Zilod

they are not bugs is all normal and intended as said by Ada the sword generation is random (for example i had not received a short LS, exept the tomb one, during my first game) for HK various droid vendors sell some of its parts

:cool:

it reminds me when i tried the DS end in KOTOR i read a bit the post about the cut stuff... but is not that Kreia capture them instead of kill all? if i remember right ther's nothing that says they are actually killed and i think that Atton death fit in this ending... party member engage Kreia, she incap all of them, Sion carry them inside the academy and begin to torture Atton...

I agree with KungFuFerret too probably KOTOR1 had a more "important" motivation that seemed to give a more clear path... find the starmaps to save the galaxy while TSL have a more pesronal one... find the master to know who you are. also in TSL you can't do too much for your enemies, they are hidden for most of the time and you have no clue how to defeat them. the end of KOTOR was quite closed and evident, you save or rule the galaxy, while in TSL is more subtle as you learn to know yourself and leave to join Revan. I think that these things made KOTOR1 not better, but generally clearere, you have an important and defined goal, you end with savind or conquering the galaxy and so on, while for the exile most of the goal and the story is about himself, is also true that you save the galaxy but even that seem quite collateral to your enlightment. Then as said i agree with KungFuFerret and i really like the Exile and TSL with its deep and complex story.

i think it can be problematic to have revan and the exile as a npc they are both player character, they simply can't chose a standard face and probably voice for them. for these reason i think that if they will be (alive) in game they will be playable. KOTOR seem to be the Revan trilogy, so i think that in a way or another his story will end in the next chapter. for the side i think it will be not a problem, after TSL i doubt that Revan can be again DS, in my opinion s/he will be grey and in particular the uberguy mentioned in KOTOR1. and as a romantic guy i really hope that both Revan and the Exile will come back home after they defeat the siths

for the difficulty consider that all the game is pretty easy, so should not surprise that Nihilus (and other big guys) are not very challening, also consider that his main power is to drain force and as he can't use that power on you, he can't show his real strenght in that battle. For Nihilus past i liked the decision to keep it a mistery, it makes it looks like a sort of ghost and define better is role of primitive force. Also his past is pointless at this time as he is no more a man, if we knew who he was probably he will be less "fascinating" His role in the game is not so "useless", he is probably the main threat to the galaxy with his capacity to drain the force (and the life itself) form livings, he destroyed the miraluka planet, almost all jedi order, and will consume the galaxy itself if not stopped. Said that is not useless we can't even say that is really a main one, the game is mostly a path of enlightment, not good vs evil, so, even if in essence he is probably the main villain, he could have not too much space in the story or probably he will weaken the main plot (who is alredy quite difficult). i must admit that i wish to had some more about him, maybe a cutscene with the attack at Visas world... probably a drammatic scene and also usefull to understand better his true power and the nature of his threat.

I doubt Kreia is still Darth Traya, i don't consider her a sith anymore, i think she put back her old cloak just for the final test of the Exile. maybe i trust her too much, but many times she said she left that role about that is very interesting what she say when she meet Atris Atris calls her a sith and pretend to be the last jedi but Kreia says that they are just titles and not what they are.

i think they did that to allow you to be able to turn either way, light or dark even later into the game. playing darkside i noticed how many times some of the other characters are trying to convince the exile not to fall to the darkside and was tempted to back to being lightside. i only stuck with being a sith because i had already finished the game as a lightside character. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's a fair point, and I'll rephrase what I said. I didn't like the fact that I was constantly having to tell the game what kind of person the Exile had been at Malachor 5. I would have liked to fix his past motivations and behaviour earlier on, in order to develop a better understanding of the character, while keeping his future path completely open. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> the problem with that is at the beginning the player doesn't know too much about malachor V, for this reason will be problematic to chose a satisfying past. The way it is now as you slowly put together the pieces of your past you get the options to chose what happened. If you condensate all the questions about the exile past in the beginning you have to give to the players a lot of infos (lines to read) to understand what happened and then you have to ask them a lot of question to define their past. Thi could also end to be boring if the process takes to long and also consider that even later in the game is it possible that npcs will ask you similar questions, as maybe they don't know what happened you. I'm not saying that this kind of approach is worse or wrong, it will give to the player a good understanding of his past keeping intact the possibility to chose it as he likes, but as said above it could have some cons too.

