The All Things Political Topic - Those who do not move, do not notice their chains

[BruceVC]

10 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

We live on the NJsame street a few houses apart. Shes one of my garage drinking buddies.

 Nice, you have mentioned those social events. It sounds fun and easy to meetup. How  often do you guys meetup ?I go out to the local bars about 1-2 times a week but I have  only started going out again 

[Gfted1]

Pretty often but mostly in the warmer months. One guy puts on a block party with a pig roast every year, another one celebrates the 4th of July with what I can only assume are illegally imported fireworks, another guys garage was converted into a pretty decent bar. Usually though its just a couple of us sitting around drinking, talking and listening to music. And I have an easy commute home.

[Zoraptor]

2 hours ago, Gorth said:

..(ISIS in particular didn't like them at all and claimed the fist kills of AJ journalists and the Taliban too has declared them Persona non Grata in Afghanistan)..

While ISIS certainly doesn't like them Taliban and Qatar/ AJ are best buds*. One of the more funny accusations made against Qatar in the western press as part of the publicity campaign for the planned Saudi invasion** was that they were supporting the Taliban as the Taliban had an embassy there. The funny thing being that the US asked Qatar to set that embassy up, in order to have somewhere/ someone to hold the ongoing negotiations that eventually became the agreement Trump made with them and led to the US withdrawal of last year.

*some may have seen former AJ journalist Charlotte Bellis running publicity for the Taliban lately using the contacts she developed at AJ. Pretty funny watching an organised disinformation campaign as the target of it rather than from the outside.

**seriously, the whole idea was to take over Qatar's massive gas fields. Qatar has a tiny population of actual Qataris, like the Emirates most people there aren't Qatari. Someone had to point out to Trump that the largest US base in the ME was there, including CENTCOM's forward command centre.

[Raithe]

For a sideline of historical politics

Telegraph - Icon of American West risks being cancelled after damning lost map emerges

William Clark was a true icon of the American West, known to generations of schoolchildren for his 1803-06 expedition from St Louis to the Pacific, alongside Meriwether Lewis, to document the vast tracts of land newly purchased from France.

Now, the discovery of a previously lost map by a Cambridge professor threatens to destroy that heroic image by proving that Clark fraudulently dispossessed Native Americans of lands the size of Switzerland, potentially making him a clear target for “cancellation”.
Dr Robert Lee, who found the map, hopes instead that Clark’s fame can be used to teach the world about a grim but oft-forgotten period of American history.
“I think we have to think about Clark more,” Dr Lee told The Telegraph. “What I hope people take away from it is that this is not exceptional. We don't know the full story about how the process of dispossessing indigenous nations and recreating their land as US real estate really functioned."

While Clark owed his celebrity to the three-year Lewis and Clark expedition, he subsequently spent decades working as an Indian agent for the federal government, overseeing dozens of treaties in which Native American land was transferred to the United States and, therefore, to white settlers.

The map, hand-drawn by Clark himself in 1816, falsely included 10.5 million acres of indigenous land as having been ceded to the United States in 1808. Clark portrayed it as a correction of the record when, in reality, says Dr Lee, he was knowingly helping a community of white squatters to steal Native American territory.
The United States had recently concluded a peace treaty, the Treaty of Ghent, with Great Britain following the War of 1812, which included a provision that borders with indigenous tribes return to the situation as it existed before the war.
Ambiguity surrounding the wording of an 1808 treaty with the Osage people allowed Clark to include land north of the Missouri River in his map of existing American territory.

Clark’s motivation for such a move was threefold, said Dr Lee. He wanted revenge on the Native Americans for fighting alongside the British, payback for the American squatters they had attacked, and a desire for land that he had previously tried to buy.

“There's a level of what looks like vindictiveness towards, particularly, the Sauk who are allied primarily with the British during the war,” said Dr Lee, adding “it seems to be a combination of coveting this land, payback and, trying to help out the squatters who are moving in, to look out for their interests as sort of remuneration for their losses during the war.”

****

[Hurlshort]

I don't really understand the tone of that article. I don't know any history teachers that teach about historical figures as some sort angelic icons. They are interesting because they kept fantastic notes and maps on their epic journey, and that makes it easy for us to study and look back on. Their character isn't the reason we study them. I mean, it makes for a good critical thinking question to compare their character to others of their time. But, just like Columbus, the idea that we 'cancel' bad characters in history is silly. History is simple cause and effect. Morality arguments are a different subject.

[Gorth]

3 hours ago, Hurlsnot said:

I don't really understand the tone of that article. I don't know any history teachers that teach about historical figures as some sort angelic icons. They are interesting because they kept fantastic notes and maps on their epic journey, and that makes it easy for us to study and look back on. Their character isn't the reason we study them. I mean, it makes for a good critical thinking question to compare their character to others of their time. But, just like Columbus, the idea that we 'cancel' bad characters in history is silly. History is simple cause and effect. Morality arguments are a different subject.

