Zilod

Was not Kreia or the Exile to do that. what you see is the force that is achieving balance... Kreia and the Exile are moving in this scenario but this doesn't imply that this happened due to their will.

mmmm i think she knew that and it show it when she sepak of the force in the end (she seem very angry in my opinion) Everyone is manipulated by the force... Revan, Malak, Nihilus, the council and yes Kreia herself, everyone of them become a tool that the force uses to achieve it's goals... provably even the Exile can be included in the list, even if he is not directly, The difference for Kreia is that she understand, and she knows she can't change that destiny, all is alredy set by the force, but still she can forge the exile that can be an example for the others (as said in the long post). I think in the end she is also successfull in her goal, when she tells you that you alredy saved her and that you have for her more than you can guess she see that you finally have finished (or finishing) your process of enlightment. your victory is her victory, the hope you bring is her hope, regardless of the will of the force.

No i don't think that Kreia seeks revenge, or she have not to die and the story could have ended with the council or Nihilus death her goal is to forge the Exile not to kill the ones that betrayed her about the council she says that in first person if you kill the council she says that she was not seeking revenge, yes she wanted to show them their blindness and that to be done by one of her students, in no way she wanted to kill them. even more important in that dialogue she show how she hate the "violence" of the war and of death... If the exile begin to speak about killing all his enemies turning out to be a sadic tool of destruction then she tells him that he have not understood anything and that he just become a sterile assassin and murderer. (evenually i can quote the dialogue, but as my english is crappy better to hear that directly, is the first part of the dialogue after the exile just killed the council, there is also a bug in LS that make this happens, if you ask to the council if they see the death in you then you should get the bug and be able to experience the DS part of the enclave. this is a very interesting dialogue that explain a lot about Kreia, the Exile and what she expect from him) (aaa i didn't saw the helicopter analogy can you repost it?)

If you are referring to the experience on Malachor i think that even Kreia understand what the Exile have suffered, i see that when she speak to the jedi council (before killing them ) If you are referring of the fact that the Exile is severed from the force i disagree... Only the council (end the Exile) see this as a bad thing, they see the exile as deaf, blind and incomplete, but they really can't understand him. I think in this case is very important what Visas says after dantooine... something like: "they saw you as the death of the force, i see you as the hope for the livings" I think that what happens in the game is a process of enlightment to makes the exile understand what he really is. Why only the strong should survive? I think that what Kreia consider strenght is the ability to fight to improve our condition and to resolve our problems, (expressing ourselves). Kreia is also not considering the force as the essence of life, yes the force is bounded to life but is not its essence, i think this is the vision of the jedi and is for that that they can't understand the Exile, they just see the death in him and for them he is a deathbringer.... Atris is quite clear about that... she says something like "he is dead on malachor and he continue to die". In the other post i was trying to show how in my opinon Kreia and the model she propose is a positive and creative one and the eventual point of contacts with a positive overman who is different than an egoistic (nazi) one incarned by Nihilus. mmm also maybe is better to move on a new topic, we are going way OT.

I don't think is so malleable... look at what happens... Revan enter in war to stop the true sith and malak(lure by the dark side of the force) stop him throwing is plan out of window and creating the base for the destruction of the jedis. Nihilus is created and proceed to the extermination of all jedi (and is not created by Traya, he is probably created by Revan and by the Exile) Mandalorian wars and Jedi wars are made to destabilize the republic and make jedis vulnerable (when Kreia says that the republic is a shell for the jedi order and all the discussion about about the fact that where the jedi the target of the other wars) first 2 episodes Anakin is born on tatooine as a slave and by luck is found by Qui-Gon The jedi council refuse to train Anakin but at the end of EP1 he becomes Kenobi's padawan Anakin's mother (who even in EP1 is felt as a "weakness" by the council) is captured and killed by tuskens, beginning the process of fall Even if Amidala is fighting to not enter in war the resolution is approved (when she is not on coruscant) and the war, as the jedi civil war, will weaken both the republic and the jedis preparing the path for the jedi destruction. All of this is made regardless of the choices of someone that become pointless, all is pointing to an inevitable destiny where all the choices are twisted. and i don't agree with the vision of the Nazi philosopy, who is different than Nietzsche Ubermensch, the idea of a man that can express himself and is able to change the world around him is not itself an "evil" idea. I think that one as Gandi and Martin Luther King can be considered positive example of what a overman can be, as with their example where able to change the world and to bring a positive evolution. I think that there the main problem is when the overman become so important to annihilate the importance of the humanity itself putting himself above the morality and of the "good" and evolution he should bring. Even the chatolic doctrine for example have some points of contact with that, the development of our own talents is not so distant to what Kreia is pointing at, i think that what makes the difference is what move this Man. If an overman act in an optic of service, to improve the humanity with a creative process that makes the ones around him to evole here that we have a positive man, but if the overman act for his own interest and greed, regardless of the ones around him we end up with a "monster" as it happened with nazi doctrine. I think that Kreia and the game is pointing to first example, a positive overman, the Exile is an overman that should free the humanity from his enslavement and to permit him to evolve and grow. I see Nihilus is another overman that incarnate the second model, the bad one, he put himself above all others and all he does is for himself "to satisfy his hunger" and Kreia is the first that want to destroy this egocentric abominion. (also as i don't remember too much about Nietzsche philosopy () i hope that someone will correct my tought about Nietzsche if they demonstrate totally out of point, but still i think that Kreia is pointing to a positive model that will improve all the humanity)

