Politics XXXV (Life in the Vault is about to change)

[Calax]

10 hours ago, Orogun01 said:

Man, I miss the old BCC code I could just have broken my reply into direct bits.

The China trade situation has allowed other players in the global market to compete with China's manufacturing, China isn't paying tariffs because manufacturing is moving out of China. Which is a huge win since giving a Communist power all of our manufacturing has proven lethal, as this current epidemic proves. If you think that the reason to make China pay tariffs is purely economical then you need to pay more attention to the world

The slow response has to do with the W.H.O and China lying about the number of infected as well as the political situation in the US. W.H.O is clearly in China's pocket, China undereported the severity of this virus. Meanwhile Cuomo and Pelosi were telling New Yorkers to not be racist and go to ChinaTown to celebrate the Lunar New Year, yet they don't get blasted like Trump does.

The economy saw a clear boom under Trump largely due to his tax cuts on companies as well as a reduction in illegal immigrant workforce. That wasn't a leftover from Obama's. The national debt increase is a result of trying to restore the American economy and will subsequently pay for itself.

Foreign Oil dependence is a bad thing, if the current Oil wars that threaten to further destabilize the World's economy does anything is prove how we need to be self sufficient. I do agree that nuclear energy should replace more of our production but there are safety considerations. BTW what renewable energy are you talking about? Most are in their infancy and can't yield anything worth spit.

Also, this has indeed been good fun.

We aren't actually dependant on Foreign oil right now. On the net we export more than we import although that may change as the cost of oil drops due to a surge from cheaper countries (Saudi and Russia). It's why the production war and disagreements have been making the news around Covid. Meanwhile Minnesota is currently moving to an entirely green energy grid by 2050(I think... may be sooner) with the Nuke plant that's just north of my current home having it's permit ending right as the energy company no longer needs it because wind etc have taken up the burden.

The economy didn't see a "clear boom" under Trump. Through the entire presidency there have been worries that his actions with China and others would slow/kill the economic growth that was created in the aftermath of the 2008 crash. The cuts inflated Wall Street, certainly, but that's because rather than creating a space for additional economic activity to take place (by providing workers more money to spend as consumers), the companies used those dollars to initiate buyback programs to boost their stock prices to show off to hedge fund managers.

I mean, at the start of his administration he basically forced a reversal on Net Neutrality rules that has begun a slow process by which we'll start paying more money for the same speeds (of internet) we're operating at now, which are significantly behind those of our colleges across the Atlantic. 

Realistically if he wanted to help the economy he'd need to actually grow a spine towards big business and initiate projects to break up the massive conglomeration of business. Disney is quietly closing in on a monopoly around entertainment, Amazon has effectively created a monopoly that's only strengthened by the Stay-At-Home orders, and their leaders feel like all they need to do to get away with any real crimes is to make a massive donation to the Trump campaign via super PAC and they'll get a presidential pardon, or intervention.

[Guard Dog]

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

I wish it was that simple, I really do. Last time I went shopping for cutlery (I know, I got two hands, but... spoons are much better at liquid stuff), I had a choice between about 30 different sets from 4 different brands. All made in China (and obviously made at the lowest possible cost, judging by the quality of the manufacture and the finish of the sets).

Luckily I still have a few oldies brought with me from Europe, made 30 years ago in Germany. Unlike the so called "stainless steel" cutlery from China, the 3 decades old German stuff actually doesn't rust. The made in China stuff looks like it's ready for the scrap heap after a single trip to the dishwasher.

Would I prefer to buy more of the old German stuff? You bet, but no department stores or home whatever stores carries those ranges, only the lowest possible cost stuff.

If anything, you can blame history for having led us to a situation where people don't really much of a real choice, it's digging the hole deeper or eat with your hands.

 

Edit: I did mention a while back, I believe that unregulated capitalism leads to no choice at too high prices for what you get (monopolies).

 

In the internet world you really can buy anything from anyone anywhere. If your personal ethics dictate that you will not do business with China, even indirectly, then you accept the inconvenience of that decision and reward more deserving sellers with your business. Never forget, your business IS a reward. No one is entitled to it. No one can tell you who deserves it or who can have it but you. There is no product on this earth that is manufactured solely in China. There is nothing that cannot be bought from elsewhere. 

[Guard Dog]

1 hour ago, Malcador said:

Enjoy your $1.50. 

And I begrudge them every penny of it. 

[HoonDing]

Blame Truman for why Russia and China are still around today.

