Zilod

is malachor she didn't say the name but is quite obvious... "there is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the force runs strong, is something of the siths but it was fuelled by war" malachor is a dark place, there is a sith academy there in the last battle it is also fuelled by war "the mandalorian wars where a series of massacres to mask another war, a war of conversion" now she is speaking about the war... and about the conversion "culminating in a final atrocity that no jedi could walk away from, save one" what could be that atrocity if not malachor, malachor is the final atrocity, is the last battle wher hundeds of warriors where throw at the planet to feed it. "Revan knew the power of such places and the power making them, they can be used to break the will of others, of jedis, promising them power and turning to the dark side." "it corrupts all that walks on its surface, drawn them with the power of dark side, it corrupts all life and feed on death" is the plan of Revan, the final corruption something so terrible that no one can resist. is really clear we can't say that is not malachor also is stated clearly that the planet had a power by itself and is that power that break the will of the jedis. if the death of other jedi is felt just by the exile and his bound so why other jedi get corrupted? all of these stances will make no more sense. the corruption generated by the planet is strong enought to convert/kill the jedi, they don't need bounds to feel it, the exile himself can hear even whitout his bounds. this is quite important because, even if i think that the force links of the exile are real, in the game there are some dilaogues that can show how these bounds are in reality just the natural leadership ability, so not directly related by the force.

imo they made an awesome job with TSL i really enjoyed it, much more than KOTOR1 is sad that the game could have been better if it where no rushed, but even in its current state i think is one of the best rpg i played.

I think too that the Exile felt it greater than others due to his bounds, but i prefer to not push it too much, during the game we don't know too much about them and in some dialogued (expecially the one with Visas) they don't seem even to exist. also the point here was more the "normal" jedi one and how other force senitive felt the deaths of people crashing on malachor and of the corruption of malachor itself that ended up in their final corruption or death.

yes i agree with that i'm just using Ben example because it have some similarity, he can feel the screams of people that is dieing and he do it by the force. then i agree that the situation is very different Ben is really distant, in hyperspace, and Alderan was not one a dark place like malachor. Think at malachor like a sort of amplifier, it feed on the screams and death just to relase them distorted and 100 times louder with such an strenght and horror that no one near it can resist.

i think that when i speak about screams in the force (and probably even about corruption) i'm speaking even of "the pain of dieing thousands of deaths" because is what jedi where hearing in the force... is a bit like how Ben describes the destruction of alderan, he felt the death of milions of people there as a scream in the force. so i don't see our conclusion very different, i just think that all the jedis felt it, most (or even all) where unable to resist and turned to dark side, some (still loyal to their principles) that tried to resist died (for the reasons above) and the exile that "fled" from it was able to survive.

jedis where feeling it through the force, the corruption and the screams where carried by the force... if the exile is no more linked to it and become a hole to it he can't hear anymore that screams and corruption. other probable jedis (that tied to resist to dark side) died because their attachment to the force where so strong to be more important than their own life... they where not able to renunce to the force so the horror got them. the scared exile fled from that dark energy and from the force itself, so was able to survive.

Generally i agree with you the one inside the weel crashed on the planet and where destroyed, i have no problem with that but this don't imply that the corruption energy of malachor and the scream of the force itself had a range wider than that weel Obi for example feel the destruction of Alderan when he is in hyperspace... so as i see it the ships that where near and above malachor (most mandalorians) crashed on the planet, this created such an energy that is spread in the space around the planet, reaching republic ships that where at a distance of security from the generator effects. these ship where not exposed to the gravity weel, but still they where near enought to be invested by the corruption of the planet.

wait this is out of context, she is telling that after Exile failture on dantooine when he turned out to be just a murderer.... She almost kill the exile saying that something like "you learned nothing" "you are responsable for all of this and even now events will lead to the destraction because you where unable to listen, to undertand" "of all i said you have not learnt to listen.." "you where my only last hope the only one that chould change the future" then she speak about the echoes that the Exile created and she says "If the echoes do not stop, then all that hear them will or be deafened." and then something like "chose the right moment, create the right echo and all shall be destroyed" she is not explaining her plans.... she is blaming the exile because he haven't understand what she taught him! all of this will result in the destruction of the galaxy, and this will be the gift the exile have brought to the galaxy... she doesn't want that to happen and in the end she says to the exile that he must awaken and hear these echoes and stop them or all will be destroyed.

