
Zilod
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What the Jedi masters hoped to accomplish
Zilod replied to hawk's topic in Star Wars: General Discussion
Actually the Exile is an hole in the force, is what makes him a Man, he is probably as "dead" as Nihilus but we agree they are different, if one is a free man the other is totally enslaved by the force and can't satisfy his hunger. There i strongly disagree, in my opinion is more likelly that the real siths counted on a Revan, or anyway that some jedis where changed by the war. If i remember right is Kreia that speak about that on dantooine, as the jedi fought the mandalorian wars they become more and more "obsessed" by the war itself, they started to hate weakness as the sith do, and in the end they died or turned to be siths. I think this was the plan, they are forcing jedis to partecipate in the war, so they can be corrupted and will turn against their old friend, weaking the order itself, this had happened even if all jedis partecipated the war, not just with dissidents. Considering that probably the best decision is the one of the council, to await and see if the republic have the strenght to face this danger, whitout going too much OT consider all the discussions about the republic stagnant and unchecked. Note that i'm not blaming Revan and other jedis, maybe the jedi where not strong enought to face the true siths, but with what they have done and what happened after that have made the game of the real enemies. Mostly i agree, but i think they also considered the Exile as a threat, a real threat that can possibly destroy all the order forcing them to leave the force. He is also a paradox to what they are, a thing they can't really understand. I think is a bit to easy to tell that Revan's plan failed because Malak betrayed him, is Revan that forged Malak, was Revan's decision to turn his soldiers (his apprentice included) to the dark side so they had followed him. Is his fault if things went that way not Malak one. for the other things i mostly agree with your vision, just wanted to point to a thing or two, i think that the jedis where not so fool in their decisions, i can understand their reason and probably the choice to await to enter in the war was not so blind or fool. I'm not saying that their decision was good and Revan bad, i think both of them made a choice they tought necessary and both of them where probably fooled. -
What the Jedi masters hoped to accomplish
Zilod replied to hawk's topic in Star Wars: General Discussion
i remove the spoiler as it is the spoiler forum eheh the exile is not Nihilus, he was never drained he recided his link witht he force, whitout suffer a drain is not possible to aquire that technique. -
What the Jedi masters hoped to accomplish
Zilod replied to hawk's topic in Star Wars: General Discussion
mmm i don't think she is in lead of the council, she was just a young master and also instead to see more "hate" than autority in her words. Even other masters are aware of that sometimes and they tell her to calm down. The other masters tell her that they are not judging Revan, to not blame other masters for Revan and other apprentices fall, to pay attention to her emotions. If i have to chose a leader of that council (if there is any) i think i'l goo with Vrook or the Oderon one, but i have not notice a figure above the others. again i strongly disagree, if you look again at the movie is very clear that is not for this reason, even at the end (if i remember right) they say something that if the exile will not return he will never know why they banished him. They can exile him for fear, for ignorance, but also for the convinvtion to do the right thing, to protect the code they belived. This is not an evil act by itself, we can say that is ignorance we can say they are wrong because we know the story, but for them? Probably they tought to do the best thing both for the jedis and the exile. the code is a human construction to sign a path, is not the LS itself, for example Luke is attached by his friends and chose to go to rescue them even if Yoda told him to do not that... a jedi that followed the code probably had chosen to do as Yoda suggested... is Luke DS? Also i don't see in their action an infraction to the code, they exile what they think is a potential danger for all the jedi, i can't blame them for that. We say that but we see the story from Revan perspective, we really don't know what had happened if jedis haven't joined the war. The council was right to show prudence to join the war, they understood that there was something else, way more dangerous behind that, a thing that many jedis that joined the war had not understood... also probably Revan will save the galaxy from the real sith menace, but for now he was quite a disaster. The republic is almost destroyed, with planets that think to leave it (Onderon and Dantooine for example), there are almost no more jedis (and siths), actually the people hate the jedis. It doesn't seem to me the best situation to face an enemy. If i have to chose between this situation and the ones before the mandalorean wars i think i will go with the second one.... It seem to me that Revan was manipulated by the force to achives her owhn goals, as probably will say Kreia, all his plains failed and he had no other choices than to go to fight the real enemies by himself. -