[Guard Dog]

6 minutes ago, HoonDing said:

Blame Truman for why Russia and China are still around today.

You think Patton & McArthur were right?

[Malcador]

5 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

And I begrudge them every penny of it. 

Why though ? The idea of the WHO is a good one, no ? 

Huh, the US in arrears with its payments as well.  I guess that shouldn't come as a surprise.

[Orogun01]

24 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Why though ? The idea of the WHO is a good one, no ? 

Huh, the US in arrears with its payments as well.  I guess that shouldn't come as a surprise.

Kinda like the European Union was a good idea?
The push for multilateral global organizations came about to avoid another World War. Quite frankly, I don't know what the WHO does and they're too political to be considered a medical organization. My guess is that they take credit for barely being a middleman in global negotiations.

[Malcador]

10 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

Kinda like the European Union was a good idea?

Odd comparison, but it's like how UNICEF or the UNHCR is a good idea.  Then again, I forget this is dealing with Americans.

[Guard Dog]

1 minute ago, Malcador said:

Why though ? The idea of the WHO is a good one, no ? 

Huh, the US in arrears with its payments as well.  I guess that shouldn't come as a surprise.

Sure the idea is great. But like most international organizations it does not actually do what it was organized to do. It has, like so many others become a platform for individuals. A high paying job doing little to nothing. And it also becomes a political tool for countries like China just as it did in this instance. 

You know Malc I will never understand why organizations like this, like Amnesty International and other bend over backwards to be accommodating to nations that are the antithesis of their very existence all while literally biting the hands that actually feed them.  

[Guard Dog]

That's it... I give up: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/in-unprecedented-move-treasury-orders-trumps-name-printed-on-stimulus-checks/ar-BB12DsbB?ocid=spartanntp

 

[Malcador]

8 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

That's it... I give up: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/in-unprecedented-move-treasury-orders-trumps-name-printed-on-stimulus-checks/ar-BB12DsbB?ocid=spartanntp

 

This is what happens when your dad didn't love you enough.

[213374U]

  

10 hours ago, Orogun01 said:

Man, I miss the old BCC code I could just have broken my reply into direct bits.

Yes, BBCode is something that forum users and admins have been asking the IPB developer for since they dropped it for 4.0. Apparently if you want it you are part of a dwindling and backward segment of web-dwellers. So, "OK forum-goer".

Regardless, you can still generate multiple quotes of the same post by clicking on the quote post button as many times as you need and then trim around the quoted part, if that's what you want.

 

 

8 hours ago, Gorth said:

Renewable energy CAN work if the will is there... mind you, it's still only half and it doesn't account for a fleet of cars that still mostly fossil fuel driven (sorry Tesla)

It can work but it's been massively oversold, just as with about everything else pushed by any politician ever. There are serious concerns over scalability (generally low capacity factor, geographical constraints, etc). A grid centered on renewable sources would also depend on power storage technologies that do not exist commercially yet. The economic hurdles are immense as well and there are serious doubts that transitioning to 100% renewable (where, anyway?) within 30 years is achievable. In the oft-cited example of Germany, the term "energy" is often used in headlines and articles where "electricity" is meant, which is fallacious because it glosses over trucks and boilers not running on electric power, as you mentioned.

The distinction between "clean" and "renewable" is important as well. There's no disputing that renewables are better from a climate perspective, but solar panels alone are estimated to generate anywhere between 35 and 70 million tons of waste panels with current adoption rates by 2050. It'd be difficult and expensive to recycle that. Something similar with wind power (estimated ~40 million tons by 2050) and blades being notoriously hard to recycle. Geothermal is possibly the closest to truly "green" there is, but it's not available everywhere, same with hydroelectric, and would not be able to cover the demand in full. Especially considering that demand keeps increasing, which points to the real, underlying problem, imo.

It's a one-size-fits-all solution that would require massive economic resources being funneled into it and a laser focus on it from a political perspective. In this day and age, I don't think either is in ample supply.

Fusion's much cooler anyway. And there are no waterfalls or geothermal wells in space.

[Gromnir]

2 hours ago, Gorth said:

I wish it was that simple, I really do. Last time I went shopping for cutlery (I know, I got two hands, but... spoons are much better at liquid stuff), I had a choice between about 30 different sets from 4 different brands. All made in China (and obviously made at the lowest possible cost, judging by the quality of the manufacture and the finish of the sets).

Luckily I still have a few oldies brought with me from Europe, made 30 years ago in Germany. Unlike the so called "stainless steel" cutlery from China, the 3 decades old German stuff actually doesn't rust. The made in China stuff looks like it's ready for the scrap heap after a single trip to the dishwasher.

