvious rushedness of the whole thing, I'm very glad they did what they did in the time they had rather than release a "complete" and "bugfixed" game with a watered down plot.

[Lifthransir Bane]

No. The plot was easily the strongest point as was the way of looking at the force and the obvious, but undiscussed problems with the philosophy of both jedi and sith. Furthermore it fleshed out all the questions that I had in kotor1.

 

The problems with this game are obvious, there is no new insightful way of looking at them.

 

-Dark Jedi/Sith/Sith Lords don't use any force powers (except Traya)

 

-Ending was unfinished and a lot was cut

 

-buggy

[Lifthransir Bane]

One problem: Kreia being the main Sith Lord. I hated that. Obsidian goes and puts Nihilus on the cover and t-shirts are even made of em, and yet he is the biggest pushover since Malak. He should have been the main Sith Lord, going by that he is actually more *powerful* than the other two. Hell, he even *looks* cooler than the other two. Heh. Other than that.... well, i'll stick with the storyline of what it already is. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Don't lie. The first time that you fought Malak, you had one hell of a time because you didn't completely understand the mechanics of the game.

[Master Dahvernas]

The main problem *I* have with the game is that I think Obsidian fell into "this is great nove/movie/discussion material... But does it make a good game plot" trap.

 

Let me explain.

 

The main gyst of the complaints I and others have that I have read on this and other forums is that the game is possibly trying too hard to address to many things... Even if those things are extremely interesting... But doesn't have a solid emotional core at the center of the story to link all the things you do in the game (sidequests; finding Jedi masters; training Jedi) into one coherent plot/narrative.

 

I think this is the number one complaint that a lot of people have, but don't know how to express it properly.

 

Meaning, they say things like "I hated the ending", "I was left going WTF?", "I felt cheated" and all of those things are symptomatic of the overall story not having a solid enough base that brings together all of these unique ideas that OE wanted to address.

 

For example, in the first KOTOR, you have the goal of either defeating Malak and the Sith Armada and restoring order to the galaxy... Or taking over the Armada and ruling the galaxy. That, as simplistic as it is, is a solid foundation on which to build all of the sidequests on. It is also a story of redemption if you play LS and even if you play DS to a certain extent (you are recovering your memories and have crucial points at which to choose which side to take).

 

TSL has basically.... Well, I can't really say... And THAT is the problem. Yes. The external goal is to find the Jedi Masters and reunite them... But a lot of the character development and internal goals were left on the cutting room floor and thus, the story feels really empty and like it is trying to tackle too many things at once... And possibly those concepts might actually be too complex for a video game as well.

 

So, to answer the question... Yes and no.

 

Yes because I think it would have given a more focused and therefore, better gaming experience, but no because I did like the fact that it addresses the real fallout of war and how that ripples throughout life (the force) and those war effects which is often glossed over in a lot of fictional pieces in favor of the "rah, rah! let's go get the bad guys" fevor that often serves as the main thrust of the entertainment instead of commenting on the fallout those events actually have.

[AlanC9]

The external goal is to find the Jedi Masters and reunite them... But a lot of the character development and internal goals were left on the cutting room floor and thus, the story feels really empty and like it is trying to tackle too many things at once... .

 

I'm going to have to slightly disagree. There's no evidence that there was every any real motivation to the "find the Jedi" quest -- the cut material is stuff that happens after that.

 

But yes, there was a sense in the KorOR 2 campaign that you're more or less the Force's plaything, as opposed to K1 where you feel more in charge of your own destiny..

[Ashe]

It does beg the question though. Can a simpler plot, if better written and implemented, with more depth on characterisation, and character interaction, outdo a more complex, subtly nuanced plot that's just badly implemented? I'd say yes, far far too many people I've talked to say no.

[AlanC9]

Well, if that is the question, then you're right. Better execution generally trumps other considerations.

 

But the quality of execution and the complexity don't really have anything to do with each other. If they had planned a simpler storyline from the start, they would have budgeted less design time too. There's no reason to think that it would have changed the way things worked out.

[Wild Storm]

Don't lie. The first time that you fought Malak, you had one hell of a time because you didn't completely understand the mechanics of the game.

 

Although he might be lieing about Malak, I agree that Nihilus should have been the main Sith Lord. Also with Atris, she should have had a bigger part and knowledge and something with Nihilus since the promo artwork is them!

[Zilod]

The main plot is the stronghest point of this game....

If so many people enjoyed it (expecially with the problems the game have) is due to the story and some very good chars.

 

A simpler plot have made this game just an average soon to be forgotten game as many, too many ones.

 

I'm all about complex and deep stories... most of the time games, movies, even books seem to suffer from superficiality so i'm more than happy when i can play a game with an interesting and mature story and, as a good book, can also make me think.

 

 

 

 

 

aaaa and for Nihilus and Kreia... Nihilus is just a pawn in her hands she is so superior to him, also i can't consider her a sith lord or a villain so even for the story it makes sense to me that she is not presented as the main opponent. (just to add to other reason stated above)

[Tanuvein]

One problem: Kreia being the main Sith Lord. I hated that. Obsidian goes and puts Nihilus on the cover and t-shirts are even made of em, and yet he is the biggest pushover since Malak. He should have been the main Sith Lord, going by that he is actually more *powerful* than the other two. Hell, he even *looks* cooler than the other two. Heh. Other than that.... well, i'll stick with the storyline of what it already is. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Don't lie. The first time that you fought Malak, you had one hell of a time because you didn't completely understand the mechanics of the game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You had trouble with Malak? I had a Jedi consular, and no way to kill the Jedi even if I wanted, and I still didn't have any trouble.