Maybe people outside the US are a bit bemused by the *perceived* hero worship, which sometimes takes place in the US (emphasis on the 'perceived' part)?

 

[BruceVC]

13 hours ago, Hurlsnot said:

I don't really understand the tone of that article. I don't know any history teachers that teach about historical figures as some sort angelic icons. They are interesting because they kept fantastic notes and maps on their epic journey, and that makes it easy for us to study and look back on. Their character isn't the reason we study them. I mean, it makes for a good critical thinking question to compare their character to others of their time. But, just like Columbus, the idea that we 'cancel' bad characters in history is silly. History is simple cause and effect. Morality arguments are a different subject.

Yes but Lewis and Clark are considered iconic in the history of the US, they not angelic but significant. Their is a whole tourism aspect where people follow the original Lewis and Clark trail in the USA. I have seen this several times on cooking shows like Bizarre Food America, so we wouldn't want to malign them unnecessarily

https://www.travelchannel.com/shows/bizarre-foods/episodes/lewis-and-clark-trail

[Darkpriest]

Does anyone, maybe @Hurlshot, know more about such a topic?

Feels a bit overblown in terms of narration, but i wonder if some of the facts check out and how common would such a thing potentially be in other areas of US. 

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/teacher-made-white-elementary-school-children-apologize-black-kids-their-skin-color

 

[Chairchucker]

On 2/5/2022 at 11:54 PM, BruceVC said:

When you say you agree you come from white, male privlidege how would you define that personally and how has it changed your views if at all ?

And is this  a general view your friends and family agree with you on?

Ugh I posted a big thing and it disappeared.

How I'd define it personally is that it's the 'default'. By that I mean, it doesn't manifest itself by people going 'oh heck yeah you're a straight white guy here's some free stuff for you or whatever', it manifests in a lack of oppression that other people get. Women are way more likely to get sexually harassed, assaulted, or passed over for jobs. For many jobs, there's an unconscious bias against women for a couple reasons, which mostly boil down to 'the people doing the hiring are overwhelmingly older men, and even though they are not allowed to officially have gender based hiring practices, they instinctively think of men as more suited to certain roles.' (The inverse is also true for certain roles, it's just that nurse, cleaner and teacher don't pay as well as doctor, engineer or scientist.)

I'm less likely to have political parties run on a platform that people of my ethnicity or religious background shouldn't come to this country. I'm less likely to have people pass me over for jobs because 'my accent is difficult'. I'm less likely to be killed in custody. Because of how generational wealth works, I was statistically more likely to be born into the fairly well off middle class situation I found myself in.

Also, because I'm straight and CIS, there hasn't historically been legislation that supported the view that I was a mentally ill deviant who should be executed, (death penalty for sodomy removed in Victoria in 1949) or at least imprisoned, (sodomy decriminalised in Tasmania in 1997) or at the very least, that if if I hit on someone, that they could use that as a legal defence against murdering me. (Gay panic defence struck down in South Australia in 2020.) Also, there's not been any schools trying to get parents to sign contracts that state if their children come out as straight they can have their enrolment cancelled, but a school sure tried to do that contract about LGBT students about a week ago.

As to friends and family, it varies. Anecdotally, I tend to get on better with those who acknowledge it is a thing, but I think that's in part because there tends to be some compelling Venn diagrams regarding those views and the willingness to ignore science around climate change or vaccines, or support Trump as president, or say that suggesting we stop marginalising people is 'political correctness gone mad'.

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Chairchucker said:

Ugh I posted a big thing and it disappeared.

How I'd define it personally is that it's the 'default'. By that I mean, it doesn't manifest itself by people going 'oh heck yeah you're a straight white guy here's some free stuff for you or whatever', it manifests in a lack of oppression that other people get. Women are way more likely to get sexually harassed, assaulted, or passed over for jobs. For many jobs, there's an unconscious bias against women for a couple reasons, which mostly boil down to 'the people doing the hiring are overwhelmingly older men, and even though they are not allowed to officially have gender based hiring practices, they instinctively think of men as more suited to certain roles.' (The inverse is also true for certain roles, it's just that nurse, cleaner and teacher don't pay as well as doctor, engineer or scientist.)

I'm less likely to have political parties run on a platform that people of my ethnicity or religious background shouldn't come to this country. I'm less likely to have people pass me over for jobs because 'my accent is difficult'. I'm less likely to be killed in custody. Because of how generational wealth works, I was statistically more likely to be born into the fairly well off middle class situation I found myself in.

