Zilod

I totally agree, a thing really good of this game is that there are many many hints and everything is not banalized by tons of explanations that hurt the intelligence of players. (as also many movies tend to do lately) more you play, more you discuss it and more you will know the game and make your ideas and theories... even if we don't agree on points this doesn't mean its a sterile discussion, we try to build a story behind it and to solve various "problems" we encounter and the confrontation help to raise new problems and to see another point of view. pesonally some assumptions i made, changed a bit (or a lot) during time, and this thanks to sharing opinions and ideas about the game. also TSL is a very rich game, full of things that can make us think, not just about the game itself, but about the RL in general with many interesting and sometimes controversal ideas... i find it more like a good book or a good movie than a game, something that can bring something to the reader.

mmmm actually is Darth Traya a disguise for Kreia... Kreia was Traya in the past, now she is no more her... she just get her costume back to complete the Exile teaching... exept for Atris i think we never meet darth Traya ingame. so i'll go with Kreia, i know her and like her, also for sure she know better the force and have higher objective than when she was darth traya

about the 3 sith lords and the technique Nihilus is the pinnacle of that techinque, but every sith know it... even the crappiest sith assassin... when the Exile and Kreia speak about the sith assassins, the old woman describe that technique and that they feed on the force. so is obvious that all the 3 sith lords know it and experienced it in first person, and there are example that even Sion and Kreia knows and use it. for Kreia is very evident, when she kills the 3 jedi masters on dant, their bodies are an hole in the force, pratically same as Nihilus have done on the miraluka planet. for Sion even the reference of the pain he use to sustain himself can refer to this techinque... when the bonds, in particular between master and apprentice, are described it is said that master and apprentice share feelings using these connections... so in the end, it really seem just another aspect of this tech. for these reasons we can say that all the 3 sith lords use this tech in a different way, this still makes all of them a threat for the galaxy in Kreia eyes. also we can't really say if with time even Sion or Kreia could be totally corrupted by this tech and become like Nihil. about Nihil and Sion history Nihil can't become an hole on the force for the Exile+academy teachings... he became an hole in the force because he was drained and was not his choice. remember that Kreia say that the Exile is the only one who chose to cut her her connection with the force, so Nihil had to be drained by someone. again the only one was the Exile on Malachor. also is not that every jedi who where on/near Malachor died... Malachor was a weapon used by Revan to convert the jedi not to kill them... Kreia explain that on dant academy, the screams of dieing jedi/soldiers on malachor was so high that jedi where forced to chose to embrace the dark side or to die. (the Exile was the only one who "resolved the problem" in a different way) so when i say that Nihilus was on malachor i don't imply that he was about to die and feeded on the other to survive, i just say that he was present and was probably drained in some way (probably because of a strong connection with the exile) for Sion instead i think he actually crashed on the planet and stript from the force (as nihilus) used his pain to survive. (as also seem to point the HK stance) and also the important thing here is not the tech itself, but the fact that the Exile taught something to these sith lords... it was only possible on malachor or before it, so they had to be jedi (or at least soldiers of the republic). this is the only way they had a chance to experience the connection of the exile (and i'd add the draining). for Kreia there is much speculation, i will not say here that she can be master Kae, just that as she was the "archivist" of a jedi academy (probably dant), the first teacher of Revan and generally an important jedi... the Exile had to know her. it seem that Atris and Kreia know each other quite well, the Exile and Atris where close friends... the Exile had at least to know who Kreia was, i don't say they had to be friends... but at least to know her. also Kreia was probably not drained on malachor in first place so it can indicate she was not close to the Exile at that time. (and if she was present on malachor as is suggested)