Why, though? Did I miss a reference to this in the game? Who's to say that destroying the Force will have any negative effects at all, beyond a handful of Jedis and force sensitives losing their special abilities? The Force may link all life, but it doesn't necessarily sustain it. And the exile proves that life can exist without the force. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't think she want to "destroy" the force in the literal way, i'm more inclined to think she want to give to humanity a model of a man that can be complete whitout the force, an example to follow to free the bounds of the force. During the game she is "forging" a free man, and there is also very interesting what she says on Nar Shadda... when you feel the planet you get options to make her speak about to change the things and the manipulation. She see the manipulation as the one of an example that can change things and as she also say even the smallest thing can generate a storm that will change the galaxy. (my memory is crappy and i'm too lazy to quote it exatle, but is a very interesting dialogue)

eheh reposting my vision... Malachor V had 2 purposes for Revan 1) to destroy mandalorian fleet Revan want to lure the enemy ship and to activate the generator to make them crash on the planet. thing that actually put an end to the war, even with a lot of casualities. 2) Revan is converting his own soldier so they will follow him as a sith. he knows about the power of the ancient academy and of malachor itself and he knows that fuelling him with an ounslaught (???) wil generate a corruption power so great that no one will stand against it. The jedi will have no choices, they will be forced to conversion and the few ones that will try to resist will simply die for the "horror" of that place (the deaths, the corrupting energy and so on). this point is explained by Kreia on dantooine when she say something like Mandalorian wars was a war of conversion... There are places where the dark force is strong and crush the will of the ones that adventure in that places... (very approssimative quote) and then.... Revan knew the power of these places and the power needed to create them. and in another point of the game Kreia or maybe jedi masters (don't remember) tells to the exile that for a jedi was impossible to survive to the screams in the force of people crushing on Malakor.

Yes Mira in the beginning have not strong motivation, but there are some... The biker jedi, who is her friend, ask her to protect you also consider that you risked your life to save her and doing that you where captured. I think for these reason Mira got "attached" to the Exile and when she says something like (i go with memory)... He is my prey and i keep him, or... you are my prey and i will not let other hunters to harm you, can be indicative of that. Consider even that you can turn Mira into a jedi in the first dialogue (as said in a previous post), so the first time you meet her... If you do that then she will feel complete and no more vulnerable and will see you as her master. (is also the only char that i remember thanks you for turning her a jedi). The Handmaiden at the beginnin is on a mission for Atris, is Atris that "order" her to follow you

your character is not responsible for what happened at m5, revan was. he meant it to be a brutal fight where a lot of people especially those who wouldnt follow him if he went sith died. your character didnt destroy that world the way nihlus did that other planet. the exile was only a lesson on how to create wounds in the force. The wound of the force is also Nihilus (and probably other sith lords) that killed all the jedi and will consume the galaxy if not stopped. And as Kreia tells you at dantooine, you are the one who created Nihilus... she says something like... your gift to the galaxy was the destruction... and again the sith lords learnt their lession from you, you taught them how to estabilish bound to drain the livings if the Exile had not recided his bound with the force nothing of this had happened... the galaxy will be full (ehm maybe not too full) of jedis, the miraluka will be happy in her world and probably the republic will be in a bit better situation (due to the jedi support). Also the Exile probably will be dead at the time of TSL and the force will not be "in danger". Kreia is the character that drive the story, her cents can be really usefull to understand what is happening or at least to understand her motivations and who you are, that in the end is the final goal of the character. note for kbned, plz when you quote put the name and the contest of the quote, in your other post it seem that i'm telling you are an idiot.

kbned The educated opinion stopped when he said that everyone that don't agree with him are idiots. and your comparsion with the review of the code by a programmer is totally out of place and just a comparsion that try to give you credits why? because generally a non programmer doesn't know anything about code, if i speak you in a language you don't know i can't ask you to understand me. a story is something that everyone have knowledge to a degree, we start to hear them when we are kids and for all our life we will hear stories (books, movies, games, music and so on). a writer should have a good knowledge of how to build a story and of a good structure, but for the reasons stated above this doesn't imply that a reader can't have a good knowledge too. also note that is the people that read that actually decide if a writer is good or not, he can think to be the best writer in the world, but if people doesn't understand what he is writing that is just his opinion. and sorry but i don't see how to citate the family of other posters can show your point of view, your statement was totally pointless and in my opinion just a cheap attemp to irritate other people.