Also, because I'm straight and CIS, there hasn't historically been legislation that supported the view that I was a mentally ill deviant who should be executed, (death penalty for sodomy removed in Victoria in 1949) or at least imprisoned, (sodomy decriminalised in Tasmania in 1997) or at the very least, that if if I hit on someone, that they could use that as a legal defence against murdering me. (Gay panic defence struck down in South Australia in 2020.) Also, there's not been any schools trying to get parents to sign contracts that state if their children come out as straight they can have their enrolment cancelled, but a school sure tried to do that contract about LGBT students about a week ago.

As to friends and family, it varies. Anecdotally, I tend to get on better with those who acknowledge it is a thing, but I think that's in part because there tends to be some compelling Venn diagrams regarding those views and the willingness to ignore science around climate change or vaccines, or support Trump as president, or say that suggesting we stop marginalising people is 'political correctness gone mad'.

i  have also created long posts and  then they can vanish....its very annoying and I often dont recreate them, I sometimes just copy long posts in stages to Notepad or Word as a backup

Thanks for sharing, I understand what you saying 

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, Darkpriest said:

Does anyone, maybe @Hurlshot, know more about such a topic?

Feels a bit overblown in terms of narration, but i wonder if some of the facts check out and how common would such a thing potentially be in other areas of US. 

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/teacher-made-white-elementary-school-children-apologize-black-kids-their-skin-color

 

I sincerely hope that story isnt true. If it is true  I hope that teacher is fired for abuse of their position. There may even be criminal charges?

Its like the ultimate worse example of CRT if it was allowed to be taught 

Im sure @Hurlshot will comment?

 

[Hurlshort]

2 hours ago, Darkpriest said:

Does anyone, maybe @Hurlshot, know more about such a topic?

Feels a bit overblown in terms of narration, but i wonder if some of the facts check out and how common would such a thing potentially be in other areas of US. 

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/teacher-made-white-elementary-school-children-apologize-black-kids-their-skin-color

 

The facts do not check out.

[Darkpriest]

8 minutes ago, Hurlsnot said:

The facts do not check out.

So the claims by the parents are not accurate and defamatory? 

 

Or the claims quoted in the article did not take place? 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Darkpriest

[Hurlshort]

Just now, Darkpriest said:

So the claims by the parents are not accurate and defamatory? 

The school board denies it and there is no statements from adminstrators, teachers, students, etc. It is bad journalism. 

[Darkpriest]

14 minutes ago, Hurlsnot said:

The school board denies it and there is no statements from adminstrators, teachers, students, etc. It is bad journalism. 

The article mentioned that the board denied it, so in your opinion, the clips and parents reactions do not have a basis in facts? So the school could take them to court for defamation? 

[Hurlshort]

Are schools going to start suing parents for being stupid? Probably not, I don't think there are enough lawyers to handle such a case load.

Here is a real newspaper story, if you are interested: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/10/15/false-gop-claim-that-doj-is-spying-parents-school-board-meetings/

[Malcador]

I love it when US politician find Canada on a map again, first Ted Cruz (at least he recalls the land of his birth) and now - https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2022/2/2/2078229/-Chip-Roy-demands-we-deport-the-Canadian-leader-who-is-in-Canada-based-on-a-conspiracy-post

 

[majestic]

 

[Malcador]

For most Americans I expect it'd be

[Gromnir]

3 hours ago, Malcador said:

I love it when US politician find Canada on a map again, first Ted Cruz (at least he recalls the land of his birth) and now - https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2022/2/2/2078229/-Chip-Roy-demands-we-deport-the-Canadian-leader-who-is-in-Canada-based-on-a-conspiracy-post

 

until recent we wondered if guys such as chip roy believed the conspiracy lunacy they were spreading or if they mere exploiting a weakness in the base. answer: am thinking it don't matter. cruz is smart even if he does dumb things.  ron johnson may be as dumb as he seems.  paul gosar may genuine believe his conspiracy crazy. is the differences 'tween the three meaningful if they is all speaking to and encouraging the same elements o' the base?

Congress, particular the House, has always had its fair share o' idiots, nuts and skeevy hypocrites willing to exploit their constituencies. what is peculiar today is that the republican party has mainstreamed nativism, grievance and conspiratorial nonsense, which was a problem for the party back in the early 20th century. in 2010 we didn't expect such a resurgence o' early 20th century evils w/o a war. even the fallout franchise required what amounted to apocalypse to bring about similar kinda stoopid.

...

what is embarrassing is this political and social regression happened so easy and in plain view. 

HA! Good Fun!

[Raithe]

On another tangent of background things:

BBC - Jimmy Carr: Pressure grows over comedy routine but what do the fans think?

On Sunday, comedian Jimmy Carr told an audience in Manchester that it might be his last tour, after the controversy around comments he made about the Holocaust in his Netflix special, His Dark Material.

Carr is under fire for joking that "nobody talks about the positives" in reference to the Nazi murders of hundreds of thousands of people from the Roma, Sinti and traveller communities.