[dufflover]

Well, if that is the question, then you're right. Better execution generally trumps other considerations.

 

But the quality of execution and the complexity don't really have anything to do with each other. If they had planned a simpler storyline from the start, they would have budgeted less design time too. There's no reason to think that it would have changed the way things worked out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Unlike diving (the sport) there are no difficulty bonuses, but it is true that if they had planned a less complicated ending, then they would've given less time as well and the result probably would've been worse - a simple "dive" stuffed up.

 

Again I say that if you enjoyed most of the game would remain the same so if you liked the start you would've liked it the other way. If you liked the whole concept of "True Sith"/"bigger threat" or the "wound in the force" or "Kreia hating the force", then those things would still work through conversation, but I think Obsidian (or LucasArts) made the wrong choice by having your character act on them. Heck they could just say in K3 that "2 jedi have left for that place, neither have been heard of since".

 

One possible way (you'll have to use lots of imagination), using spoiler tag to save people who don't want to read it with a face full of text:

 

 

[wake up on Dantooine after Kreia deal]

- use the force/bond up-sides to revive say 2 of the 3 masters, each one being a different class, just to add some more interesting combinations to the game. For giving them life again and showing true Jedi behaviour, they give you & your proposal some faith (? "We may be wrong about you...(blah blah) We'll consider your future later")

[still off to Telos]

- You still confront Atris, you still fight on the Station, you still "sweep" through the Ravager, have the Masters and their squads held up some how, so you still duel Nihilus (or use Sion who has come to assassinate Atris)

[still to Malachor V]

- Maybe have the Masters + some party knocked out from the crash (also provides a good escape reason for how Ebon Hawk didn't plummet to destruction), and have some snapshots of Ebon Hawk internally with them and others knocked out.

- Still fight on surface, still sweep the Academy solo, still have the remaining Sith Lord duel (if Nihilus, then have him communicate that he does not fear Kreia and will have enough power to deal with her after absorbing you)

- Still fight Kreia and get rescued by Hawk, then have a forced conversation with Masters at the Ebon Hawk in the ramp area talking about discovered academy, generator activated, defeating all the Sith Lords but Kreia mentioning an even bigger threat,...ending with the option "let's get out of here before the planet crushes us" (or something cheesy)

- Show the rest of the video of Hawk escaping debris and flying off but ends before knowing if the Masters do anything to you, but still ends with the whole "bigger threat" thing

 

It's obviously an LS thing and the only real difference is that Jedi are left alive. I've highlighted the 'still' bits to show the stuff you do is mostly the same, and the this particular ending makes it *seem* simpler because you have clearly fulfilled the "save Jedi/stop Sith Lords" plot.

 

 

[Shizuka2]

One more vote in favor of complexity.

 

It was a good plot - a very good one. A welcome breath of buddhism in an all too often manichaean universe.

 

They could have fleshed things out more, and almost certainly intended to (see the cut ending thread), but it was good as is. The only additional thing I think would have really helped would have been a solid prologue, in the manual or in the game, letting you know the broad outlines of your own backstory beforehand - certainly I have had much, much more fun playing through it when I think about acting either as an undead weeping wound in the force, or alternatively as a bodhisvatta who, having transcended the cycle of life, remains to help others.

 

I liked the complexity of the plot - KOTOR was a good game - a better one than KOTOR II, as it turns out (though it need not have been that way - blame Lucasarts if it makes you feel better; I know it makes me feel better), but compare Malak to Kreia. Malak... was a club. An angry club, as HK-47 put it, and with about as much personality. He made a good villain, someone you were happy to crush, but no more.

 

Kreia? Kreia was a character to remember. Sure, you always knew that she had her own agenda - but you also knew that she, who cared for nothing else in the universe, cared deeply about the exile. She could be harsh when disappointed - the burden of her hopes and dreams for the death of the force is not a small one to bear - but if you were paying attention, she was a great deal of fun to talk to. You could never trust what she said, but you could always trust that there would something interesting in the discussion, and you could trust that she would turn any situation both to her advantage and to what she considered to be yours. Leaving Telos and realizing that Atris hadn't noticed Kreia's existence? Much more chilling than watching Malak or his petulant apprentice Bandon break things and beat their chests, even when those things are whole planets. She is better than Malak as it stands - give her back the cut endings and the contest isn't even worth handicapping.

 

Then, too, I liked the way that KOTOR II prompted you to reanalyze KOTOR. Why did Revan do what Revan did? Why should the man on the street care about philosophical differences among these celebrity mystics - aside from the very real risk of dying from stray blaster-fire during the more hotly disputed debates. Which is the better victory - the annihilation of one's enemy or their conversion?

 

Destroying the Star Forge made excellent theater, but it was wonderful that this game took such impetus from the destruction of fuel depot in a precarious political situation. Truly satisfying. Actually, satisfying as it was to storm the Sky Ramp or assault the tomb, I should have liked the option to war in the shadows a little more myself, to settle Telos by arranging a boardroom coup at Czerka or the like.

 

The worst that can be said of the complexity is that it came at the cost of execution. This is undeniably true, but I do not to believe it to have been a necessary state of affairs. At some point, the decision was made to make twelve more months worth of game. At another point, the decision was made to sell it with perhaps three of those months still remaining. This complexity need not have come at the price of bugginess and and a butchered ending for all your companions save Kreia (whose ending was butchered too, but even butchered inspires respect).