I think that this made me a bit angry... why? Because you are imply that the story is bad because you have not liked it, and people is just fooling themselves because they where fooled... I think to have the criticism to know what i like and i dislike whitout having others to tell me that. with that stance you are just insulting people that don't think the same as you, imply that they have simply not the capacity or the honesty to know what they like or not. maybe i have to make a declaration under the truth machine, but i liked the game, and is not that i'm suggesting to my friends to grab it because the dark side got me and i want to fool them as i was fooled, but because i think it is really an awesome game... and no i'm not blinded, i saw some bugs, the graphic is not awesome, the music is of low quality (even if is good), the end was cut.... what makes it a good game for me is the story. so just to say again and again and to make it clear i really liked the story of this game that in my opinion have some amazing ideas. about your original points... i say it again more clear. point 1 is mostly a choice, better background vs more freedom of interpretation, both have pro and cons, but the fact to like one more than another makes not one really superior to the other. point 2 i think was quite proven that you where mostly wrong as for almost every char you mentioned had good reasons to follow you (as not just me, but even other posters stated) point 3 is just a personal taste, i was emotionally satisfied you where not, i liked the game, you not... we are different, with different sensibilities, we have all the right to have different opinions and to like/dislike a thing so please don't try to force me to dislike the game as i don't force you to like it.

i don't want to enter in the "title" discussion but consider also that not only writers can have understanding of good stories... I don't see why a "good" reader can be as much good with that and also many times critics are not writers themselves. Even the style and the construction itself in the end is not absolute, it could change from society to society and it also evolves with time. but i wanted to point to another thing... is it so true that SW is so black/white? is true that there is a strong definition of good/bad, but also sometimes we meet some character that are a bit more vague... i'm thinking to Lando in ESB, Qui-Gon or even Anakin in ep2 the force itself is not so defined in the end, when we speak about it we speak about light side and dark side, not about light force and dark force... I think that the word is quite interesting, as it imply that the "real" force is both of them but it give also the idea that what we see of the force are just opposite surfaces, sides of something more vast and between them. edit: i'm not saying that the movies are vague and with soft tones, is quite clear that in te movies the opposition of light/dark, good/bad, is really strong. I'm just saying that the idea of a grey area and not "clear" character is alredy present in the movies themselves.

I had the impression too that Kreia had a lot of knowledge about the force, but she doesn't share it with us... She generally say that not the jedi, nor the siths have the knowledge of it and what they understand about the force is restricted by their pilosophy. She say that the force control and forge destiny of people but not much more. By what she say we can't argue too much, even if we speak about the "will" of the force it could be a conscious will, or something like the fate in ancient mithology. All these infos are nothing really new, and can be extrapolated from the original trilogy. even the definition of the force as light and dark side imply that they are just different sides of a same coin, and you can't know the coin looking at just one side. I don't think she gave us a bite of the apple, she is keeping it for herself

I don't understand why so many see Kreia as a sort of Jolee Bindo and TSL as the grey way... Kreia is against the force, light, dark and grey, is against the essence of the force itself that manipulate humanity and prevent to many people to realize their potential. as said in the other post i consider Kreia view, and TSL one, a no force point of view.