On Monday, the prime minister's official spokesman said it was "unacceptable to make light of genocide", adding that the government will be "making sure the streaming services are more accountable".

The Traveller Movement charity is also drafting a complaint to Netflix demanding it remove that section from the programme, the BBC understands.

Netflix have not yet commented on the furore, but many of his fans have defended him. Some argue that, even while they may not defend the joke, they defend his right to tell it.
Nikki Eastwood, who is 29 and from Manchester, went to the stand-up's live show on Sunday and told the BBC: "He said 'This might be my last tour because I'm getting cancelled', or something like that. People laughed."

So, can a comedian deliberately end their career with an offensive joke? That's almost the starting point for Jimmy Carr in His Dark Material.

He begins with a trigger warning, telling the audience "tonight's show contains jokes about terrible things", explaining that "these are just jokes, not the terrible things".

Carr continues an hour-long routine that riffs on, amongst other controversial topics, paedophiles, ugly women, rape, disability and veganism. All vintage Carr. While his fans adore his near-the-knuckle humour, others would find many of these jokes offensive.

Five minutes before the end of the show, he turns to a subject he says "should be a career ender". Carr then proceeds to tell the joke which has now been widely reported and condemned.
***
Some believe that Carr has crossed a line, as he's picked on a community that is too often marginalised. They argue that those words, as a standalone, feel brutal, discriminatory, unfunny and indefensible.

But is there a difference when the words are taken as part of an hour-long set in which Carr specifically makes clear, from the outset, that he's going to be offensive and then frames the joke within the context of "career enders"?

After telling the joke, Carr explains why he thinks it is valid. He claims it's "funny" and "edgy" because it's about "the worst thing that's ever happened in human history" which we should "never forget".

He also says there is an "educational quality" to raising it, as people know the Nazis murdered Jews, but they don't know, claims Carr, they also killed gypsies and other groups.
***
During an interview with the BBC in October, Carr said it's all about context.

"I think there's a huge difference between telling a joke on stage at 11pm and shouting it through someone's letterbox at 9am," he told my colleague Steven McIntosh.

"And when stuff is written in the papers, it looks pretty harsh, but there's no delivery, so you take away the context…. It's nuanced, it's the tone, it's the timbre of the speech, there are so many other things going on in language that aren't just the words that are being said."

[Gorth]

51 minutes ago, Raithe said:

On another tangent of background things:

BBC - Jimmy Carr: Pressure grows over comedy routine but what do the fans think?

 

 

Ironically, removing freedom of speech was one of the prerequisites for it to happen. I wonder if Johnson survives his internal party unrest (I mean, he's no way near as bad or scandalous as Scott Morrison, but still a stain on the human dna)...

[Chairchucker]

Disclaimer: haven't seen the special, don't have access to Netflix.

 

It seems like a poorly constructed joke. The punchline is just 'it's good that Roma got killed'. It's not really presented in a way that makes it anything more than that.

[majestic]

So, thanks to all the articles on the matter being really terrible, nobody linking a clip or at least providing a useful transcript of the joke I just went ahead and watched parts of it on Netflix. I'm finally going to make myself an internet persona non grata (after successfully having poorly reflected on myself so very recently ), but I don't get it. I don't mean the joke, I don't get the outrage. I think that if you're actually outraged* about the joke, then you're not getting it, or at the very least lack the context of the entire bit, the nuances and the intention, and are just angry at having read something that told you to be angry at something. Congratulations. 

If there's anything, then that it feels a little lame (not mild, just not working all that well), because I've seen similar setups being executed much better before, but that's not Jimmy Carr's fault, as I'm pretty sure he didn't copy from Serdar Somuncu who made his whole carreer with being equally "terrible" in his jokes**, except all in German, which is pretty hilarious considering Germans are usually a bit less concerned with freedom of speech and expression.

Pretty sure there's a language barrier to consider, even if it actually also contains the same pre-face and trigger warning about being politically incorrect, so he's very unlikely to have been inspired by Serdar Somuncu.

*One can still find it in poor taste while understanding what Carr meant by it. Especially after stating what he meant. That people are clamoring for his cancellation gives it a certain hilarity on a meta level that was sorely lacking from the joke. Insofar, the attempt at meta-humor worked better than the intention and execution of the actual joke.

**Best example as it really pertains to this more than the others he's done was to contrast the outrage of the Islamic terror attacks on Charlie Hebdo and the Bataclan with the absolute lack of outrage whenever Boku Haram commits terror attacks that by all means displaced, maimed and killed more people by a factor of a thousand, because nobody cares about dead "Bimbos" (German derogatory term for people of African descent, very similar to the English n-word).

Edited February 8, 2022 by majestic

[Amentep]

I thought Jimmy Carr's whole shtick was being borderline offensive and dancing around the line.