Would I prefer to buy more of the old German stuff? You bet, but no department stores or home whatever stores carries those ranges, only the lowest possible cost stuff.

If anything, you can blame history for having led us to a situation where people don't really much of a real choice, it's digging the hole deeper or eat with your hands.

 

Edit: I did mention a while back, I believe that unregulated capitalism leads to no choice at too high prices for what you get (monopolies).

 

even more insidious.

@Guard Dog has his larder full o' canned foods to get him through the coming apocalypse, yes? many o' the cans producers use is from china and even those who don't use chinese cans are probably using chinese steel to make cans or the lining o' cans. am recalling a couple stories from last year how trump tariffs were hitting the canned food industry hard 'cause of issues with steel and cans. is products which is sold with individual extreme small profit margins, so changes in canning costs caused a serious impact which were felt 'cross industry, including individual farmers and small producers.

For One California Company, Trump's Tariffs Have Unintended Consequences

How Trump's steel tariffs kick the can business

does gd know for certain if the tinplate lining his cans is japanese, mexican or chinese? 

car parts. factory equipment. nails?

am betting gd purchased a few chinese products w/o even realizing. not a criticism. is likely most o' us is buying chinese  even if we are conscious attempting to avoid doing so.

and is nothing freaking wrong with buying products which take advantage o' cheap chinese production. fox opinion pundits rail 'bout globalism, but has nothing whatsoever to do with ideological globalism. is free freaking market and rational business practices which has American manufacturers and consumers purchasing chinese alternatives. 

'course you gotta plan for contingencies. can't rely on china for essential goods and components given they act adversarial far too often.

Federal government spent millions to ramp up mask readiness, but that isn’t helping now

"In September 2018, the Trump administration received detailed plans for a new machine designed to churn out millions of protective respirator masks at high speed during a pandemic."

end of the story on that piece o' equipment. hhs keeps recommending development o' prototype machine, but no money were allocated.

cheap in retrospect. obama admin, based on bush era recommendations, started a program to do something 'bout PREDICTED n95 shortages. $9.8 million spent to develop two options: 1) a machine which would mass produce n95 masks quick; 2) a reusable n95 mask.

rail 'gainst cheap chinese products or globalism is silly and inefficient. like it or not, in a global economy, buy American doesn't necessarily mean you are avoiding buying chinese. even so, the fed needs be cognizant o' realities o' shifting world conflicts to prepare for an eventuality when essential goods and components sudden become impossible or prohibitive to purchase. 

HA! Good Fun!

[Guard Dog]

21 minutes ago, 213374U said:

  It can work but it's been massively oversold, just as with about everything else pushed by any politician ever. There are serious concerns over scalability (generally low capacity factor, geographical constraints, etc). A grid centered on renewable sources would also depend on power storage technologies that do not exist commercially yet. The economic hurdles are immense as well and there are serious doubts that transitioning to 100% renewable (where, anyway?) within 30 years is achievable. In the oft-cited example of Germany, the term "energy" is often used in headlines and articles where "electricity" is meant, which is fallacious because it glosses over trucks and boilers not running on electric power, as you mentioned.

The distinction between "clean" and "renewable" is important as well. There's no disputing that renewables are better from a climate perspective, but solar panels alone are estimated to generate anywhere between 35 and 70 million tons of waste panels with current adoption rates by 2050. It'd be difficult and expensive to recycle that. Something similar with wind power (estimated ~40 million tons by 2050) and blades being notoriously hard to recycle. Geothermal is possibly the closest to truly "green" there is, but it's not available everywhere, same with hydroelectric, and would not be able to cover the demand in full. Especially considering that demand keeps increasing, which points to the real, underlying problem, imo.

It's a one-size-fits-all solution that would require massive economic resources being funneled into it and a laser focus on it from a political perspective. In this day and age, I don't think either is in ample supply.

Fusion's much cooler anyway. And there are no waterfalls or geothermal wells in space.

Excellent post. There is no green solution currently in use that provides "on demand" power in the quantity required. My home does have solar power but as you already know that means batteries, inverters, and consequently a loss of efficiency which was not high to begin with. One way to resolve that is a house powered entirely by DC electric power. Not easy to do and you can forget large appliances and electronics. However, I have been building a separate DC power system in my house with it's own circuits and breaker/distribution path. The idea being an independent power system rather than a shared one. 