Interesting considerations for sure... Kreia's man for sure have many points of contact with the ubermensh, but also i don't see the Exile as the leader of a galaxy subject to his will, she is trying to build mostly an example for the others than a "classical leader". Also i see her centrality of the man more intimistic than in the Nietzsche doctrine, the Man she speak about is the one that fight against obstacles, and eventually his condition, using his own strenght whitout relying too much on the fate or external help. Instead to see her man as the god-man of the ubermnesh, i see him more as the man that realize, fulfill himself using his own "talents" a man that have the choice to do that. Now i'm not saying that Kreia is is the kind of character near the christian doctrine, she is cynical and selfish most of the time, but as said i see her model, pointing more on that direction that the one of the ubermensh. Speaking about the force and SW universe i think this translate in a very surprising way. (i know i alredy said that many times in other 3d ) SW is so full of the force that a man whitout the force is just a weak one, the force gives a sort of nobility and the example of Han Solo is quite clear of that. In the movies Han was an important hero and the fact that in EU he become a force sensitive (as almost all other heroes) is indicative that the tought that is the force to give the "nobility of the hero" and the capability to realize important things. A "normal" man could have not done what Han have done, a normal man is gimped whitout the force and will always be an incomplete hero. TSL have an antithetic point of view about that, what for SW is nobility and power here is an obstacle that prevent to the man to realize himself, what for SW is a weakness here is a point of strenght. The force become something that blind the man vision and his tought, a force that prepare the destiny for mens so not a tool to make them better, but a thing that obstacle the own human nature and manipulate it for its own end. For a jedi the force is all, is more important than his own life, a jedi rely on the force to fill his weakness and is quite clear that such behavior will not be helpfull for a man to develope his own talents and potential. This vision can be a bit extreme, but i must say that i see it not to far on how i saw the force pictured in the original movies, the tought of a "dominating" force is very empathized but i think this is an interesting point of view. It could be also interesting to translate the force back to our society and to see if there are this kind of "structures" that prevent us to express ourselves, but i stop here Just want to add a thing or 2, i don't consider the jedis assimilable to christian doctrine, jedi many times are kind and help the others, this is a noble purpose indeed but in my eyes make them not be automathically assimilable to christianism. and about the games that "must" not speak of important things and have just to be entertainment... even movies should be that, they where born as a curiosity and entertainment, but luckilly we had many people that tought it more as a form of communication and art. If most of the game sink in the ocean of banality and mediocrity trieng to be just x hours of entertainment then is their fault. I think we must only appreciate all the authors (not only game developers) that see every form of communication as a chance to express themselves, their feelings and their toughts, as an option to make the target of their communication to think and confront with another sensibility.

If i'm right the plan was to lure the mandalorean fleet near the planet and then to activate the generator to trap them in the gravity hole and make them crash on the planet. this is under the military aspect and it worked well because even with great casualities the mandalorean fleet was destroyed and the war won. there is also another goal in that battle. Revan needed to corrupt his troops so they will follow him against the republic and the true siths. s/he knew of the dark power of the academy (and probably of malachor itself) and he knew how to feed that power to relase a corruption unable to be sustained by anyone. So the deaths of the mandaloerans and republic soldiers/jedis on the planet are also meant to fuel that energy that will bring the final corruption to his/her own army.

i thought of that though it doesnt make sense why they'd land, get out, then shoot you down. it would make more sense to shoot you once you land in person or to shoot you with their ship. i dont want to argue about their technology but it doesnt seem possible to hide their energy usage. they said they werent making their own power but taking it from another location on the planet. and shielded areas are visably shielded from the corrosive atmoshphere. i think i even saw sheild structure there though i may be wrong. Why not, both tactics have pro and cons, maybe if they attacked the ship with their own they risked to totally destroy or that they where able to escape if they saw their ship on radar. they way they acted seemed quite good to me, they ambushed the Exile and shot down the ship, then they come to capture him (if alive) while uncounscious, problem is that the exile awake before they reached him. i believe he was saying suprise indirect attacks. kinda like that rocket to the ship as they were arriving but then they met them with blasters. they should not be so confident and attack head on if they see the jedi are noticibly injured. I was just pointing to that probably they had not many choices, they are equipped with blasters they know to use that weapon and nothing more effective for a jedi and they used it. you'd think his spirit would be crushed when he sees he cannot defeat anyone, even a bunch of non-jedi. still, i would prefer to just slice him in pieces and let him live out eternity in sealed containers. You don't know if you where able to crush his spirit in that moment, force can end, more siths can come to join the battle, maybe in the long time he had won. (and is why Kreia stop you) But the idea to let him live in sealed containers is funny

