The TV and Streaming Thread: Now up for syndication...

[majestic]

It's that time of the week. I think I should turn this into a drinking game where I take a shot every time something wondrously stupid happens, but that'll turn me into a raging alcoholic, or worse, might even make me like the show.

Beverly Hills Dreck, Jumpin' to 90210, episode, uhm, 7.

Burnham crying counter: 1:4. If she doesn't cry this episode, I'm dropping it.

Mr. Crusher, start the episode, warp 2. Engage!

Spoiler

It takes the show about 15 seconds on twice the playback speed to reach the point where I'd take my first shot. Abe Sapien, Adira and Zora, the computer, are analyzing the data from the negative space wedgie from last episode. The computer helpfully says it extrapolated another possible point of origin for species TEN-C, which is what they're calling the unknown creators of the DMA. I haven't given it much thought yet, but I dread what they co(a)me up with as a species.

Have I mentioned yet how utterly stupid the concept of this huge, mobile Stargate really is when you think about it a little? The species that created it gave it the ability to traverse immense distances in an instance, but still it crossed into the Milky Way through the galactic barrier. If they can create artifical wormholes five lightyears in diameter that jump instantly from one place to the other like Discovery does, why do they need a Stargate in the first place?

Oh that's right, they don't!

Back to why we're taking a shot here, Adira exclaims, somewhat exasperated: "How many more points of origin could there be!?"

Well my dear, have you looked at the map of the known universe at some point in your several lifetimes, Madame-Trill-That-Isn't? Even if you calculate a point of entry and can extrapolate a decently accurate trajectory (for something that can instantly cross thousands of lightyears, at the very least, let's not forget that) then... no, never mind. The computer helpfully says she expects at least 147 possible locations, each 100 parsec wide, proving once again that scale isn't the strongest suit of the writers. That's 326 light years guys, that's nothing compared to galactic scales.

If Discovery starts jumping now and does a thorough scan of each area, they'll be home by dinner.

Zora says she's finished with the calculations, and she knows the EXACT point of origin. Great. So why did you write a scene just before that where Adira exasperatedly says "fine, add it to the map of possible coordinates" if... I'll take that as a double shot. We're at three now. Zora now refuses to give the coordiantes to Burnham because any mission to their place of origin is most likely doomed to failure given their technological prowess.

Somewhat sensible. It also reminds me - again - that the whole premise is dumb. Shot four!

The computer refuses a direct order. In any other show, this might make for an interesting episode, in this, I'm sure it'll be super dumb.

Cue intro.

Woody "Munch" Allen is back and going to, uhm, I think he's going to try to talk to the computer, reason with her and like, check her mental state. Not really sure. Well, he'll fail, and perhaps Culber can save the day.

President Rillak hosts a lage assembly of political delegates to discuss the DMA, and that includes Emperor Batman from the first episode. Rodney McKay is back and talking to Booker, while Woody Munch is trying to get the coordinates from Zora. Still no real hint at how he's going to do that, but he already told Burnham that Federation law prohibits integration of fully sentient AIs into Starfleet ships.

Who knows, maybe Zora will become a crewmember too. Ugh.

The quality of the makeup and the production values continue to be top notch.

Rillak does her "greatest threat ever" spiel again, although this time she's right. Like I suspected, she read the show script, or the plot outline or whatever the writers came up with and knew the reveal all along.

Woody sits around with Abe Sapien, Stamets and Culber come in, Stamets says "Zora play music!" and then yells: "GROUP HUG!" Shot five.

Stamets is concerned and wants to talk in private, but Woody Munch has none of that. Full disclosure. Stamets is scared that Zora will go Skynet on them. Thanks for reminding me of season two's plot, Paul. Hey look, Woody tells Zora that he has the authority to extract her from the ship's system, and that she'll be able to choose a new form. Like perfectly on cue, Gray and Adira show up yelling: "We want to help!"

Who invited you two, is this an open session? At this rate I'm going to need another bottle soon. Shot six.

Zora creates a kill switch for herself because she's attached to her form. Uhm. I guess that'll work for Woody, but it's not going to get them any closer to getting the coordinates out of the AI. McKay goes full McKay on the assembly by using his personal transporter. He has a weapon capable of destroying the DMA. I hope someone's getting royalties for stealing a character so blatantly. He's like a non-fun version of McKay, or perhaps a non-fun version of Harper from Andromeda.

"This is the role I slept with the producer for?"

Everyone is sort of on-board with the weapon idea but it has the potential to send a subspace destroying shockwave back to TEN-C. Uh... the Vulcans and Burnham want to make peaceful first contact, as does Batman, but everyone else doesn't look too interested in peace. Rillak actually puts that to a vote without knowing that Zora isn't interested in giving out the coordinates. Man Ms. President, Burnham is doing you dirty here.

Oh no, time for a double shot, Gray and Adira are arguing that Zora should be accepted, not controlled, and want to destroy the failsafe. Seven and eight. Guys, yes, we already did that way, way back when in Measure of a Man, an episode that's pretty much peak Trek, and so much better than anything you have ever done, or will ever do. Please don't make this about Zora being "different" but we need to accept that.

Painful dialogue that's a metaphor for being gay, trans, or whatever else you'd like ensues.