Kreia start to explain the mandalorian wars, Revan's plan and what happened to malachor.... i chose to try to quote directly and then i try to explain how i perceived it. she start speaking about malachor, "there is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the force runs strong, is something of the siths but it was fuelled by war" she is describing Mlachor, it is a dark side place fuelled by the death and by the war, Malachor (and probably trayus academy) where alredy dark places, but was during the final battle that the war and death feed them trosforming it to what it si now. "it corrupts all that walks on its surface, drawn them with the power of dark side, it corrupts all life and feed on death" now she describes the corrupting power of malachor, no one can resist to it, its corruption is so strong that it touches all life (i think she is referring even to non jedi, so to republic soildier that followed Revan after the war) even if referred mostly to the war this description is "general" and we know that malachor is working like that even now (atton refers to such dark places as the training/conversion ground that sith are using with the force sensitive guys) also i think is easy to assume that during the final battle the coruption generated by malachor was much greater than it is now due to the massacre that was happening there. "Revan knew the power of such places and the power making them, they can be used to break the will of others, of jedis, promising them power and turning to the dark side." after the description of malachor and its corruption properties she clearly says that these properties where know by Revan who used them for his purposes. He used (and continue to use) malachor to break the will of the jedis, this is what actually happened during that battle, that corruption made them feel the power of the dark side, submitting them. "did you ever wondered how revan corrupted so many of the jedis, so much of the republic, so quicly?" she continue to explain the plain of Revan showing how malachor was functional to his plan. "the mandalorian wars where a series of massacres to mask another war, a war of conversion" here she show the "true" plan of Revan, and how he acted it. all the war where an excuse to let revan build an army that will follow him regardless of what he had to do. battle after battle, massacre after massacre the jedis with him began to fall to the dark side, praising the power and hating weakness (as kreia says in another point), this was the plan and at this point the process of conversion began. "culminating in a final atrocity that no jedi could walk away from, save one" she is speaking again about malachor... malachor is the last step of the process, to complete it Revan needed an atrocity and a dark place so powerfull that no jedi could resist it. no jedi could walk away from imply that from malachor no jedi have returned (save the exile) this doesn't strictly imply that all jedi there phisically died, but that everyone that not died turned to dark side becoming a sith. the corruption got them, now they are sith, no jedi have returned but siths have returned from that place (as we also know because after that battle Revan's fleet, now sith fleet, followed him) "how one can turn away from such power, give up the force and still live" "it was because you where afraid" now she speak to the exile telling that due to his fear he was "able" to turn away form such power and from the force itself. (for my vision see the example of the child i made in the other post) is clear that every jedi in Revan's fleet felt malachor corruption everyone that survived was changed by the dark side becoming a sith, the Exile is just the only "jedi" that survived whitout turning to dark side. now she didn't mention that jedis died due to that corruption, i'm basing it on the stance of HK that says that Revan "cleaned up the house" at malachor V, is likelly that maybe someone tried to resist to malachor (maybe someone that joined later the war) and we can see during the game the effects that malachor have on such "pure" jedis. before Kreia kills the council she says... "do you wish to feel the teaching of the mandalorian wars, of all wars, of all tragedies that scream across the galaxy?" "see it throug the eyes of the exile" i think she is referring to malachor, the reference of tragedies that scream across the galaxy is quite evident, and even when she tells to see them through the eyes of the exile she refers to what he percieved during that battle (the death of other jedis, and the corruption of malachor itself) after that i think she summons for them the corruption of malachor and drain them from the force. "how could you ever hope to know the threat that you would face when you ever walked in the dark places of the galaxy face war and death to such scale" "echoes that grow in strenght and all that can hear them will become deaf or die" they where not able to resist because of their ignorance, because they always saw tha galaxy filtered by the force and such horros is too much for them there is also the other quote that i don't remember where is stated that tells how was no possible to survive to the screams of people killed by malachor. note that in the end is not so important how many jedi died tring to resist or if all the jedi where corrupted by the force. the importance was that the choices in that place where 2, to die or to being corrupted, and as we can see all the survivors (exept the exile) become siths, according to Revan plan of conversion.

ships immediately near malachor crashed on it the ones out of the range of the generator haven't crushed. i think we can suppose that the exile (who haven't crashed or was on the planet or dunno) was not alone he was fighting with other jedis so for what you say they had not to die on malachor. some mins and i try to quote the dialogue...

where i said that or said you said that? i'm speaking about Revan plan not referring to the Exile in any way when i speak about war.

no jedi is different than no man and also you are exluding all the part she says what was Revan plans that imply that he "built" malachor for that purpose...

nono strongly disagree with this, if you listen at kreia LS dialogue it explain it pretty well.... Kreia herself says that the war where began to change the jedi, on dantooine, she speak about Revan plan to corrupt all his army and malachor was the final step the final corruption that had the power to complete their fall and to kill the ones that tried to resist to it. i can quote all the dialogue but is pretty big, and i have to retranslate it lol , try to listen to that again if is not very clear i'll try to quote and reprase.