She would strenghten the man... The force is not just a usefull tool, force sensitive use the force to sustain themselves, to fill their weakness, due to this they will never improve or "fight" to become better as the force is there. for example if you break your legs to point that you need to do a lot of reabilitation to walk again but instead to "fight" and to do exercice you go around with a wheelchair is likely that you will never walk again. the force is like that it prevents to develop your own skills becoming a sort of "replacement" of yourself. The force is also something you can't really control, as Kreia says (and even Yoda to a degree), is manipulative and prepare a destiny for everyone, it doesn't care about humanity it just seek balance, regardless of how many people will die. The mandalorean and jedi civil war are made for that, the jedi extermination by Nihilus is made for that. Even in the first trilogy we see a similar path... Kreia propose is a human evolution, she is not looking for a world where the stronger put in submission the weak one (is this even wtih the force) she is looking to a world where a man can express himself and his talents, forgin his own destiny. Probably she want to create a echo, but that one is the Exile that can be an example for all the humanity. (if someone was cheated by the "true siths" or by the force i think that it could be Revan.... provocation hihi )

That is the Force not Kreia as i'm lazy and i'm discussing it on another topic (the Kreia/Kae one) i repost here... is the cut/copy so maybe is not very pertinent to what is being told there, but it shows how i see her (and the force).

No i don't think that Kreia seeks revenge, or she have not to die and the story could have ended with the council or Nihilus death her goal is to forge the Exile not to kill the ones that betrayed her about the council she says that in first person if you kill the council she says that she was not seeking revenge, yes she wanted to show them their blindness and that to be done by one of her students, in no way she wanted to kill them. even more important in that dialogue she show how she hate the "violence" of the war and of death... If the exile begin to speak about killing all his enemies turning out to be a sadic tool of destruction then she tells him that he have not understood anything and that he just become a sterile assassin and murderer. (evenually i can quote the dialogue, but as my english is crappy better to hear that directly, is the first part of the dialogue after the exile just killed the council, there is also a bug in LS that make this happens, if you ask to the council if they see the death in you then you should get the bug and be able to experience the DS part of the enclave. this is a very interesting dialogue that explain a lot about Kreia, the Exile and what she expect from him) (aaa i didn't saw the helicopter analogy can you repost it?)

AAARRRRRGH!!!! :'( i see Kreia as a very positive character, but you have not to see her or the game in a "power perspective" but in a "enlightment" one. she bring hope not death

If you are referring to the experience on Malachor i think that even Kreia understand what the Exile have suffered, i see that when she speak to the jedi council (before killing them ) If you are referring of the fact that the Exile is severed from the force i disagree... Only the council (end the Exile) see this as a bad thing, they see the exile as deaf, blind and incomplete, but they really can't understand him. I think in this case is very important what Visas says after dantooine... something like: "they saw you as the death of the force, i see you as the hope for the livings" I think that what happens in the game is a process of enlightment to makes the exile understand what he really is. Why only the strong should survive? I think that what Kreia consider strenght is the ability to fight to improve our condition and to resolve our problems, (expressing ourselves). Kreia is also not considering the force as the essence of life, yes the force is bounded to life but is not its essence, i think this is the vision of the jedi and is for that that they can't understand the Exile, they just see the death in him and for them he is a deathbringer.... Atris is quite clear about that... she says something like "he is dead on malachor and he continue to die". In the other post i was trying to show how in my opinon Kreia and the model she propose is a positive and creative one and the eventual point of contacts with a positive overman who is different than an egoistic (nazi) one incarned by Nihilus. mmm also maybe is better to move on a new topic, we are going way OT.