Again, the idea isn't bad, but alas, in such situations, it's not the thought that counts, but the execution.

Wow, Burnham and Book have a relationship fight over Burnham wanting to try peacful first contact and blowing the DMA up. This is just too terrible, we're at nine. Yes, that's more fun than the crying counter, but I'm only halfway through the episode, if I'd do that for real I'll probably get alcohol poisoning from it. Really mature from you, guys.

McKay wants to cross to a different universe and his plan is to get his hands on the DMA's power source to cross to a parallel universe he and a friend found where milk and honey flow and everything is peaceful. What? You mean that parallel universe stuff that took a transporter accident in TOS (not that much energy, then) and some silly anomaly in TNG that made lots and lots of different Enterprises appear? This is getting dumberererer by the minute.

Shot ten!

Much and company find out that Zora has dreams now. Well that's certainly going to change things. They're happy dreams of fun memories on Discovery. Maybe we'll get a real clip show at some point, woudn't that be something? Best of Discovery: From bad to worse!

It now interweaves Stamets talking about how hard it is to trust and accept Zora but that he's willing to try and work through their differences with Michael's moving speech about why the assembly should not vote to blow up the DMA. This is so poignant and wonderful it's moving me to tears. This is so much more meaningful coming from one of the two gays on the crew, right? Right?

Spoiler

Not.

Burnham says she hopes that no matter the vote that they can all move forward together. Book says some differences are too great a gap to bridge. If that's a breakup scene it's terrible, and totally out of place. Shot eleven. Burnham does vote for peaceful first contact. Zora meanwhile gives out the coordinates. Book looks really displeased as the vote goes in favor of not blowing the DMA up right away.

Zora is determined to be a new life form, not a sentient AI. She's overjoyed at beeing SEEN. Please go die in a fire. Why is this dialogue always so painful? Why? Twelve.

Discovery makes black baby Jesus cry.

Zora joins Starfleet. Yeah, makes sense, all in all. Stamets asks what Woody Allen would have recommended if he didn't kiss and make up by choosing to believe that Zora isn't going to turn into Skynet. Much says that he'd have been transferred off Discovery. Hey writers, have you forgotten that Stamets is the only one - next to Book who is probably not going to stick it in Michael around for much longer.

Wow, are these the jokes this show is making me make now? I think I really need to buy a bottle of booze for the next one. Look, Discovery has a Ferengi bartender. I don't even...

Gray moves back to Trill and Adira is terrified of having a long distance relationship, but Tilly's snowglobe says All Is Possible. I think I'll barf. Teenage relationship drama. Thirteen, fourteen and fifteen. Adira takes some leave, I guess she'll sit out the next episode. Hopefully more.

Oh, how unexpected. McKay has stolen the prototype of the new spore drive he was working on (which annoyed Stamets when they first met) and is now installing it with Book on his ship. SURPRISE. No one saw that coming. No one!

This episode had a riveting trailer at the end as the show goes on hiatus until February 10th, 2022. Munch very helpfully says that WHATEVER WE THINK ABOUT TEN-C, WE'RE WRONG!

Well, at least the show won't be continuing until February. Count your blessings.

Dropping the Burnham counter for the shots game. Would have been fifteen in this episode. That's not so bad, assuming an amount of 2cl per shot. Huh.

Edited December 30, 2021 by majestic

[Zoraptor]

1 hour ago, majestic said:

..Zora joins Starfleet..

Is Bruce a Star Trek Discovery writer putting his favourite obsidz board member into the show as a tribute? I think this is conclusive proof for that theory.

[ShadySands]

Just finished catching up on UnXplained with Billy Shats. I like it okay but it's not filling that HN (Ancient) Alien sized hole in my heart because even though they have what seems like 90% of the same people commenting on stuff, they don't indulge in the crazy nearly enough.

[Bartimaeus]

7 hours ago, majestic said:

Oh no, time for a double shot, Gray and Adira are arguing that Zora should be accepted, not controlled, and want to destroy the failsafe. Seven and eight. Guys, yes, we already did that way, way back when in Measure of a Man, an episode that's pretty much peak Trek, and so much better than anything you have ever done, or will ever do. Please don't make this about Zora being "different" but we need to accept that.

Painful dialogue that's a metaphor for being gay, trans, or whatever else you'd like ensues.

Again, the idea isn't bad, but alas, in such situations, it's not the thought that counts, but the execution.

So I'm a little confused about this whole "AI becomes its own person in a show of diversity and how woke the creators of this show are". Didn't that...like, already happen in TNG? Isn't that the background of Data? Pretty sure he's a Starfleet officer...right? Heck, Doc was pretty much his own thing albeit disembodied but respected as a person in Voyager as well...right? Am I crazy?

7 hours ago, majestic said:

Well, at least the show won't be continuing until February. Count your blessings.

A welcome reprieve there, at least...

[Lexx]

9 hours ago, Raithe said:

Netflix Cancelled A Series With A Perfect Rotten Tomatoes Score (giantfreakinrobot.com)

To be honest, I just checked out the trailer and I'm not really motivated to watch it either.