If you don't see their ship there it doesn't mean that they have not a ship near. That group of hk50s is not just a patrol who is there by luck. When you leave talos underground base some HK50 analyze the terminal discovering where you are going and they call for a group to intercept you in the polar area. I think is likelly that they are contacting another base on the planet or on the citadel, trasmitting your coords so they can arrive there before you (with their own ship) and shot you down. Bao-dur also tells that the area seem to be cloaked and hidden. ehm and what they should use? that model seem to have not meele capacity, they use what they are good to, also consider that at this point the Exile is considered a "half jedi" so not a powerful jedi master that reflect bolts force push like crazy and so on. about Sion, is his nature to not to die is the same on Korriban as on Malachor V, if ininfluential if you and your comrades hammer him.... you have to crush his will, not his body. Kreia and her powers... I really think that Kreia is holding back (even in the final fight), is ininfluential how you make her grow, shw have her own powers, is just not showing them to you during most of the game. She is also a bit different than a deus ex machina, she doesn't intervene (?) just to save the Exile when needed. Is Kreia to have the control, she put that tests in front of the Exile so he can face them and "grow up", she is a player of the game and most of the other characters/enemies seem to be just pawns on her deck.

I think that the point of view of the game is not a force perspective at all, i don't think they want to address a grey vision of the force, but a human vision of it. In my opinion most of the things that Kreia points too are these, she is trying to show you how a man to be complete have to draw from his inner strenght, on what he is. The example of the beggare is interesting for the vision it gives to consequences of actions and to some point even to the bad that can result from a kind action, this is a digression i agree, but i think that the central point storywise is another. Kreia is trying to demostrate that what a man gain from fate or kindess is not a real gain, i man to grow have to face his problem and his situation and should try in first person to face it and fight to resolve it. It could be a similar tought as the prince of Macchiavelli, what the fate gives the fate can take back so a man should rely on his own strenght to forge his luck. It could be quite a cinical tought, but is very appropriate for Kreia. You can apply also all of this with the force... (and it makes even more sense for the game perspective) In the game the force is presented as something usefull but also as an obstacle that prevent to men to develope themselves. Jedis use the force to see, to act, to understande, for them is no more a tool, but something that replace their judgment, their vision, their skill. They fill their weakness with it and for this reaon they are no more able to rely on themselves. Is like that someone that have his leg damaged, he have to do exercises to walk again but as he will rely on pegs (?) to walk, he will never walk again with his legs. The journey of the Exile is this, is to understand what he really is, probably is the player himself that have to understand that... is not the level gain important, is what he represent for others. As said in the other post, considering how important is the force in SW universe this is an antitetical point of view of the hero, what makes him great is not his power is that he is a man that fight with his own strenght. Probably is true what you say about that the Exile doesn't change too much, but actually he doesn't have to change, he have to understand his choices, to understand what he is but not to change. He changed on Malachor V when he chose to cut his bound with the force, in the beginning both the Exile and the player see this lack of force as a weakness, a jedi whitout the force is nothing, in the end he realize (or should do that) that the force is actually not so important and what do a Man. My gaming experiance was really like that so for my experience the plot was really successfull, as i said i think that it is really a difficult one, but even the things it speak about are quite difficult, expecially considering our prejudices. Then as you say a game have is limits, the cut endings have for sure not helped to make the story clearer and more compat, but i can't say anything about the story, is deep, complex and mature, for sure is difficult to understand and is not the kind of game you have to play as a normal game, but this makes it more worth in my opinion. We are surrounded by banality so i can only appreciate something that try to get out of mediocrity trying to make people even think a bit and not just to entertain them.