about jedi masters/atris and the exile Jedi masters had no clue about the exile, every jedi master they don't understand the exile when they "judge"/exile her and they don't understand her when they meed on dant academy. they can't undestand the absence of the force in her and they fear her, they fear to become as her. they say they can't live near the Exile and they try to destroy her. is interesting to see how Visas (who is "super partes") liquidate all the jedi masters in 1 sentence... (something like) "they saw in you the death of the force, i see the hope for the livings" this is a key discussion as it point out what is right and what is not... is not Kreia, that can be misunderstood, is Visas who judge the jedi masters. all they see in the exile is the death of the force, and this is valid even for Atris, she can't think of a life whitout the force. so when Atris tells "she seeks the death of the galaxy... and so on..." she is wrong, Kreia want to save the galaxy from Nihilus (she tells that a lot of time, when she speak about Nihilus, about the 3 sith lords, and in the end at malachor). the fact that Atris thinks that Kreia want to destroy the galaxy simply prove how she can't understand Kreia motivations and intents. about the duel between Kreia and the Exile is not that killing Kreia will be an example, to kill her is simply necessary and kreia knows that. as said there are some (possible) motivations - Kreia is a menace for the galaxy as much as other sith lords, she need to be stopped for the galaxy to survive (and Kreia doesn't want to destroy the galay) as said she always consider the 3 siths as a single threat, all have to be destroyed - the Exile have to demonstrate she is stronger than Kreia, during the game the Exile grew in power and knowledge under Kreia teachings, and this is the final test, is her ritual of initiation... have to prove she became what she was supposed to be and the hope for the galaxy. - Kreia is the probably the only person able to influence the Exile, as long as she lives the Exile can't be really free from the force. in this light the stance "The apprentice must kill the Master - if you do not, I will kill you. If I do not, then all you have achieved will be as nothing, as empty, and as violent as Malachor itself." makes a lot of sense... if the Exile will not win, and even if Kreia will spare her... the path, the enlightment will be useless... the Exile will have not the strenght to cover her role and to be an example for the galaxy, nor she will be totally free from the force... all the fights, all the deaths will be useless and in this light i think we should read " all you have achieved will be as nothing, as empty, and as violent as Malachor itself" about the bond and the wound what makes the Exile so important is not her ability to connect with others... Kreia herself explain what makes the Exile so important.... in the end when you ask "why me?", she tells that she chose the Exile because she was the only jedi that chose cut her connection with the force, in a way so brutal that it caused a wound in the force. the wound is alredy there, the echoes are alredy there... was that severed connection that caused the wound. Kreia is never much interested by the Exile bond skills. also i think you misunderstood what Zaz said about severing the connection between 2 people... he tells that the connection will still be active but will be empty, a wound. now he doesn't tell this is wound in the force, but a wound for the one who had that connection. this is also what happened for the exile and the force, but if Kreia or the Exile will cut that connection (with death) the other will be "wounded" as her connection will be empty and not the force itself.

yup i think that too... ther's a very strong connection but i doubt too is letal... even Kreia is very vague speaking about this side effect and if i remember right she never tells that... she always say perhaps, maybe... and so on... i also suspect that Kreia chose to lose her hand to makes the exile feel the pain and show her that connection.

as character i prefer Talia, as history i prefer Vaklu so who i like to help? it depends by mood and char i'm playing... if it will be possible to help vaklu whitout killing Talia i think i will mostly help him even with good chars.