[Raithe]

The Wheel of Time: TV’s Best Chaotic Dungeons and Dragons Campaign - Paste (pastemagazine.com)

Whenever a fantasy television show like Game of Thrones or The Shannara Chronicles airs, connoisseurs will want to know about the usual considerations: Did they get a good cast? What changes are they making to adapt a decades-old series? Did they spend enough on effects to make them look good, and did they write the show well enough that they only use them sparingly? What new spin are they putting on charactersyou already know? And then, there is the most important one: Would it make a good Dungeons & Dragons campaign?

[majestic]

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

So I'm a little confused about this whole "AI becomes its own person in a show of diversity and how woke the creators of this show are". Didn't that...like, already happen in TNG? Isn't that the background of Data? Pretty sure he's a Starfleet officer...right? Heck, Doc was pretty much his own thing albeit disembodied but respected as a person in Voyager as well...right? Am I crazy?

No, you aren't. Everything about this whole subplot has already happened on Star Trek in one form or another, and it was consistently done better. It's really hard to properly state how God damned awful that dialogue was, so I'm not going to try and do the next best thing. To translate a joke by a Kabarett artists who I really enjoy (who sadly retired in the face of all the insanity in the world): I like to quote Merkel verbatim as I have yet to find a better way to insult her.

So let's Discovery speak for itself, shall we? Spoilered because it's spoilers, and for brevity.
 

Spoiler

This begins with the realization that some "sector" of the "source code" of Zora, halt, wait a moment. Zora is the name of the Discovery computer system after it integrated a V'Ger sized information collection Discovery happened to find, which they had to save from Control (which is the Skynet AI I keep mentioning) to stop Control from wiping out all sentient life in the Milky Way. Control was originally Section 31's super advanced artificial intelligence before it became sentient and wanted to Skynet everything. Section 31 was an addition in Deep Space 9, an independent black ops section of the Federation.

The characters in this scene are:

Paul Stamets, ship's engineer, creator of the spore drive. Primary characteristic: He's gay.

In the background: Lower left is Admiral Levi Shur, and the upper right is Captain Malfoy.

Hugh Culber, doctor, shrink and Stamets' husband. Primary characteristic: Obviously also really gay.

Imagine, it took the writers three seasons and a couple of episode to finally mention that I'm not just really gay, but also of both African and Hispanic origin!

Woody "Munch" Allen, who probably also really has a character name, but who cares, Starfleets chief expert on AI and psychiatry and other medical things. Primary characteristic: He's an expert for whatever the show needs him to have expertise on.

Expert for everything, including kitchen sinks.

Zora, ship computer system and large scale database of everything you could ever need (very handy to have around!). Prior to this Zora created a kill-switch for herself that the crew can use to terminate her function if they so desire.

I'm the holographic insert, not the person behind it. That's Gray, we'll come to him later.

Gray, former boyfriend of Adira who now transferred from Adira's Trill host to an android body. Primary characteristic: The show's stand-in for all things trans and terrible teenage romance drama.

Well, why bother looking for another image. That's Gray, behind Zora. Yep.

Adira, first successful Human/Trill symbiont joining. Primary characteristic: The show's stand-in for being non-binary. Often the cause of the terrible teenage romance drama.

I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men show from being torn apart by critics because it's so inclusive.

Abe "Saru" Sapien, who pretty much is the only actual character on the show. Played by Abe Sapien from Hellboy.

I have the rank of captain on this show, but here I'm just Burnham's first officer. I don't mind playing second fiddle to someone who is clearly a worse officer, person and captain than I am because the writers told me not to mind.

Well, so let's transcribe this. Oh Boy.

Zora is talking about her new source code part, as if source code... never mind.

ZORA: It seems to have appeared spontaneously. It is part of me, but I didn't intentionally create it.

STAMETS: We need a complete diagnostic on that function!

ZORA: I have nothing to hide, commander. You may all have full access.

ADIRA: Oh. Okay. [Poster's note: Seriously, I promise I don't add anything here.]

The gathered crew is looking at ORANGE source code here, the rest is blue, Adira zooms in, random moments from prior episodes start showing on screen.

ADIRA: That's Discovery. [Very helpful observation as that's literally the show running in itself.]

CULBER: That's when we came to the future.

SARU: And I believe that is when we first met the Sphere. [The Sphere is the V'Gerian entity Discovery encountered in season two.]

WOODY: You're sure you didn't create this?

ZORA: Yes.

STAMETS: What are we looking at?

CULBER: It's Zora's subconscious. I think they may be dreams. She's filtering the Sphere's memories and her own experiences through her new emotional understanding.

SARU: These images are a window into what she values and prioritizes. [Of course they are, Abe, my dreams are also clearly what I value.]

STAMETS: Couldn't she cherry-pick images she thinks we want to see?

WOODY: I believe she was unaware of this sector. There'd be other indication if she had created it intentionally. [Keep in mind that Woody Allen has never seen anything like this before, none of them have, but he immediately becomes an expert on it.]

I'll skip some parts here, they're talking about the images Zora's dreams show. Gray sees his homeworld, for instance. Images of connection, love and friendship, everyone around deduces that this is what Zora really is. A cast member of Hair.

STAMETS: Can all AIs dream?

WOODY: None of them can. Not unless they've been programmed to do so.