[Guard Dog]

@Gromnir I have not knowingly bought a product made in China in the last 5 years. What set me off was all the pet products they exported with contaminants in it. And the moldy drywall. I am actually very circumspect about that kind of thing. And all of my produce and preserves are either dried, frozen or canned in 16 oz mason jars. I bought 1k of them several years ago. Glass with steel tops. Don't know where the tops came from but the glass jars were made in Silver Spring MD. Just speaking of my solar system. The batteries were made in Vietnam and the inverters came from Taiwan (aka good China). The cables all came from Beldan and were made in either Rochester NY or Ontario. Then panels themselves came from Sun Power and were manufactured just down the road from you in San Jose. It IS possible to do this. But it means doing a little homework about what you buy and where it came from.

Like I told Gorth, if your personal ethics demand you abstain from rewarding business with China then you do it. The last thing I bought that I know came from China was my Kindle. I won't buy another if that does not change.  

[Bartimaeus]

[Gromnir]

1 minute ago, Guard Dog said:

@Gromnir I have not knowingly bought a product made in China in the last 5 years.

again, "knowing" doesn't mean you ain't actual bought chinese. buy made in usa products does not mean such purchases is absent china contributions 'bout which you is unaware. made in rochester or san jose does not preclude possibility (likely) more than one component or part required a chinese contribution. 

gd hasn't used a nail in last five years? even if the nail were made in usa, is a good chance were chines steel involved. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps sunpower

[Orogun01]

1 hour ago, Malcador said:

Odd comparison, but it's like how UNICEF or the UNHCR is a good idea.  Then again, I forget this is dealing with Americans.

Now now, I don't get smug and ad hominem when you fail to understand our politics. I'll admit I just want to compare to a failing union, but these kind of organizations are really focused on one issue. The W.H.O has thrown their lot politically with an enemy of the West, just like Brexit we have no reason to support an organization that has failed us, much less one that has betrayed us.

[Malcador]

3 hours ago, Orogun01 said:

Now now, I don't get smug and ad hominem when you fail to understand our politics. I'll admit I just want to compare to a failing union, but these kind of organizations are really focused on one issue. The W.H.O has thrown their lot politically with an enemy of the West, just like Brexit we have no reason to support an organization that has failed us, much less one that has betrayed us.

It's not an ad hominem, just that over the years I can reliably count on them to cry down any international body (when they complain about the UN, they or any of the Permanent 5 doing that is somewhat funny) or aid effort.  As for the WHO I can see how they failed I can see the point, but how have they betrayed the US ? 

It'll be funny at least to see what reforms Pomepo and Trump will come up with that will make the WHO better.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Malcador

[Orogun01]

1 hour ago, Malcador said:

It's not an ad hominem, just that over the years I can reliably count on them to cry down any international body (when they complain about the UN, they or any of the Permanent 5 doing that is somewhat funny) or aid effort.  As the the WHO I can see how they failed I can see the point, but how have they betrayed the US ? 

It'll be funny at least to see what reforms Pomepo and Trump will come up with that will make the WHO better.

Well,  in spite of the populace forgetting what this country was meant to be about or what the current wave or corporate socialist want it to be about. The US Constitution protects the rights of the individual, because the individual makes up a community and who better to determine what happens in a community than the people that live there.  So you might forgive us Americans for being mistrustful of big entities telling us that we need them, specially when they fail at the very thing they were made for because there's no way a global conglomerate can represent the interests of individuals. They're not made to do that.

The W.H.O is clearly in China's pocket; you need proof just google the phone call where they dodged the question about Taiwan. Definite proof of Chinese meddling, and if they're for China then they are inadvertently against the US. In case you haven't noticed, the West and China are competing and if China wins you can say goodbye to your freedoms.

[Azdeus]

35 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

Well,  in spite of the populace forgetting what this country was meant to be about or what the current wave or corporate socialist want it to be about. The US Constitution protects the rights of the individual, because the individual makes up a community and who better to determine what happens in a community than the people that live there.  So you might forgive us Americans for being mistrustful of big entities telling us that we need them, specially when they fail at the very thing they were made for because there's no way a global conglomerate can represent the interests of individuals. They're not made to do that.

The W.H.O is clearly in China's pocket; you need proof just google the phone call where they dodged the question about Taiwan. Definite proof of Chinese meddling, and if they're for China then they are inadvertently against the US. In case you haven't noticed, the West and China are competing and if China wins you can say goodbye to your freedoms.