Atris didn't think so, when the Exile met her in battle she spoke of Kreia's plans for creating an echo in the Force powerful enough to travel forever throughout the galaxy never reaching its destination, leaving in its wake dead spots in which the Force cannot be felt, on Malachor Kreia herself confirms as much, threateing to kill the Exile would she not kill her, because one of them has to die for the bond to become a wound and create the echo. Jedi masters, and Atris in particular, have no clue about the exile, her importance and the plan of Kreia... they are blind by the force (as Kreia will say) and about the fight between the Exile and Kreia... she had tons and tons of situations where she where able to kill the exile... even on dant academy (DS) she put the exile "asleep" and if she really wanted she had killed the exile. if the plan was just to create the echoe you ipotize why she had not killed her? and more important, why to continue to teach to the Exile? as said in another 3d... this is a game of enlightment, the enlightment of the exile that have to be able to act as a light, a path... she is the "true" echo, not kreia or other sith lords. when they fight on malachor Kreia wants to die, is the last test and her death will complete the exile "training"... if the Exile died then it was not a victory for Kreia, she also never mention the bound between them in such way. also note that the 3 sith lords are considered by Kreia as all the same, we see them with different powers and strenghts but for Kreia there is not much difference. when she speak about them she refers to them as echoes of malachor, she imply that all the 3 knows this technique and all 3 are a menace to the galaxy that will destroy/consume it. we see Nihilus as the greater menace and the one that explored this technique more than others, but this doesn't imply that other ones doesn't know it or will not become as Nihilus with time. so, another reason she had to die is that by herself she was a menace to the galaxy, when Kreia "is happy" because the exile stopped the siths she is speaking even about herself. ":: You have taught them to bond with others, and then feed on others through that bond. ::" she doesn't mean the Exile taught them to drain the Force, if the Exile kills the masters she clearly says "I've never done anything like that before.", it is that Kreia sees taking strenghts from others and feed upon them much as the same ability, which it is but not in the common moral sense, the Exile always did form bonds with others and those connections granted strengths both to them and to the Exile, they never represented a threat to them. then again the ability to form connections is what Nihilus learned from the Exile and he used that ability much as a dark Exile would on the jedi masters: "It is a way that they fill the hollow places where the Force used to be." there is no evidence however that would suggest the Exile and Sion knew each other, quite the contrary, and we do not know the identity of Darth Nihilus so he could be anyone. imo there are many hints and looking at them one by one maybe they don't make that sense... but put them togather... Nihilus (and other sith lords too) learnt from the exile to create connections... when? where? it had to be before Malachor and the Exile never met any sith before TSL... the only things that she have done before malachor was... to fight the manda wars and to stay in the academy. so imo is quite evident that Nihilus had to be a jedi one of Dant academy (that followed Revan with the exile) or a "comrade" in manda wars. we also know that jedis felt to dark side cause manda wars and in particular cause of malachor (who was the key in Revan plan to bring jedis to his side)... so again Nihilus had to be on malachor Kreia also says that to learn that technique you have to feel its effects in first person... so Nihilus had to be drained by someone, and has he is considered an Echo of malachor the only one capable to do something like that was the exile. again the Exile created malachor, nothing else, everything that comes from malachor or is related to it, comes directly from the exile as an echo. this imply that if Nihilus is an hole in the force, he is an hole because of the exile. now i'm not saying that the Exile consciously used that technique on Nihilus, my theory is that when the exile cut her bound with the force and the force was wounded by it... even the people "near" the exile, who had the strongest bounds with her, suffered from this loss and where wounded too... this apply to Nihilus but in a minor part even for Sion. now about Sion.... i said before that all the sith lords are addressed more or less the same way, so all the reference about Nihilus technique and bounding techings is valid even for Sion... on top of that i really had the impression that Sion knew the Exile and where very close, the dialogue at the academy when he tells the exile to turn away... the fact the exile is the weakness for him... even the confrontation on Korriban... he is tooo soft with her (with a female, canonic, exile... i'd say he love her ) and last thing... i think is interesting that all the 3 sith lords have a sort of mask so that the exile is not able to recognize them. Kreia use her powers to remove her presence from Exile mind... so even if they knew each other the exile can't/don't remember it.... and also Kreia know the exile even before they meet. Sion is no more recognizable, is broken and falling apart, not resembling anymore the man he was. Nihilus have a mask and is no more a man... and even when he die, when the exile had the chance to look at him, she stay away awaiting Visas. and all the 3 siths are not using their real names, so again the exile can't recognize them. so yes... the Exile don't know them... but i'm pretty sure they knew her well