Is not a bug is just that is very easy to max influence with her and when that happen she mimic your "force status" (it happen for every chars)
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I don't think too that Revan was in the academy, i think is more likelly that he was simply on his ship controlling/leading the battle, but was just far enought from the exile to not suffer a drain. He have no need to stay in the academy and to risk his life nor to be so exposed to the DS energies during the battle, also the academy is not the ideal place to lead his fleet, his flagship is for sure much better. Most of the info here exposed are in the game at various points, you know something from HK, Kreia and other npcs, then is up to you to put pieces togather and to build an idea of what happened. Also Revan knew about the academy even before the battle
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The plan was to lure Mandalorians near the planet and then to activate the gravity weel to make them crash on it. Is natural that some jedi ships where too near the planet too, but what killed the jedi was not that, but the curruption energy of malachor. When the academy on malachor (and malachor itself) where feeded with the deaths of mandalorians and republic soldiers, it began to irradiate a corruption energy all around it, most of the jedis succumbed to this energy turning to DS and the one that where strong enought to resist simply died because of it. My opinion is that only the ones directly linked to the Exile and able to survive become echoes, is likelly that the Exile was in the "first line" where the casualities where alredy very high, probably when the hole was formed the ones near him died due to the force that was drained from them but Sion and Nihilus where able to survive for some reason. I think that Revan and Malak where not so near the battle or at least nor near and "linked" to the exile. I'm inclined to think that he knew about the academy and actually it was used even after the war to train the force sensitive assassins (I think Atton is referring to it when he tells his story and that some assassins disappeared to being sent in some dark places to "complete" their training) Also i suppose that Kreia was alredy there, so Malak had to stay far away from that place if he wanted to stay alive. I think so, at that time probably there where not yet strong as they are now and also i think Kreia was in lead of the academy and wanted to keep a low profile to fulfill her plans. No the Rakatan ships are the one "curved", you can see some when Nihilus attack Telos, while his ship (who looks like a ISD) was probably a republic design.
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Kreia Levelling / The final duel
Zilod replied to Hannigaholic's topic in Star Wars: General Discussion
Until she open the fight landing a kill on you before you can even put up force immunity. happened just 1 time but, ewwww, no way to defend and to do anything. -
Yes i think that too, i tried to justify it just because she felt that even the sith code was not sufficent to give her the knowledge she was looking for. For sure when she meet the Exile she is no more sith and nor a jedi, even to say that she is neutral is reductive, i see her as enlighted, she learnt the nature of the force by the confrontation of the 2 opposite. Speaking about revan i think he is a bit more, he is described as the heart of the force, an interesting term. It show both the Revan centrality and freedom from code, but also it give the idea that he is the essence of the force. So not only that he is free from both codes, that are probably just a human construction, but that he embrace the force as a whole unitary thing. (it will be very nice to see in KOTOR3 the conflict between Revan and the Exile) Interesting comparsion, i 100% agree, the Exile path is one of enlightment that is achieved experiencing the conflicts. Even what the exile should become fit well in that, he actually will be an example or even better a source of conflicts for the ones around him. Mostly agree, but i don't think this "betrayal" is always pictured as a positive process. Look at Bao Dur, Atris and probably even at Atton, they betrayed themselves but that lead to their self destruction, so i will prefer to consider it as the betrayal of their bounds rather than of themselves. The exile betrayed an ideology that was constricting his human nature, while Bao Dur probably betrayed his nature itself. Is also true that you are mostly referring to the learnings and the artificial structures of a man, but i think is necessary to make clear that this is different than to betray our own nature itself. This way the positive betrayal, the one that gives hope (as Kreia say), is a process of freedom that is committed against our artificial bounds that prevent us to express our full potential as Men.