fixed

very nice post, i disagree on many things but still i consider it a very good post.... I alredy discussed it on another post, in the end i agree with Obsidian decision, the amnesia was alredy used in KOTOR1, to do it again was a sort or recalc the previous game... To say that the amnesia was needed in the game is like to say that is needed for every adventure game/rpg, in most of the games we have not access to the full background of our chars, but still we can play and impersonate the chracter as we like. Also i don't think that the Exile or that devs made some facts disappear from exile mind, is just that we know what happened during the game. Is also true that this game emphatized the interaction with other characters and the Exile is a complex character with a difficult past, i liked too to have some more info on his past, but with such knowledge then we will have more restrictions in the interpretation of out char.. Also there are on the official site some info about what happened before TSL, even if these info are not probably 100% correct and are not too near the char they can give to the player a general idea of what happened, or at least make him form his own ideas. I think too that these kind of vision can be nice to know the Exile past, but also consider that these kind of visions can be different considering the point of view of the char at that time. Is probable that a DS Exile who hate the council and the mandalorians and that actually liked the war for the feeling of power he had will have different remembrance of his past than a LS Exile that feels guilty for what happened and the lives he "cut". There are some infos about the battle on malachor on the chronicles, anyway is true that we don't know of this item and what really happened until we see the drone float around on Malachor. For this example i really think that probably something is missing and was probably cut away, (in my opinion was likelly that Bao Dur had some dialogue with the exile on the Ebon Hawk, before reaching Malachor V, and they planned to reactivate the DSG). Is not an excuse for a game fault, but still is a problem of a part cut from the story, not exactly of the story itself and the way it was tought. I must admit that in the beginning i was sceptical too for the lack of background, that for sure had helped me to plan how to play my char and gave more stability to the story. As said thinking again about it, i considered that such notions had restricted my game experience or the one of another player with different vision than mine. Also i must say that generally i had not much troubles building my past during the game, my choices, even the ones i haven't chose, and the dialogues gave me a lot of hints about what happened during the war and how the char acted, giving me also the ability to influence his past as i like him. You must also consider that the Exile was in this state before he met Kreia, is quite clear that in the last years he tried to live in isolation running away from himself or the world. For my Exile is mostly a necessity, at least at the beginning, to stick with Kreia and other comrades to face the dangers i have to face and the sith menace. (also a DS jedi can see them just as tool to gain his power back for example) I think your idea is really a good one and for sure have a lot of potential, also you picture Atton very differenctly on what is in the game. I think they are just 2 different chars, in the ingame Atton i see mostly a tormented, desperate soul, that feel guilty for what he have done. If in the beginning he have to join you to flee from Peragus i think that then he become attached to the Exile (expecially if is a female one ) and consider him as a friend that suffered a fate similar to his own. Is also quite probable that his feeling make him see the Exile as a chance of repair to what he have done, maybe just to try to feel better with himself. My english is crappy and i can't really tell what i think, anyway i haven't found Atton behavior as unreal or forced, i think that his past and his psychology can give a strong motivation for his actions. If i remember right the jedi on Nar Shadda asked to Mira to protect the Exile, also consider that Mira can become an apprentice almost in the first dialogue, actually the first time you meet. I agree that her motivation are not so strong, but if she become an apprentice here that things change, Mira is probably the char that have more need to become your apprentice, she feels incomplete and vulnerable and when you show her the force is her that actually ask you to let her join and become your disciple. can't say about Harrar... i like too much mira to have used him s far Handmaiden join you because Atris ask her to do that, she is on a mission for her mistress. the Disciple is a spy of the republic, that monitor your actions. Here i disagree completelly when i first ended the game i was fully sathisfated, emotionally and mentally. The emotions where so strong that where the same i have when i watch a masterpiece movie (probably last time was Magnolia so a quite some years ago) or some awesome book from C.S. Lewis. Ok i'm exagerating now, but was just to say that i was really amazed by the game, not that i just enjoyed it and it entertained me. The Human centrality is simply genial, expecially considering that we are in a game of "super heroes", in a world that if you have not some connection with the force you are nothing.... (look at Han Solo, he "become" a powerfull force sensitive in EU to give him a sort of nobility) The story of a man that is great for what he is and not for is power is a great message, and a thing that our society seem to forget most of the time. Then is the story difficult? yes i think mostly because is based on a thing that most people don't consider, and is the anthitesys of a game. I see that most of the confusion is generally caused that the perception that nothing happened, many player try to see all the story in a "normal" power point of vision. They expect that the Exile will become the most powerfull behing in the galaxy, that he have to save or to conquer it with the force and his sabre, fighting some uber villain... With this vision is quite logical that is difficult to see what is happening, what is moving the characters and the true vaule of the Exile, in a power perspective a choice, a freedom choice, the inner strenght of a Man are nothing, are probably weakness and so very difficult to understand. Now better to stop that my english is very crappy and my digressions are becoming way too confused and probably very boring too:P Just to say again that i really enjoyed the story i was fully satisfied by it to the point that i'm telling to my friends to try the game. sorry again for the confusion and bad english.