nono.... i think there is a misconception here... the way that kreia want to destroy the force is not an apocaliptic one. she actually doesn't chose for all the galaxy, condamning the force sensitive guys to die... to do that there is alredy Nihilus and we know she want to stop him or the galaxy will be lost. the way Kreia want to "kill the force" is by an axample for people and the exile is that example, is a model or an "ubermensch", someone that can act as a model and insipre the others around him showing a path, a life free from the force. this is the influence and the "right echo" she speak about many times (for example on nar shadda) is not the death of the galaxy but its freedom. also i agree that we don't really know if Kreia is right... but even looking at the movies we see 2 wars, planet destroyed, millions of innocent killed and that just because the force have to "find balance".... personally i really simpatize with Kreia tought, and it seem to me she was quite right so the way this Echo will spread will be not a be deaf to the force or die... (nihilus alredy satisfy it to an extent)... the thing really important about the exile is not that she is an hole in the force, but that she chose to be excluded from the force, she decided it... she can show to others that it is possible to live and "fulfill themselves" whitout the force then the others are free to do the same choice as the exile. and for Nihilus... he is probably a jedi who felt on malachor and barely survived (same as Sion), i really don't think is a sort of "dark side god", the fact that he was reborn on malachor could be not intended in a phisical way, but in a more "spiritual" one. adding about Nihil... he is very similar to the exile, its a sort of antagonist and it was created/"drained" by the exile herself (same for Sion and eventually, at the end, even Traya) so yes is an hole in the force as the exile... probably the main difference is that the exile have no need to fill her emptyness (as was her choice) while Nihilus is not able to do that and consume everything for his hunger. also i suspect that actually Nihilus was the first try from Kreia to "destroy" the force... but it ended quite bad as we know. Nihilus was created by the exile, Kreia say that quite directly in the end, also the fact that you can learn that tech only if you experiment it in first person imply that nihilus had to be drained by someone/something to know it. Kreia also refer to the 3 sith lords as echoes of malachor and the exile herself... what came from malachor came actually from the exile not the bomb, the war or Revan... this is an important distinction to do... was not the gravitational thing that created an hole in the force, nor the deaths, was the Exile... is quite easy to consider the 2 things as the same (and yes the exila severed her bounding cause the deaths on mala) but they are actually 2 very different things (and quite easy to confuse) so when Kreia speaks about the echoes from malachor she is speaking about the echoes generated by the exile, Nihilus included... actually is veeeeeeeeeeery probable that both Sion and Nihilus where jedis under Revan army or at least some force sensitive guys that fought there. i think they where actually quite close to the exile and that she had strong bounds with them... is interesting to see how Kreia (i think in dant academy dark side/killing master) say that the Exile tought them not only to "drain the force" but to extabilish bounds/links. about Kreia and Exile bound... is quite controversal i agree... the thing about if one die the other will suffer same destiny is a bit confusing i think in the end the bond was broken with Kreia's death and this left a "wound" as Zez said... also a lot of time ago had a very nice discussion about these things, kreia and the game on the forum and was ipotized that Kreia had to die for the exile to be free because she had some "control" over the exile. basically the idea is... the exile can't be really free from the force as she is influenced by Kreia who is not free from the force so her death is necessary for the Exile to be "complete" in her freedom from the force. a veeeery interesting point imo, as it is not really clear why Kreia want to die and this is a good explanation. (also we have to say that maybe, in the uncut version, Kreia had not to die, but also we don't really know if and how that is possible)

(reposted my last 2 posts in the topic on the spoiler forum, also as Jinger noted we gone a bit out of topic, and a lot "out of non spoiler"... so maybe we can delete the inappropriate posts from this topic and cntinue the discussion on the spoiler forum)

doesn't lessen it, but where more than enought to balance that factor and to be near to defeat the republic... everyone in kotor says that if it was not for Revan, mandaloreans had conquered the republic, so yes they where outnumbered but they where way stronger/better equipped than the republic army so imo the fact that republic had more ships/soildiers doesn't lessen the fact that was Revan to "win the war" and whitout his/ner intervention the republic had fallen to mandas.

i have not said that s/he was in numerical inferiority, but is clear that, even if the republic was outnumbering mandaloreans, it was losing badly... system after system... this mean that mandas had some other superiority, it could be training, it could be tech and this other superiroty was more effective than simply numbers... just an historical example... when first machineguns where developed they where used by colonialists empire to subjugate a large number of african/asian popolations... there was a battle in particular where a couple of english soldiers with MG decimated an "army" composed by thousands of indigenous "soldiers"... now i don't think this is the same for manda/republic but is just to show that the number is not always the most important factor. for imp and new republic... imp fleet was military/tech bettern than republic one... ISD where the most powerfull capital ships by a good margin... again 1 ISD can take out 2 mon cals and even interdictors or carriers where not to underestimate with their role specialization. fighters where imo more balanced, and for ground battle various ATs seemed to be quite unmatched (exept when they where fighting teddybears)