ZORA: Perhaps "artificial intelligence" fails to fully define me.

Gathered crew argue a little about what Zora is or isn't now. They conclude Zora is an entirely new life-form. Now comes the part where Stamets gives his speech.

STAMETS: I'd like to trust you, Zora, just like I trust the rest of the crew. I want to get there, but it's really hard. I'm trying to understand you. Trying to get my head around how they can be so okay with this and I'm not. [You're witnessing Stamets turning into a metaphor for intolerance.]

This is me, watching this scene again.

STAMETS: Trust is a choice, and I can make that choice. If it goes both ways. The only way we'll move forward is together. And that means you need to trust us too, Zora.

There's some dialogue about the show's plot now, I'll leave that out too.

SARU: Beautifully expressed, Commander.

STAMETS: Uhm, living with a therapist you pick up a thing or two.

CULBER: <soft chuckle, big grin> [Scene direction for Will Cruz was probably: Look as gay as you can possibly look.]

ZORA: Thank you Commander, for reaching toward me.

Zora hands over the calculated coordinates of what they're looking for in a show of trust. Everyone present has a laugh and is really happy. They join hands and sing Kumbaya. Well, no, they don't, but they metaphorically do.

Scene switches to Stamets, Woody and Saru talking in a separate room. They're talking about the evaluation of Zora. There's some stuff, then this gem:

STAMETS (to Woody): I feel good about today. It's tomorrow that worries me.

WOODY: Tell her, not me.

The show now proceeds to make Zora a Starfleet member. Another gem comes up:

WOODY: It is my determinaton that Zora is, indeed, a new life-form.

ZORA: It feels marvelous.

WOODY: What does?

ZORA: Being seen. [I'm sure all the artificial life forms on the planet are really happy about getting representation on TV here, because I really don't quite know what exactly Zora is supposed to represent.]

They all agree that Zora should join Starfleet, inlcuding Zora. They also agree on destroying the kill-switch Zora made earlier.

STAMETS: Allow me! With pleasure. [Stamets goes from having misgiving about Zora to being a full supporter in the span of two minutes, look at how easy it is to shed your intolerances guys.]

WOODY: I'll inform the powers that be.

Now the show drops a cancel culture bombshell:

STAMETS: Sir, if I hadn't changed my mind, would you really have extracted her?

WOODY: My evaluation was as much about you and the others as it was about Zora. I can see now that partnership is possible on both sides. [Zora has been the ship's computer for a season and a half now, that's in-show years.] But if that hadn't been the case, I would have recommended that you'd be assigned to another ship.

STAMETS: As it should be.

Yes, very, very tolerant of you. If Stamets wouldn't have been able to give up his misgivings in an instant, he'd have been cancelled. As it should be! Please, Twatteria, don't feel bad if you ruin someone's life over imagined slights and windmills. That's okay, it was on TV that it's fine.

All this show does it blow hot air into the bubble it's stuck in, and it does that in the worst possible way.

Voyager's doctor was a real character who the crew got to accept and appreciate over time. He wasn't just the bestest doctor ever, but was obnoxious and had flaws. Like real people do. Emergent AI was already done in TNG with Professor Moriarty, which I didn't exactly like because I didn't care for the Sherlock Holmes holodeck stuff at all, but that's my fault, not the show's, and I could still appreciate what it did with the episodes.

This here, this... travesty, isn't doing anyone a service, especially not if the message it transports is that if you have an issue with something for whatever reason and you can't just get over it in an instant, you're terrible and need to be cancelled. Emotionally, as much as that's possible, I understand that, to a point - but that's just not how people work, and works like these that try to be super-inclusive simply don't achieve anything at all - or exactly the opposite.

But yeah, we talked about that two weeks ago.

[Bartimaeus]

Oh my gosh, screw these forums, I wrote a reply and the forum neither posted it nor kept a draft. I miss the days of Firefox' Lazarus auto-text recovery extension working so I didn't have to worry about this.

1. Is Captain Malfoy also a terrible character? Please tell me it isn't so! ...This is Discovery, everything is terrible.
2. They just...decided she's a new lifeform? Just like that? A short discussion and "yep, you're a new lifeform" - that's how it works in this?
3. The general quality of dialogue writing:

3 hours ago, majestic said:

This here, this... travesty, isn't doing anyone a service, especially not if the message it transports is that if you have an issue with something for whatever reason and you can't just get over it in an instant, you're terrible and need to be cancelled. Emotionally, as much as that's possible, I understand that, to a point - but that's just not how people work, and works like these that try to be super-inclusive simply don't achieve anything at all - or exactly the opposite.

The good news is...they're going to renew this for another 6 seasons because of your loyal and enduring support!

Edited December 31, 2021 by Bartimaeus

[majestic]

30 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Oh my gosh, screw these forums, I wrote a reply and the forum neither posted it nor kept a draft. I miss the days of Firefox' Lazarus auto-text recovery extension working so I didn't have to worry about this.

At this point in my posting "carreer" I've begun making multiple copies of my posts even while writing them once they get past a length I'd be okay with if I had to re-write it. Which happens every other post.

30 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

1. Is Captain Malfoy also a terrible character? Please tell me it isn't so! ...This is Discovery, everything is terrible.