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What the Jedi masters hoped to accomplish
Zilod replied to hawk's topic in Star Wars: General Discussion
Where they say that? Ig he gave up to DS he was with Revan and never chose to "answer" to council call. Ignorance play a big role here, they can't heal what they can't understand and they can't understand what they can't see (or feel anymore). They think that is just necessary... but this is not a sign of DS and i think too that master Vandar was not of same opinion, he never gave the impression to have "lost" his humanity ehm frogity ano to be totally blinded by the force. -
What the Jedi masters hoped to accomplish
Zilod replied to hawk's topic in Star Wars: General Discussion
In the holo and also in the game is quite clear that the Exile was not exiled because he followed Revan or because he fought on Malachor V committing terrible things... The Exile probably alredy judge himself guilty, but this is another history The council cast the exile away for what he become and for the danger they saw in him. In the holo you discover that there is something else, and speaking about it with varius masters it become more and more clear that was not your partecipation in the war the reson. The biker jedi master in particular (if i remember right) seem to feel quite guilty for that decision, and Vosh(?) (the female master of Korriban) seemed to not agree with the decision the council made. (sad that she died as i think she said to the exile some very interesting thing... maybe she died for that reason?) -
I hope to have understood it right this time, but still don't agree too much. Probably because i don't see the Exile as a powerfull jedi. In my opinion if the Exile become a sith probably he where killed in KOTOR1 as one of the nameless siths that face Revan. Also we don't know if the Exile really had to fall to DS, is also likelly that he was able to resist, resulting in his death on malachor. Sion and Nihilus seem a bit excessive to me to be just a reaction to his "lost force", i can agree to see them as a reaction to his threacery as you call him, so not to "balance" what it was and could have be, but to balance his act and what he become. Also as said i have problems to define the sith lords as that, in the force perspective or a global one we can see them like that, but i don't think is what they really are.
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What the Jedi masters hoped to accomplish
Zilod replied to hawk's topic in Star Wars: General Discussion
Probably was not too clear when i citated the "fallen to light side", i spoke mostly of the attachment of jedis/siths with the force and probably reduced the "lack of humanity" that is it's defining factor. Just want to say that when i spoke about it had this vision in mind and the reference to the inability to cut their bounds is just a consequence of it. -
We are not all the same, what a guy may like another dislike... For me the game is good, for you is not for me the story is consistant and Kreia is an awesome char for you not. as said people is different and don't like or receive things in the same manner. This is meant to discuss about a particular char of the game... and i'm gladly to not be alone and to see that there are other people that enjoyed the game as i've done. I like to confrontate my theories and vision with them to try to know the game and it's chars even better. What we are not doing for sure is to rate the game, there are alredy a lot of posts, magazines and other sites that do it.
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I don't think Kreia drained the exile, the exile is a hole in the force and can't be drained with that power (as darth Nihilus will discover later), also is Kreia that makes the Exile feel the force, she says it both at the beginning (something like i can make you feel the force again trought me) and in the end (was a mistake to make you feel the force again). I also don't agree that the Exile is a weapon against the true sith... the Exile is much more in the first instance, is a way of life and an example to others. In the end Kreia herself gives to the exile 3 choices and is Obsidian ehm the Exile that chose to go to help Revan. About the past i'm more inclined to think that Kreia was aware of T3, the droid went back from the unknow space with the Ebon Hawk, probably to find someone to help Revan. We can say that is T3 who own the ebon hawk, so i really don't think that Kreia was not aware of it. My supposition here is that T3 knew about Kreia and searched for her.
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I don't agree with the idea that the Exile have become Nihilus if he didn't cut the link with the force. I'm more inclined to think that we had not a Nihilus if the exile didn't that, probably the Exile had just turned to DS due to the corruption of Malachor, or died to not be able to resist to it. At dantooine enclave Kreia clearly say that was the Exile to create the sith lords, in particular she tells to the Exile that his gift to to the galaxy was the destruction (referring to Nihilus and the other lords) and that they learnt their power, their techinque, from you. I'm more inclined to think that when the exile cut his bounds and the hole was formed the "essence" of the ones linked with him was drained in some way, and the ones that survived learnt this technique. It could also be that the hole is malachor itself and that he drain the life from the one above it, but there are some things that make this theory more difficult to apply. I found very interesting the vision of Nihilus as a balancing force, i don't think is what he really is, but is also what he is doing... considering that the force shape the destiny of the livings, expecially of one like Nihilus, this vision fit very well.