I don't think is so malleable... look at what happens... Revan enter in war to stop the true sith and malak(lure by the dark side of the force) stop him throwing is plan out of window and creating the base for the destruction of the jedis. Nihilus is created and proceed to the extermination of all jedi (and is not created by Traya, he is probably created by Revan and by the Exile) Mandalorian wars and Jedi wars are made to destabilize the republic and make jedis vulnerable (when Kreia says that the republic is a shell for the jedi order and all the discussion about about the fact that where the jedi the target of the other wars) first 2 episodes Anakin is born on tatooine as a slave and by luck is found by Qui-Gon The jedi council refuse to train Anakin but at the end of EP1 he becomes Kenobi's padawan Anakin's mother (who even in EP1 is felt as a "weakness" by the council) is captured and killed by tuskens, beginning the process of fall Even if Amidala is fighting to not enter in war the resolution is approved (when she is not on coruscant) and the war, as the jedi civil war, will weaken both the republic and the jedis preparing the path for the jedi destruction. All of this is made regardless of the choices of someone that become pointless, all is pointing to an inevitable destiny where all the choices are twisted. and i don't agree with the vision of the Nazi philosopy, who is different than Nietzsche Ubermensch, the idea of a man that can express himself and is able to change the world around him is not itself an "evil" idea. I think that one as Gandi and Martin Luther King can be considered positive example of what a overman can be, as with their example where able to change the world and to bring a positive evolution. I think that there the main problem is when the overman become so important to annihilate the importance of the humanity itself putting himself above the morality and of the "good" and evolution he should bring. Even the chatolic doctrine for example have some points of contact with that, the development of our own talents is not so distant to what Kreia is pointing at, i think that what makes the difference is what move this Man. If an overman act in an optic of service, to improve the humanity with a creative process that makes the ones around him to evole here that we have a positive man, but if the overman act for his own interest and greed, regardless of the ones around him we end up with a "monster" as it happened with nazi doctrine. I think that Kreia and the game is pointing to first example, a positive overman, the Exile is an overman that should free the humanity from his enslavement and to permit him to evolve and grow. I see Nihilus is another overman that incarnate the second model, the bad one, he put himself above all others and all he does is for himself "to satisfy his hunger" and Kreia is the first that want to destroy this egocentric abominion. (also as i don't remember too much about Nietzsche philosopy () i hope that someone will correct my tought about Nietzsche if they demonstrate totally out of point, but still i think that Kreia is pointing to a positive model that will improve all the humanity)

She would strenghten the man... The force is not just a usefull tool, force sensitive use the force to sustain themselves, to fill their weakness, due to this they will never improve or "fight" to become better as the force is there. for example if you break your legs to point that you need to do a lot of reabilitation to walk again but instead to "fight" and to do exercice you go around with a wheelchair is likely that you will never walk again. the force is like that it prevents to develop your own skills becoming a sort of "replacement" of yourself. The force is also something you can't really control, as Kreia says (and even Yoda to a degree), is manipulative and prepare a destiny for everyone, it doesn't care about humanity it just seek balance, regardless of how many people will die. The mandalorean and jedi civil war are made for that, the jedi extermination by Nihilus is made for that. Even in the first trilogy we see a similar path... Kreia propose is a human evolution, she is not looking for a world where the stronger put in submission the weak one (is this even wtih the force) she is looking to a world where a man can express himself and his talents, forgin his own destiny. Probably she want to create a echo, but that one is the Exile that can be an example for all the humanity. (if someone was cheated by the "true siths" or by the force i think that it could be Revan.... provocation hihi ) for the beauty... for a man is more difficult to "recognize" and speak of the beauty of another man, i have some problems too with that , for a woman i see that is generally different as they are more inclined to discuss and appreciate the beauty of other wimen.