the bounds are important for the exile, even if even here the discussion is quite complex as i don't think they are the kind of bounds the councill think about and that they act the way they suppose. what is killing or converting the jedis is malachor's corruption again in the dantooine dialogue (LS) Kreia says something like "There are place in the galaxy where the dark side is powerfull, in parth is a sith thing but is fuelled by the war and it corrputs everyone that walks on it feeding on the dead" and again "Revan knew the power of such places, and the power needed to build them" Revan plans was to convert his army to the dark side and built such a place (malachor) to do that. when the generator was activated the planet was fuelled by the death of jedis and mandalorians crashing on the planet and generated so much corruption that no one was able to sustain it. at this point makes sense all the stances we found in the game that say something like... "the screams in the force where so high that no jedi could sustain it" (Kreia or the Council, don't remember exactly) "such a tragedy that no jedi can go away from it" (Kreia-dantooine LS) "how come one turn away from such power, give up the force and still live" (Kreia-dantooine LS) and even "The Exile 'died' a thousand times over, and he would have died, if he hadn't cut himself off." because it was the destiny of the other jedis that where not "able" to cut themselve from the force. even when Kreia shows to the council malachor by the eyes of the exile i think she is "showing" them the corruption (or the consequences) of such place, a corruption that was generated in that battle and tha the exile felt in first person. also a note i don't think that the exile tought "mmmm if i resist to corruption i will die, if i embrace it i will become a dark side, all i can do is to cut myself from the force". I think it was not a counscios decision too, in my vision it happened something like that... The corruption of malachor was relased, the jedi where suffering due to it's power and the scream in the force by the people died (something as Obi feel when Alderan is destroyed, but by a much higher scale)... If they tried to resist to the corruption (as a good jedi should do) they where destroyed by it resulting in their death ("no jedi can go away from it"). if they felt the power of that corruption and embraced it they become siths ("it corrputs everyone that walks on it ") I think the Exile saw that power, but saw an horror in it that he was not able to sustain, that horror was so high that he was struck by fear and just "tried" to turn away from it and to flee... All of this is quite uncounscious, as a child that run away from something that scared him... i think that the only possible way to turn away from such horror was to turn away from the force itself, as the screams and the corruption where heard and carried by the force itself, so whitout know how he cut himself from the force. in this vision make sense the statement "It was because you where afraid" aaaa i think too that his bounds maybe have make him more sensible to such horror, but this doesn't imply that other jedis where not exposed to something so great to corrupt or kill them (as we can see in the quotes i posted above)

I can't see how this contraddict what i said also i quote some dialogues from the game where is quite clear that all the jedi are suffering the same destiny as the exile... simply there where not "able" to cut themslef from the force.

i agree with almost anything just a little consideration about Kreia... i think she alredy got the knowledge and in KOTOR she try uses it to give counsciosness to the to the exile. I think the exile is out of force control, but indirectly a tool for her purpose. On malachor he was able to chose his destiny regarldess the choices that force put in front of him, i think is interesting when master biker describe him as blade that cut the future. Still i think that in JTL he is under the influence of the force as he is under the influence of Kreia. Due to this influence the exile becomes "predictable" and the force, manipulating Kreia is also manipulating him. Also most of the time the force is manipulating the ones around him and in most cases it end up using the Exile as an instrument. for example on Dantooine even if the exile is "free" he have to deal with the choices of the council (enslaved ) ending up in a no choice. even for Atris it seem to be similar, with a "no choice" for the exile (and for Atris), but there something is different. It seem that Atris destiny there comes to the end, she will die by the hand of the exile or by the hands (???) of the dark side (holocorns) it seem that as the masters, or the jedi on malachor she have no other choice but here that the exile can give her a 3rd choice that i see out of "force control" freeing herself from her enslavement. If i interpretate this right it could show how the exile is really free from the force and how he can act against her, even if she is trying to manipulate him using the ones around him. i think will be also interesting to try to understand if the force want to destroy the exile, i see dantooine as something like that, but is just a tought. as said i still consider the Exile to be free, expecially after Kreia death, what will happens after KOTOR2... i don't think the exile will cut again himself from the force, at this point he is alredy free and will not be usefull, i think will be interesting to know what will happen in KOTOR3... in my opinion the level and the characters of JTL are so high that will not be easy to reach it again. the fight for "freedom",for enlightment, for evolution, to free the galaxy from its enslavement is so important that a "simple" fight to save the galaxy against a menace, regardless of its danger, seem trivial to me...