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What the Jedi masters hoped to accomplish
Zilod replied to hawk's topic in Star Wars: General Discussion
Motivating their attitude with the Exile saying "they are DS" is just like saying that they want to destroy the Exile just because they are evil and you are good. You are reducing what the exile is to "just a good guy" In my opinion this good vs evil is almost inexistant in this game, all is about what the Exile his and his path of enlightment. Also consider how they act against the Exile, they don't try to kill him, they express their doubt and for them their action is just needed, look and how Kreia act with them, they are just kids for her, kids that can't understand. Now look how Kreia act with Atris, and how Atris act with the exile, the difference is quite clear. I found the term "felt to light side" very nice, and is what probably happens, all the jedi or sith we meet in the game (and probably all the ones we know) are too attached to the force to the point that they will die instead of recide their bounds (probably what happened on Malachor), so here their fear and ignorance for the paradox of the exile, both if they are LS or DS. The exile is a therat not just to the DS but to all the force. -
What the Jedi masters hoped to accomplish
Zilod replied to hawk's topic in Star Wars: General Discussion
They are afraid by the exile and blind by the force. They can't understand a live whitout the force and can't understand what the Exile really is, they see him as a hole in the force, as the death of the force as many times is said, i think they fear to follow his example (or to be forced to do that by his links) and they can't see a life whitout the force (as they say a man whitout the force is blinded, incomplete and so on). I really don't hink they are DS, is just their ignorance and their fear or a sort of "survival instinct" that make them act that way. about their original plan They hided on various planets to await to enemies to show up, most of the jedi where "misteriously" killed, they know that if they will stay togather they will be an easy prey so their plain is to divide. Also the Exile was used by Atris to try to set a "trap" for the siths. -
No is not what is happening... Kreia is teaching him the force, she can sense the force, same Sion, or Visas, all the apprentices, even the council is sensing the force, they just can't sense the force in him (he is an hole)... they also use the force to try to cut again his bounds.
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The Optimistic Discussion
Zilod replied to The Great Phantom's topic in Star Wars: General Discussion
Hehe i talked enought about Kreia in other 3D, here i just say that i agree with what you say Visas... I think she is really interesting char too, for what she is... she seem to be a "sister in destiny" of the Exile, she understand him and probably have a better understanding of the force too. I loved to know more about her past, but also more confrontation with her about the force and what we really are. -
I'm not saying that the Exile created Malachor V because the weapon, but because his choice. When i say he created Malachor V i'm referring to the hole in the force that was created there, echoes (sith lords) included. Revan wanted a weapon of corruption, the hole, the Exile was accidental. No i'm saying that is not what made him important, he is not important because he can feel the force (feel it outside him, no more inside) The force can't die, as she say on dantooine for every jedi fallen another will raise... is just a matter of time. The force can't be killed but can be "refused", as the Exile have done in his past, if other people, other jedi will understand that they will follor the Exile path and free themself from the force. I think this is the fear of the council, to follow the exile to the point to recide their bound with the force, and for them the force is everything, they simply can't think to do that.
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I mostly agree with what you say, but i don't think that is really Kreia that created Nihilus. Consider that the technique Nihilus have mastered can't be taught and can be learnt only by the instinct and suffering the effects. Also Kreia tells to the Exile that was him to teach to the siths to estabilish links to drain force, for this reason i'm more inclined to see the Exile as the Nihilus creator directly (probably draining him in some way) or indirectly by Malachor V (even if in this case even the sith from KOTOR1 should have this technique, as most of them where converted at Malachor).