I just realized I actually have to spoiler this because Amentep is watching Discovery's first season right now.

Spoiler

Captain Malfoy isn't called Malfoy just because he's played by Lucius Malfoy Jason Isaacs. He's a secret antagonist in season one because he is from the Mirror Universe and trying overthrow Empress Michelle Yeoh.

Actual scene of Empress Michelle Yeoh. Can't stress this enough. This is actually in the show, and it was probably the best episode in the entire run. Which says... a lot.

Jason Isaacs is a better actor than this show deserves, and consequently while he did his best, not even that was enough to put out the dumpster fire. He was one of the more interesting characters in the show, but that really doesn't mean much. He's also pretty dead. The actual Captain Malfoy from the Prime Universe is presumed dead, and is probably pretty dead after the show's 930 years time skip.

 

30 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

2. They just...decided she's a new lifeform? Just like that? A short discussion and "yep, you're a new lifeform" - that's how it works in this?

That's how everything works in Discovery. On the other hand, it tried a more long-term characterization of an issue last season with the Dilithium explosion boy, and if that was any indication then by Heaven's Light, it's better they glace over everything.

Spoiler

Dilithium explosion boy's scream makes warp drives go kaboom. Not kidding here. Scream. Space. Dilithium. Warp drive KABLAMMO.

 

30 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

3. The general quality of dialogue writing:

You don't think it's good to be seen?

30 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

The good news is...they're going to renew this for another 6 seasons because of your loyal and enduring support!

That, and because Alex Kurtzman has some dirt on CBS and they can't just axe him, or whoever is in charge of CBS actually likes this trash. There's of course the potential that this is raking in lots and lots of viewers for CBS' streaming service, but I refuse to believe that.

You know how Netflix is known for funding every piece of trash they get offered, right? Netflix co-financed the first season and told CBS to stuff it when they came looking for more money for the second one. That's how bad it really is. Netflix, undesputed king of funding dumpster fires, thought it was too bad to continue.

Edited December 31, 2021 by majestic

[InsaneCommander]

The Expanse 6.4

Well, look who decided to make an appearance:

Spoiler

Admiral Duarte.

Only two episodes left. They haven't really done what will be Drummer's arc in the show, so it was about time it begun. I'm not sure I remember the book perfectly, but it seems they are simplifying some important plots.

Minor book spoilers below:

Spoiler

They implied in the show that only Ceres is starving. Iirc, other places in the belt were too in the book and that would make Drummer's speech even more effective. Maybe there isn't time for that.

Bigger book spoilers:

Spoiler

The next episode one will probably have a failed Martian attempt to attack Medina. This was not in the books (?), so it will fail. It will also serve as a good motivation for Naomi's (?) plan to attack the Slow Zone, that will make quite an interesting last episode.

 

[Hurlshort]

I finished Wheel of Time Season 1. I was very down on it after the 1st episode, but then I thought it found a decent rhythm for a bit. The last couple episodes slowed down and had more meh than good for me, but I didn't hate the ending or anything. I mean, it set a stage for the next season.

For me, the good parts were Rand's mom killing people while pregnant and a bit more screentime for Tam. I thought Lan and Nynaeve had a fairly mature romance thread that was better than the other awkward ones. I like the Dark One actor and Padan Fain. I think Rand is actually pretty well acted. The Seanchan looked neat in their 10 seconds of screentime.

I'll keep watching. It isn't as bad as it was in episode 1. I hope it continues to improve.

[Gromnir]

17 minutes ago, Hurlsnot said:

 

For me, the good parts were Rand's mom killing people while pregnant and a bit more screentime for Tam.

could tell you weren't being sarcastic, which didn't compute, so we felt compelled to search the interweb, and sure enough...

Spoiler

we near wept. not just 'cause we thought the fight scene were kinda funny, but at the 40 second mark the pregnant woman kills a martial arts genius and the feat is complete ignored. a guy, on uneven terrain at twenty meters or more, throws a knife which he manages to land point first in a target (no ez task if is not a practiced distance) and pierces steel armour. this nameless guy gets a javelin in the face and is forgotten to history and wot fans almost instantaneous, but we will solemn embrace the memory o' the knife thrower who met a pointless end on the snow-covered slopes o' dragonmount after having achieved achieved an absolute pure moment. his end, while ignoble, were not a tragedy. after all, what reason were there to continue living when you had already achieved perfection, eh?

do not mourn nameless knife thrower. envy him. we should all be so lucky.

but perhaps hurl appreciated the scene for different reasons.

HA! Good Fun!

[Hurlshort]

7 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

could tell you weren't being sarcastic, which didn't compute, so we felt compelled to search the interweb, and sure enough...

  Hide contents

 

but perhaps hurl appreciated the scene for different reasons.

HA! Good Fun!

Yeah, I didn't really take it very seriously as a martial arts display. It is a fun and fairly ridiculous scene about how hardcore the Aiel are. It isn't really worth deep diving into any of the fight scenes of the show. Don't look too closely at the trollocs.