ehi.... but Kreia is not a villain!!!! i'm not so harsh with K2, imho is quite elegant even in its handling a thing as destructive as Nihilus... as Kreia says he's not anymore a man, is a sort of a "natural force of destruction" as can be a black hole so quite plausible imo... i heard of way worse things as siths kitterly destroying planets (or suns?) with big force rays, or jedis shoting down orbital ship (again with sort of force rays... damn i want force rays in k3 ) so i found this "way of destruction" way more enjoyable than usual "brute" ones... also i don't see why you are so schandalized by Nihilus, i don't see him very dissimilar than the old starforge... the sith was faster with hunger, but don't forget that the SF decimated an entire civilization, possibily using the same (or very similar) "powers" for the restoration mod i must say that i'm eager to play it... is more than an year that i'm awaiting it... even if i admit that i have also some "fears"... i really liked TSL and if the mod will totally change the story... eheh anyway i hope it will be for the better

I think is a bit problematic to objectively say that Thrawn is better than Revan, even reading all that is relased... why?.... here a pratical example... what i know about Thrawn and Revan? i know Revan from KOTOR games and Thrawn for TIE fighter and some things i heard... both are quite lacky but let's try... both are considered military genius -Revan won a war against manda, a war that the repubblic was losing badly. -Revan almost won a war against the republic before s/he was betrayed, not really a big thing as s/he had both numeric and tech superiority - Revan defeated the true sith but we don't know how - Revan is an extremely powerfull and important jedi... sort of Anakin - Tharwn was winning a war against the new republic before he was betrayed, he had probably numeric/resource inferiority but also a military/tech superiority (imp fleet/army > new republic) - Tharwn defeated the traitor Zharin - Tharwn was a Chiss (?) and had to show some extremely good qualities to climb empire gerarchy for this comparsion i think Revan probably prevail, or at least is my opinion, as he won 1 if not 2 difficult wars while Tharwn lost his one... also Revan was a jedi and the force can be considered a "bonus" ove other normal skills. now, maybe if i read Tharwn books and eventual additional material about Revan i can change my mind and opinion and think as Ghost, but still i can't say that the admiral was better, as much my knowledge (and so my opinion) can be flawed now, my knowledge (and so my opinion) will be flawed even after reading all the books around... the problem is that the history of Tharwn is actually closed... more or less we know the peak of his career, the battles he won and how he acted... but that is not true for Revan... his/her history is still open, we don't know how the "sith menace" will be resolved and is possible that there will be another war where Revan will show even greater skills than in past... we don't know yet the peak of Revan history, we know a part but the history is not finished yet. so it seem a bit strange to me to blame other people for ignorance as everyone is ignorant not (eventually) only about Thawern, but even about Revan, as his/her story is probably far away from an ending.

I think is a bit reductive to say that people don't vote for Thrawn because its a Kotor forum and are fans of Revan, about to not know well Thrawn probably you are right (i don't know him very well) but still there are things i know about these chars and is where my opinion comes from... and i don't know Revan more than Thrawn, as in the end we don't know much about him. also saying that it seem to me you are doing the same "mistake" you where speaking about, you really seem a Thrawn fans, to the point that everyone that disagree with you is just wrong because ignorance or "fanatism". (and in the end it doesn't matter much to me who is better, i have expressed my opinion and there it ends)

eheh i really like Kreia (:cool:), is one of my fav SW char and a imo a "titan" in "SW history". for the inspiration i don't know much about Arca, but reading reading the links you posted i don't think they are so close. beware the next lines conain spoilers!!!!! mmm maybe will be better to move this discussion in spoiler forum

i agree that it seem a bit strange but it can still make sense... i can think of 2 reasons why HK repaired the EH 1) it planned to use it but in the meantime was able to contact its "friends" (siths or other HK droids/goto) and the ship was no more in need. 2) (the reason i like the most) it repaired the EH to let Coorta think they are going to escape with it, HK needed to "present" a solid plan to the mandalorea to get his help. is quite obvious that, if they had no means to kidnap/flee from the station, Coorta had not helped HK, so HK needed to repair the EH to make Coorta cooperate.