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mmm i don't agree too much but let's go on eheh Is Revan that join Bastila after he was captured, also consider that the Exile was a so and so jedi at that time, yes many jedis followed Revan in the war, but probably many promising students (like Bastila) followed the council will. Is Kreia that is questioned, also they are still jedi not sith, i really don't think they will exile someone because she tell them that they have failed as teacher, consider also that Kreia have not done a better job with Revan as he was the leader of dissident jedis. I think Revan wanted Malachor 5 to "corrupt" his troops, but what happened there i think was not intented, i'm more inclined to consider the Exile as the creator of Malachor V or at least of what we consider it in this thread. Kreia tells that she really doesn't wanted the council dead, she want to avenge but to kill them, i think that if they had understood what the Exile was she had spared their life. Kreia doesn't want balance, she says it in her final dialogue, he is not a sort of chosen like Anakin, he made his choice and that made him different. As said in other post i see him more as an example of a life whitout the force more than a powerfull force user like Revan I even don't agree too much about "to fulfill her wishes" I think that Kreia manipulated him to a degree, but also everything she have done was for him. She makes him kill her ancient enemies and expecially darth Nihilus who is a threat for the galaxy, but these enemies where also Exile's ones All the things that she do is for the benefits of the exile, to make him grow up and understand what he represent. As i see it the choice was alredy done, No no, the Exile is an hole in the force and he chose to be that, after his process of th enlightment he demonstrate that is it possible to be complete as a man, even whitout the force to sustain him. for Visas you must consider that probably they share the same destiny, they are both "dead" from the force and, expecially at the beginning, they both feel to be "gimped". Kreia at the end gives to the exile 3 choices, she hopes that he will help Revan, but is the Exile choice (if i where the Exile i chose to follow Visas path , but it seem that he is not too immune to the force(obsidian) will ) yes we have a new beginning and Exile apprendices will be the new jedi (siths?), but they will have not anyway the "ultimate knowledge" of the force. For Kreia the fact to be a jedi or a sith is a sign of enslavement and weakness, a Jedi or a Sith will probably never understand what the force is and will be always under his influence. I think that Kreia consider a weakness what a jedi consider strenght and vice versa, a man whitout the force have to fight and live with his own strenght, while one witht he force is dependant from it.
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Kreia's actress is simply awesome, not only her voice is very clear and fit well the char, but her acting is also very intense and make the char really live. other actors are good too, but in my opinion Kreia is simply above them. I really liked the voice of Bao Dur, calm and expressive and Visas, sad but sensual.
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If you don't give them more lines, more things to say, they can't talk more... Take the game exactly as it is now, if you put only 4 chars on the hawk they will not talk more, they will say exactly the same things they say now (actually there will be less shortcuts on the ship). This is because they have a fixed number of things they can say, a fixed number of lines... To make them to talk more (and to say interesting things) you have to give them more lines, the only way to do that is to put more time in their creation, with a longer development or to make a pool with less characters.... If they have saved the time and the effort to make, Mira, Visas, Goto, the Handmaiden, the disciple and mandalore they where able to put more time and energies in the other chars like Bao Dur or Atton or the few ones that remain... I know is not what you are suggesting, and for sure i don't like it too. look it as an equation.. character complexity = time invested/number of characters (time invested is the total time invested to do all the characters in the pool)
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It will not make them deeper or more talkative if the pool is bigger, probably will end like the opposite with less interaction with npcs.... let me try to do a pratical example there have 200 lines of dialogues for npcs we have 4 npcs on the hawk we can chose from a pool of 20 chars it will be not that these 4 chars will have 50 lines of dialogue each because you can chose from every char of the pool, maybe player A will chose npc 1.2.3.4 while player B 5.6.7.8 and so on so even if for a single game you will use just 4 characters the lines have to be distribuited among all 20 characters of the pool this will end up have 10 lines of dialogue each. this is the "value" you will have even if you will take all 20 chars on the hawk.. every chars will have 10 lines each. i think is quite clear that to have 4 chars aboard makes not them more complex, is the pool that matter, as said the interaction will be even less because with 4 chars you will ear 40 lines of dialogues at best during a game, while with 10 you will ear 100 lines. The npcs can be more complex if you have only 4 npcs to chose from in all the game, in this way yes you will have every npc with 50 lines. (Also for the reasons i said in the other post this is not a good idea in my opinion.)