[Raithe]

As they say, it's a beautiful fight sequence. Not a serious one. It tells the story they need to tell, and while it's somewhat silly and OTT it isn't.. glaringly wrong? Just implausible.  I always find it interesting to see the balance of "we want it to be believable" versus "we want it to tell a story" for fight sequences.

I think they benefited from directly casting a stunt-woman in the role, rather than an actor who then had to learn how to do that, helped sell the physicality of it all. Throw in fairly decent choreography for multiple people on one, and it shows they put some thought into the practicality of it to a certain extent. Not as atrocious as a certain Snoke Praetorian Guard fight sequence in another franchise..

Actually, there's some interesting behind the scenes stuff on Amazon about that episode, apparently it's the first tv show the Director was able to convince to use a Bolt robot camera to do the shooting for it. Some quirky technical aspects.

 

On a different vein:

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Raithe

[Raithe]

On fighting in tv as well..

 

 

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, Raithe said:

As they say, it's a beautiful fight sequence. Not a serious one. It tells the story they need to tell, and while it's somewhat silly and OTT it isn't.. glaringly wrong? Just implausible.  I always find it interesting to see the balance of "we want it to be believable" versus "we want it to tell a story" for fight sequences.

 

complete disagree. reimagine her fighting a single guy and suffering labor pains simultaneous. make certain it is obvious to audience that the woman's opponent is not only competent but masterful, but the pregnant woman is nevertheless somehow holding her own... until a second man shows up and joins the fight. situation just became impossible. fight continues and the woman is suffering worse labor and becoming increasing wounded, but nevertheless manages to kill both her opponents, though she too takes a fatal wound, albeit not an immediate lethal one. now tell us such a fight could not be equal impressive as a fight scene. could be more profoundly evocative. could show the pregnant woman's personal resolve and the skill o' the aiel. could achieve everything one would want to achieve from a storytelling aspect and make more emotional significant 'cause it were not campy and cartoonish. 

we love stuff like five deadly venoms, 'cause over-the-top fights have their place, but does anybody wanna defend the matrix reloaded fight scene with smith and neo? weren't the cgi which made bad, but that contributed. were unnecessary. directors thought audience wanted kewl and more? had to somehow be bigger and with greater stakes, right? *shrug* from matrix fans we heard the reloaded fight defended, and those defenses were typical as bad as the fight scene.... and at least for matrix you had already made neo sooperpowered, so at least there were some excuse for excess, though such were also a good reason not to make reloaded in the first place.  

the linked pregnant woman fight didn't have the matrix baggage and it were not fun in a kung-fu campy kinda way, so what purpose did it actual serve? sure as hell weren't necessary to do that way. 

oh, and the pregnant woman fight were indeed "glaringly wrong," but that don't mean such excesses is inherent unacceptable or bad. gotta hand it to tarantino with kill bill. he were able to do both the camp stuff and get more serious, but typical you need choose one way or the other. haven't watched wot other than the pregnant woman clip and a bit more than sixteen minutes o' episode one, so perhaps am off the mark, but am assuming the pregnant fight were not supposed to be reminiscent o' the crazy 88s battle.

crazy 88 were much better btw, in part 'cause it embraced the camp. choreography were better in kill bill, which is no surprise 'cause it were a big hollywood film.

we were quits following the ya silliness in wot episode one. am now improbable more quits.

HA! Good Fun!

[Guard Dog]

The worst part about the pregnant Aiel fight scene is Rand's mother wasn't Aiel. His FATHER was! That woman was clearly Aiel. Rand's mother was Tigraine and she was Andoran. 

Ok I'm going to go back to the couch muttering under my breath about how the books were better! 

[Raithe]

21 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

The worst part about the pregnant Aiel fight scene is Rand's mother wasn't Aiel. His FATHER was! That woman was clearly Aiel. Rand's mother was Tigraine and she was Andoran. 

Ok I'm going to go back to the couch muttering under my breath about how the books were better! 

To be fair, Tigraine was someone with the willpower and determination to march into the Waste because of an Aes Sedai prophecy that if she didn't join the Aiel the world was doomed. Then persisted in actually 3-5 years of training to become Far Dareis Mai before ending up married to Janduin, and then some more years past, and it was in the 3rd year of the Aiel War that she ended up pregnant.  So a little under a decade of Aeil experience.  Galad was roughly 8-10 years older than Rand as I recall.

Also, throw in Andoran royal upbringing, and the Andoran royal house tends to strawberry blondes, so there's that potential slide to light redheads (okay, thats a potential grope).

 

As to the storytelling aspect of the fight, what they wanted to bring out was the style of the Aiel 'dance of the spears' and how 'ninja-tastic' Aiel should be considered in the future. There aren't many purely practical ways to highlight that without being a little cinematic OTT. Plus, it was serving as a cold open to an episode. So you don't really have any buildup or character background to it, you just get dropped into that and next minute the opening credits are rolling and we're back to the "present" part of the story. Everything the audience is meant to feel purely comes about from the setting and the physical action, no dialogue. So everything has to be a pure snapshot to hook the majority audience, then it ties in to later in the episode with Rand's flashback to Tam's fever talk, and Min's talk of her first viewing.