To be fair, it'd be really counterproductive to lose track of one 5th of the human population.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Azdeus
Word choice

[Orogun01]

4 minutes ago, Azdeus said:

To be fair, it'd be really counterproductive to lose track of one 5th of the human population.

Except reports of the Wuhan Flu happened in China during November, the reason we found out wasn't the W.H.O but journalists. The W.H.O is the organization that refuses to call it the Wuhan Flu, trusted the China figures at the peril of the rest of the world. They're not so much tracking them as aiding them.

[Malcador]

37 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

Well,  in spite of the populace forgetting what this country was meant to be about or what the current wave or corporate socialist want it to be about. The US Constitution protects the rights of the individual, because the individual makes up a community and who better to determine what happens in a community than the people that live there.  So you might forgive us Americans for being mistrustful of big entities telling us that we need them, specially when they fail at the very thing they were made for because there's no way a global conglomerate can represent the interests of individuals. They're not made to do that.

The W.H.O is clearly in China's pocket; you need proof just google the phone call where they dodged the question about Taiwan. Definite proof of Chinese meddling, and if they're for China then they are inadvertently against the US. In case you haven't noticed, the West and China are competing and if China wins you can say goodbye to your freedoms.

Sure seems to be the issue most Americans have, although it seems off the mark especially with the UN where they are elite of the group, heh.  But no need to do away with the WHO and leave nothing there, as was my original point to GD, just have to pick a US/West stooge.  Hm, wonder how involved the US was with picking a candidate for the WHO director last time - I guess they'd have backed the British doctor.

[Zoraptor]

58 minutes ago, Orogun01 said:

Except reports of the Wuhan Flu happened in China during November, the reason we found out wasn't the W.H.O but journalists. The W.H.O is the organization that refuses to call it the Wuhan Flu, trusted the China figures at the peril of the rest of the world. They're not so much tracking them as aiding them.

I always find it amusing that the US insisting on something clearly political isn't a bad thing when others doing the same thing is. An organisation bowing to pressure for the US is fine, bowing to pressure from anyone else is the sign of a flawed, corrupt organisation. Meanwhile members of Trump's admin are bringing in wheelbarrows of cash to Florida to make sure that the fricking WWE is labelled as 'essential' and not subject to lockdown; which about sums up how things work and the expectations of Trump's America. You can also pretty much guarantee that the people complaining about the WHO now would be incandescent with rage if a similar approach to that they wanted taken with China were taken with the US. Indeed, we can already see that, China doesn't want it called the Chinese or Wuhan virus, the US does, China doesn't want Taiwan mentioned, the US does, and toys will come out of cot when either doesn't get their way.

WHO ain't going to call it Wuhan Flu because you call it SARS-CoV2 or Covid-19 or even generic old coronavirus for a reason- it's a coronavirus, not a flu. Flu is a, uh, orthomyxovirus, generically influenza/ flu (for good reason) and while they do share similarities with coronaviruses like ssRNA they are taxonomically different. Ironically the most prominent and deadly example of actual influenza was Spanish (sic) Flu which very likely originated in... the US and definitely didn't originate in Spain.

The US had relatively speaking plenty of time to prepare for covid19, the failure to do so effectively is largely on Trump downplaying everything (with a hearty dollop left over for D and other orange man bad types grandstanding on issues where Trump did do the right thing, like banning travel). China's behaviour has- as pretty much always- been awful with a policy of deliberate lies throughout but the WHO cannot simply invade China to get the true picture. They have also consistently been misquoted by Trumpians trying to run interference. Eg they did not say there was no human to human transmission, they said there was no evidence for it at that time (because, basically, China was lying about it- but they also had no particular reason to doubt them given that other recent coronaviruses with animal origin like SARS or MERS do have very low infectivity). The WHO issued a directive saying there was definite human to human transmission in early January iirc, about two months before Trump started taking covid19 seriously.

On a broader front and the broader issue, the US cannot complain about China's growing influence while simultaneously withdrawing from everything and anything half way multilateral they feel like because it isn't a tool for the US, Obama derangement syndrome or simple hubris. That just leads to handing China influence by default giftwrapped on a silver platter. One of the reasons there's so little international support for 'Wuhan Virus' is that pretty much everyone international literally literally hates Pompeo and Trump, and the US has already burnt through almost all of the goodwill that could have got support from Europe and others. No one wants to allow Trump the cover of blaming China, and given the low regard China is held in that really says something about how the current US admin is viewed.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Zoraptor

[Gfted1]

Ah, thats what the mewling is about, we're the biggest teat. How typical.