(sorry for the cut/copy but i think it fit here eheh ) for the difficulty consider that all the game is pretty easy, so should not surprise that Nihilus (and other big guys) are not very challening, also consider that his main power is to drain force and as he can't use that power on you, he can't show his real strenght in that battle. For Nihilus past i liked the decision to keep it a mistery, it makes it looks like a sort of ghost and define better is role of primitive force. Also his past is pointless at this time as he is no more a man, if we knew who he was probably he will be less "fascinating" His role in the game is not so "useless", he is probably the main threat to the galaxy with his capacity to drain the force (and the life itself) form livings, he destroyed the miraluka planet, almost all jedi order, and will consume the galaxy itself if not stopped. Said that is not useless we can't even say that is really a main one, the game is mostly a path of enlightment, not good vs evil, so, even if in essence he is probably the main villain, he could have not too much space in the story or probably he will weaken the main plot (who is alredy quite difficult). Ingame i see Nihilus as a sort of puppet in the hand of kreia, probably he can't be controlled directly but due to his "simple" nature he can be lured and fooled. Kreia uses him just as a way to test you in the right moment facing a sort of anthitesis of yourself. The Exile and Nihilus are probably very similar in their essence, but their intents, are in strong opposition, he is like a sort of specular image of the exile. for Visas we really don't know, Kreia says that maybe it was just a last trace of humanity, maybe he spared her for compassion or love... Maybe he saw her as similar to him and for that affinity he chose her as his apprentice. Also we must consider that Visas vision is superior to Nihilus one, so she is a usefull tool for him.

I really liked the original trilogy, expecially ANH and ESB comparing them to KOTOR1 i think the movies are a bit superior but JTL in my opinion is very superior than both. also generally during movies is difficult to go deep into characters, expecially for movies like SW that try to build an heroic adventure. in a game (or a book) there is much more time to go explaine and develop both characters and story making them complex and deep. (of course if the game is really well done)

nope, during the game is said something like... "the screams, the pain where so high that no jedi could resist them" every jedi was experiencing that what was killing or converting the jedis was Malachor itself the purpose of Revan was to bound his/her trooups to him/her converting them to dark side and killing the one that will not follow him (HK says "to clean up the house" if i remember right) every jedi was experiencing what the Exile felt, every jedi had the "choice" to leave the force but no one exept him chose that, they chose to die instead to be separed from the force. So was not just the "what the human normally does" or other jedis have done the same, the natural instinct of self conservation was weaker than the bound to the force (tahn the will of the force). On dantooine also Kreia says "mandalorian wars wher a war of conversion [..] culminating in such a tragedy that no jedi can go away from it, save one" and again "how come one turn away from such power, give up the force and still live" "It was because you where afraid"

I'm not telling that the single individual have no choices, just that the choice is ininflential for what we see and will point to a determined destiny regardless of his desires. 2 examples i made above... the council decide to not to train anakin counscios that it will end in its own destruction... at the end of the movie Anakin is a padawan Revan decide to save the galaxy, sacrifice himself do its best... the republic is almost shattered, both jedis and sith destroyed in both examples a choice was made but in the end it didn't ment anithing..... regardless of the path chose the end of the road point in the same direction, to the same place. i think is also interesting to see the choice that a jedi had at Malachor.... to follow the code, not succumb to the dark side (and to die) (light side) to surrender to the corruption embracing the dark side. (dark side) in both situation you end up with all the remaining jedis as dark siders, regardless of the choices of the single... their choices where just choices in the force, between dark and light, between a future or a nother but that in the global scheme had just 1 end. the only one able to make his own choice was the exile that chose his path and forged his destiny (and the ones around him) as a man outside the force. it's not ingame, is just a personal consideration considering his potential and what s/he achieved, but as said i'm quite sure it will change in KOTOR3 (even if i think s/he will not become as great as the Exile)

wait i don't think that what makes her great is her manipulative genius or her power or her pony tails... i think that what put her over everyone else is her consciousness i can think that she is the most powerfull force use in SW or the prettiest woman in the galaxy (when she was younger) but that is just a sort of ininfluential idealization... her strenght is her understanding of the force, a knowledge that i didn't saw in any other SW character (exile and revan included) probably i see her even greater than the Exile to a degree, even if the Exile is something that she can't be (or she become with her death?). for Revan i admit that i have not a high opinion about him/her, for what we know s/he was quite a failture and delusion, but i think things will change in KOTOR3 eheh

i just say a thing.... midichlorians..... the exile took some anthibiotics and killed all his minimicrobs while Nihilus have an infestation of hungry cannibal midichlorians. a part of jokes i found the layer example very pertinet in a force vision of the Exile and Nihilus (at least with my force vision eheh)

@The Great Phantom LOL i really didn't understood what you meant... is late and my english is crappy eheh @AngryTraiser i think that the only instrumental deaths are the ones of the sith lords Kreia is not telling you to kill all that moves, she also blame you if you turn out to be "just an assassin". Most of the death, expecially if you play LS, are done for self defence (and for the "level" game mechanic eheh)

?????

mmm what is to come? She "prepared" the Exile to be a Man, an example or an overman. Dark Force Witch is a class and definition... why dark force? she's not a dark sider, as much as she is not a lightsider i really see her above these definitions, and she treat them with despise.