I think that's one of the aspects that WoT struggles with. They seem to have tried that thing where a scene on it's own has a certain impact, but it actually ties in to a scene later in the episode. Or the next one over. Until you have it all there, it doesn't quite work standalone or has a slightly odd feel. Which makes the whole show have a certain feel of  hm, choppiness?

 

 

[Guard Dog]

18 minutes ago, Raithe said:

To be fair, Tigraine was someone with the willpower and determination to march into the Waste because of an Aes Sedai prophecy that if she didn't join the Aiel the world was doomed. Then persisted in actually 3-5 years of training to become Far Dareis Mai before ending up married to Janduin, and then some more years past, and it was in the 3rd year of the Aiel War that she ended up pregnant.  So a little under a decade of Aeil experience.  Galad was roughly 8-10 years older than Rand as I recall.

Also, throw in Andoran royal upbringing, and the Andoran royal house tends to strawberry blondes, so there's that potential slide to light redheads (okay, thats a potential grope).

 

As to the storytelling aspect of the fight, what they wanted to bring out was the style of the Aiel 'dance of the spears' and how 'ninja-tastic' Aiel should be considered in the future. There aren't many purely practical ways to highlight that without being a little cinematic OTT. Plus, it was serving as a cold open to an episode. So you don't really have any buildup or character background to it, you just get dropped into that and next minute the opening credits are rolling and we're back to the "present" part of the story. Everything the audience is meant to feel purely comes about from the setting and the physical action, no dialogue. So everything has to be a pure snapshot to hook the majority audience, then it ties in to later in the episode with Rand's flashback to Tam's fever talk, and Min's talk of her first viewing.

I think that's one of the aspects that WoT struggles with. They seem to have tried that thing where a scene on it's own has a certain impact, but it actually ties in to a scene later in the episode. Or the next one over. Until you have it all there, it doesn't quite work standalone or has a slightly odd feel. Which makes the whole show have a certain feel of  hm, choppiness?

 

 

Galad and Rand had the same mother and Elayne & Gawyn and Galad had the same father IIRC. Tigraine and Morgase were not related right? Other than both being married to the same man at different times. 

Y'know I just realized. Tarangail Damodred (Elaynes father) was Moiraine's father's nephew. That means Rand and Moiraine were actually second cousins by marriage?

Edited January 2, 2022 by Guard Dog

[Gromnir]

35 minutes ago, Raithe said:

 

 

As to the storytelling aspect of the fight, what they wanted to bring out was the style of the Aiel 'dance of the spears' and how 'ninja-tastic' Aiel should be considered in the future. There aren't many purely practical ways to highlight that without being a little cinematic OTT.

 

 

sure there are. coulda' done as we suggested. is also nothing to prevent "ninja-tastic" (which in itself is wholly unnecessary) with a not pregnant woman at some point later in the show, if for whatever gawdawful reason reason you wanna go that way. show the woman dispatch a couple competent swordsman in a not silly fight would somehow diminish her skill in the minds o' viewers? you are not serious. 

sorry, but this is matrix reloaded all over for us. maybe you think the pregnant woman battle is fine, which is ok. to us the fight were indeed "glaringly wrong" and were unnecessarily campy. the fight distracted from what coulda/shoulda been a more emotional impactful scene.  opinion. regardless, to suggest the fight were somehow necessary over-the-top is just plain wrong. is no doubt many ways the scene coulda' played out and am certain a few such ways wouldn't o' left Gromnir rolling his eyes and internal groaning. 

btw, if "ninja-tastic" requires superhuman abilities w/o magic, radioactive spiders or bionic man kinda stuff, then you have already left us outta your prospective circle o' fans... again, unless you is genuine going for camp as with five deadly venoms and the crazy 88s, but that scene did not strike us as trying for camp. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps as improbable as it seems, or recollection is that jordan denied his aiel were inspired by herbert's fremen. supposed inspirations were real world bedouin, apache and zulu cultures and warrior traditions, which were simillar source material for herbert. anime shinobi were not listed by jordan as inspiration.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Gromnir

[Bartimaeus]

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

complete disagree. reimagine her fighting a single guy and suffering labor pains simultaneous. make certain it is obvious to audience that the woman's opponent is not only competent but masterful, but the pregnant woman is nevertheless somehow holding her own... until a second man shows up and joins the fight. situation just became impossible. fight continues and the woman is suffering worse labor and becoming increasing wounded, but nevertheless manages to kill both her opponents, though she too takes a fatal wound, albeit not an immediate lethal one. now tell us such a fight could not be equal impressive as a fight scene. could be more profoundly evocative. could show the pregnant woman's personal resolve and the skill o' the aiel. could achieve everything one would want to achieve from a storytelling aspect and make more emotional significant 'cause it were not campy and cartoonish. 

Hurlshot seems to love cartoonish/cheesy/campy action silliness, while I have a pretty noted dislike of it*, so I suppose it's no surprise that he loved it while I facepalmed and felt actual embarrassment while watching the linked video (this is supposed to be a sincere fantasy epic...right? I mean, I've read the books, so obviously I know it is!) while immediately thinking your scene sounds great in at least concept. Sigh...different strokes for different folks, I suppose, but man...everything I ever see about this show just looks so incredibly bad.