jumping in just to for a fast thing... the Rakatan used the force technology, but during the declining(?) phase of infinite empire they lost they ability to use the force and to capability to use that technology. at this point their technology had an involution and they where force to build things that they where able to use even whitout the force. is quite probable that Rakatan ships/fighters stored in starforge database and build by Revan/Malak used this technology and not the force one is also for this reason these ships/fighters are not extremely superior to the republic ones. is also plausible that Revan's programmers/engineers modified the original design to make it suitable to the siths and even in this case it can apply to fighters or ships

EQ2/SWG engine seem also very suitable for this kind of game (and even there pathfinding can be problematic) but dunno if it can be converted for a consile like xbox

Lol i can imagine Juhani chasing Candyman with her sabre yellin "I will be your DOOM!" very nice picture finally some fanart about Visas

I mostly agree, but i have also to say that IMO the romance is not so developed, i don't want the "final kiss" or something like that, just i had the impression that nothing change between the chars, we don't get any intimity (ehm not fisical one ) i don't know her better, nor she will know me.... but this is in general for all the romances of TSL KOTOR had more childish romances with heavy flirts, but overall i found they where more developed and during the romance you got a better understandment of the character.

nono the Betrayal path seem to be quite fixed and clear she have first to be betrayed to become a traytor so before she turns against the code and to betray it she have to be betrayed she speak about that when she meet Atris aaaaa you put the blade in the wound yup i know and sadly i can't do anything exept to agree.... *sigh*

both are stated ingame (who is the first source of information), this in my eyes makes them equal, i look to some info i think they are alien, you look to other things and and see them as republic. i see the database as an encyclopedia that grab the informations from the game, is probable that the guy that compiled the infos had the same vision as your and considered some hints more important to others but doesn't make other hints false. Is also likelly that the "specifics" of the leviathan changed during the game, maybe at the beginning it was supposed to be an alien ship then during the game they decided to introduce Saul and the Leviathan become republic, or maybe was the opposite they decided to give to the sith very alien design ships and so they draw them in that manner and made that dialogues... Maybe they simply didn't noticed that there where these 2 things conflitting.... The only way to clearly see what the ship is will be with a dev that explain, after more than an year, the "final project" and all the points of varios theories, but frankly i don't think it will happen, nor i'm asking for it... KOTOR was very good and things like that are just small "holes" that can happen and for sure not essential for the game itself.

i'm not discarding anyone, was just sayng that the designer is not an engineer about my point i think that finally you got it in your last post when you say... here my posts about that. i really think that something was messed up here... As there is not something that really clarify what happened all is about speculation... i have my reasons to think they are of alien design you have yours to think is a republic ship. There are things that seem to make clear that that the ship is a republic one and other that point in the opposite direction.

Uops sorry for 3D i meant the thread design it can probably referred even to the whole project, and whit the hull shape as the most evident thing... if someone tells me about the design of a car for example the first thing i guess is the shape of the car and its line and then maybe by interiors... for example i don't think to the engine, suspensions and generally the mechanic of it, they are of competence of engineers more than designers

I really like SW i also like RPG, even if i don't play them too much... atm i'm more about online games... i heard that it was quite good, liked the ambientation... so i got KOTOR just "to try" in a moment i was quite lazy... (some months after it was out) Then i enjoyed the game and when TSL came out i grabbed it and liked it even more than the original

....i said to read the 3D.... it speak about ships of alien design Battlewookiee quoted that from the game files also 213374U was quite sure that there was another reference even in the loading screen.

ewww the main source is the game itself the databank draw its info from it. in the game by dialogues and seem by loading screen is "stated" that the curved ship is of alien design. i can debate that maybe Saul changed his ship after he proven to be loyal to ship and the ship we see in KOTOR1 is not the same he used in mandalorian wars. in same way you can debate that maybe the statement that "the sith fleet is mainly composed by alien design ship" is not referred to the curved ships, even if they seem to be the backbone of sith fleet. as said if you read all the 3D this is more than debated.

People say this often but with this combo it does stack, only the -own name- crystal doesn't allow extra bonus stat improvements (even if it is a stat NOT given by the -own name-crystal.) 2 normal (non-own-name) will stack (got my own +2 wis, +1 attack and a +1 wis +1 cha to test this and got +3 wis +1 cha bonus) (Made a topic about this in the Technical issues forum) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> this is actually one of the tests i run andi ended up with a sabre +2 wis +1 cha (same crystals as your) my version is PC one, so probably on xbox it works different