eheh i missed Revan canonized, you have a link? some times ago i'm sure it was not specified if s/he was male or female, just that was LS also a lot of people where more inclined to consider him/her as female... even TSL by default consider him/her female. (so a sort of canon female)

this is valid before perargus but when the Exile flee is in the same situation as HK they have not unlocked the navcomputer, they can hyperspace to Telos because it was on perargus charts. on the EH, when they just fled from the Harbringer, Atton says tomething like, that if it was for him he was leading to nar shadda, but they are stuck to go to Telos as it was the only destination on perargus charts. so HK, having the same charts, was able to reach Telos... probably it was not its final destination, but still a good one as we know the HK factory and other HK50 droids are on that planet.

not just the ending, but the whole game... the ending makes clear more things, but everything is alredy present during the game... in the end this game is about "enlightment" and not a simple kill the bag guy and save the galaxy... as Kreia says in the beginning... "it is not the destination that matter but the journey" (something like that)

in fact is for these reasons that i say is quite suspicious, it could be just for incongruency but looking at it from a sith perspective it makes quite sense. also i'm not so sure the siths wanted to kill the exile asap, if really that was their plan they had just to open fire on the harbringer destroying it and not to try the capture. in this light many holes actually make quite sense, again i'm not fully supporting this theory, is just a possibility. for the drift charts i don't think it's an hole... maybe invis siths where piloting the ship something like... Sion: "hey guys, they are filming us, turn on your belts so i will look very cool" siths: "sure master" or maybe he was piloting the harbringer with the force and not moving it by the force, maybe he was just operating various controls or simply they put the drift chart in the comp and turned on autopilot while Sion was chatting with Kreia... ehm meditating.

i don't like too much categorization for TSL chars but Kreia is not LS nor DS, maybe not exactly grey but ehm sort of that... in the end is Kreia also even how i see the exile... i don't really consider him/her really LS or DS in the end s/he is a hole, a wound in the force and is not anymore subject to it (as kreia) is not a jedi or a sith anymore... s/he is something different "outside" the force and free from it.

no, here i was referring on Perargus, not the prologue... HK repaired the EH (reprogramming some droids) and killed all the miners, it was able to take the exile and carry s/he on the EH and flee from perargus or, knowing the Harbringer was behind them to help him/her escape on the hawk instead to tell him/her to go in the tank. note that when it happened the harbringer alredy docked to perargus and was obvious that, if exile followed HK suggestions s/he had been captured by siths. but the harbringer had the drifter chart, and the Exile go to the bridge to take them i think this is actually the point... who built them? i'm more inclined to think it was goto and this is the main reason i think they actually work for him... - the fact that they try to stop T3 on nar shadda seem to point to that (at that point the exile was captured so there where no reason to protect goto). - goto "comes" from Tealos where the factory is located and had the capabilities to enter in the military base and produce them. - goto seem also to know whell HK-47 these are some hints that seem to point to the fact that could have be goto to build them, but on the other hand there are some dialogues where it seem it just "hired" them. so let's say that it was not goto... who built them? i think the most probable answer is the siths, HK-47 is a "revan production", so maybe someone knew the project, and these droids where capable to destabilize systems and eventually transmit information about the jedi or republic fleets. and this is what it could have happened both on the harbringer and perargus, with HK that transmitted the Exile location to the siths, made him/her uncounscious, sabotaged the ship/structure and await siths to come to get him/her.

i really like TIE FIGHTER, imo best space sim ever @Calax if Tharwn had not access to new TIEs then yup, at fighter level things where probably quite balanced if not better for new republic but an ISD is way stronger than a mon cal capital ship, if i remember right 1 single ISD can take down 2 mon cals also i see that if most admiral "retired" or "diserted" after the emperor death Tharwn should had a lot of troubles to face the new republic army. (but (if i remember right) probably the worst mistake of Tharwn was to "develope" the missileboat... it was so crappy compared to a TIE defender() while playing all the expansion i was thinking "give me my defender!!!!1111 )