*ESPECIALLY if it's not self-aware - if it's self-aware, then there's better likelihood of me at least appreciating such silliness some degree, although not likely in a emotional manner.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Bartimaeus

[Gromnir]

45 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

 

*ESPECIALLY if it's not self-aware - if it's self-aware, then there's better likelihood of me at least appreciating such silliness some degree, although not likely in a emotional manner.

agreed. is absolute nothing wrong with a bit o' over-the-top. raimi and tarantino do such and am finding entertaining. am double impressed when the aforementioned directors is able to do so in a movie which is otherwise serious in nature.  the thing is, the pregnant fight scene weren't embracing camp as far as we could tell. appeared to be deadly serious and aiming for extreme kewl, which felt... weird.

HA! Good Fun!

ps we misspelled "raimi." 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Gromnir

[Bartimaeus]

Just now, Gromnir said:

agreed. is absolute nothing wrong with a bit o' over-the-top. rami and tarantino do such and am finding entertaining. am double impressed when the aforementioned directors is able to do so in a movie which is otherwise serious in nature.  the thing is, the pregnant fight scene weren't embracing camp as far as we could tell. appeared to be deadly serious and aiming for extreme kewl, which felt... weird.

HA! Good Fun!

Yes, really...have we learned nothing from the new Star Wars sequels? You can have your characters be awesome...in ways that are grounded and feel deserved, that are pointed play-offs and contrasts to their established vulnerabilities. Why is everything constantly devolving to characters never making any mistakes, not having any weaknesses, and not ever being outmanuevered? Especially, it seems, for the poor women in these shows - having a character start off weak and inexperienced and having them learn from their costly mistakes, work through or at least mitigate the physical/emotional vulnerabilities they go through or discover about themselves, and succeed in spite of or even because of their character weaknesses is literally how you make strong and grounded characters that people like and want to root for. If your characters never make any mistakes or have any apparent weaknesses and are always awesome at everything right off the bat...please just throw them into the garbage can and start the whole writing process over again, because at that point you're creating clones of Superman but without the weakness to kryptonite or having them wear the 'S'-emblazoned costumes.

For this specific character's case, she's supposed to die right off the bat, so she's not a character that needs to grow or have stated weaknesses...but she's still a pregnant woman that is literally fighting for her life against vicious assailants, and that should draw some kind of empathetic response from me, and it can't - not when it's just this ridiculous cartoon action silliness that is, through its framing, informing me that none of this is serious or matters at all. Again, different strokes for different folks, I know - other people clearly love this stuff. I just want a reason to care before they forcibly drown me in a deluge of meaningless action, I guess.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

That fight scene is not good. It's not fun enough to work as camp, it's too ridiculous to work as serious, and the way the pregnant lady moves between acrobatics and emoting labor pain inspires a feeling of whiplash. Well it looks like I dodged a bullet on this show.

[Zoraptor]

3 hours ago, Raithe said:

To be fair, Tigraine was someone with the willpower and determination to march into the Waste because of an Aes Sedai prophecy that if she didn't join the Aiel the world was doomed. Then persisted in actually 3-5 years of training to become Far Dareis Mai before ending up married to Janduin, and then some more years past, and it was in the 3rd year of the Aiel War that she ended up pregnant.  So a little under a decade of Aeil experience.  Galad was roughly 8-10 years older than Rand as I recall.

Her looking Aiel is fine, their racial characteristics are 'blonds and redheads' and Tigraine was blonde. Going from a pampered princess in her early twenties to a proper Aiel fighter who can solo multiple armoured guys while having contractions a few years later stretches credibility somewhat and is only really acceptable for the standard reason that implausible things happen all the time in WoT- Rota vult. And even that is a stretch, given all she actually has to do is make it to Dragonmount and die.

OTOH, it's exactly the sort of thing that I'd be ignoring if the rest of the content was good- in the books a different daughter heir becomes an accomplished tight rope walker completely randomly after all, and without even the excuse that it had to be due to prophecy...

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

[..]

Obviously I agree pretty much completely with everything. The only caveats I'd have are with how hard it is to translate pov to TV, and that all the female main characters (counting Egwene, Nynaeve and Moiriane) in WoT aren't really 'likeable' early on, largely because they're viewed from the pov of Rand and Perrin in the books (exc Egwene, to an extent, though as I've said before I find her most likeable early on). Probably the best example of how pov effects things is Mat, who a lot of people don't like in the early books because he's seen through Rand's pov and is complaining and always saying he'd leave if he could- but, when you do get his povs he complains incessantly and is always on the verge of running off; yet somehow always ends up doing the right thing anyway. So a lot of people dislike Nynaeve in the early books because she's an authority figure to the boys and was a young woman authority figure in her village trying to order people three times her age around, or Moiraine because her intentions are opaque and the boys don't trust her. Some modification to their apparent personalities to make them more likeable is not a problem when you have a switch to a more omniscient pov because they actually are more likeable than the povs have them as.

I'm not actually sure the show tried that at all though. It's far easier to make them 'likeable' instead of likeable by having them do all the cool things. And yeah, with that approach you end up with Superman very rapidly because you have to have them doing cooler and cooler things and get into a spiral of plot inflation. Given the content of ep8, power wise there already is absolutely nowhere for them to go upwards except into the completely stupid.