Baldur's Gate 3 - the 2nd thread

[xzar_monty]

11 hours ago, Skarpen said:

Let's be real there isn't a single game in existence where RtwP combat is any good.

BG2? PoE? Deadfire? Those three spring to mind immediately.

[Judicator]

11 hours ago, Skarpen said:

Let's be real there isn't a single game in existence where RtwP combat is any good.

Baldur's Gate 2 beats any TB game ever made.

Edited March 3, 2020 by Judicator

[xzar_monty]

Here's a rather annoying thing about the way these conversations often go. Someone (like me, for instance) suggests that BG2 is still a cRPG that essentially hasn't been topped, i.e. it's better than PoE, Deadfire, P:K and what have you. And this is actually my opinion (although the other games I listed are very good, too). The way this claim is often taken is this: that's just nostalgia speaking, you only like it because it was in your past, etc. But this is not true. To make a musical analogy: I wasn't even born when Yes made their album Close to the Edge, but it just so happens that it's an awful lot better than anything I've heard by anyone in the whole 2000s. And to anyone interested, I can present a very cogent and thorough argument as to why I think the way I do. I don't expect anyone's opinion to be overturned by that argument (and it shouldn't), but the point is that it's not a question of nostalgia -- the nostalgia argument is often asinine, although of course the nostalgia phenomenon also exists. But BG2 really is that good, ditto the album.

A similar problem exists with the "hater" term, i.e. someone (like me, for instance) points out that D:OS2 doesn't actually look that good and that the game has a rather dreadful combat system, poor dialogue, uninteresting storytelling, etc. And the response to this that I'm a D:OS2 "hater" and that's that, end of discussion. But no, I don't hate it, I'm simply not impressed by it.

[Skarpen]

36 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

BG2? PoE? Deadfire? Those three spring to mind immediately.

All criticized for combat. Good games but poor combat. 

27 minutes ago, Judicator said:

Baldur's Gate 2 beats any TB game ever made.

In combat? Nope ☺

6 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Here's a rather annoying thing about the way these conversations often go. Someone (like me, for instance) suggests that BG2 is still a cRPG that essentially hasn't been topped, i.e. it's better than PoE, Deadfire, P:K and what have you. And this is actually my opinion (although the other games I listed are very good, too). The way this claim is often taken is this: that's just nostalgia speaking, you only like it because it was in your past, etc. But this is not true. To make a musical analogy: I wasn't even born when Yes made their album Close to the Edge, but it just so happens that it's an awful lot better than anything I've heard by anyone in the whole 2000s. And to anyone interested, I can present a very cogent and thorough argument as to why I think the way I do. I don't expect anyone's opinion to be overturned by that argument (and it shouldn't), but the point is that it's not a question of nostalgia -- the nostalgia argument is often asinine, although of course the nostalgia phenomenon also exists. But BG2 really is that good, ditto the album.

A similar problem exists with the "hater" term, i.e. someone (like me, for instance) points out that D:OS2 doesn't actually look that good and that the game has a rather dreadful combat system, poor dialogue, uninteresting storytelling, etc. And the response to this that I'm a D:OS2 "hater" and that's that, end of discussion. But no, I don't hate it, I'm simply not impressed by it.

Welcome to the present. Ratings go like this:

5/5 Fanboy

4/5 Hater

3/5 Hater

2/5 Hater

1/5 Hater

I was once threatened to be sued for rating some restaurant 4/5. Crazy times.

[xzar_monty]

@Skarpen: Criticized by whom for combat? Whose opinion is it that they're "Good games but poor combat"? Yours? If so, would you care to back that up? I am genuinely interested.

In my view, the combat in all those games is a lot better than anything I've ever seen in any TB game. If you disagree, would you care to name a few TB games whose combat you think is better. Again, I'm genuinely interested.

[213374U]

7 hours ago, Judicator said:

I'm not familiar with 5e, so I'll take your word for it.

Me neither. Warfare is the typical frontline fighter tree in DOS2.

[Majek]

Troika's ToEE has better combat than any IE game.

[xzar_monty]

That's actually possible, although I don't remember it very well. I gave the game a try, but as the problems in writing were so enormous, I chucked it pretty soon.

[Hurlshort]

BG2 was great, but it wasn't the combat that made it enjoyable for me. Same with PoE and I've loved actually knowing what is going on with the TB version of Deadfire. I mean, I guess it is just a matter of preference, but I tend to have a lot more engagement and involvement in the systems when a game is turn-based. 

7 hours ago, Judicator said:

Baldur's Gate 2 beats any TB game ever made.

JA2. Come at me, bro. 

[E.RedMark]

Turn-based is fun. Because you can stop and think about your move. But it can be exhausting over time. It's like playing a chess game one after another. 

 

I think there is a miscommunication here, between the fans. At least in my case, I got friends coming to tell me ''Its use DnD 5th Rules! That's SO much better then BG ever had! *Nudge Nudge* Don't you see ??? It's an IMprrrrrrovement! I'm SO hyped now'' .

 

You know, my father had this old Honda car. It was a 2 doors. It was a very old car . They stopped making those and he still have it. Still look brand new, cose he took care of it. But they don't make the motor or the pieces , so he can't get it fixed. 

 

It was Silver in color. The back seat were tight, but the front seats so confy. And that motor. Omg! I don't know squat about cars, but his was like a freaking Harley purring. 

 

So here come Dum dum, telling me this 2020 car is a Honda. The motor is 10000% better then what my father car had. It's a 4 doors, it has more space in the back. 

 

The new car is faster, confier. But doesn't look sexy at all . Sure the motor is stronger, but it doesn't purr at all. 

 

Dude!! It maybe better, but better doesn't beat Nostalgia So I'm like, why can't you mix the two instead ? 

[kanisatha]

On 3/2/2020 at 1:30 PM, algroth said:

Again I hear DOS handles TB exceptionally well so maybe they also find ways to make TB flow better and not become the bloated, stilted experience I usually find it to be, but at least in the BG3 presentation it feels exactly like TB usually feels for me.

I'd be interested in your take. I always preferred RTwP but was not opposed to TB combat systems. And then I played D:OS1. The ONLY thing I got out of playing D:OS1 was an abiding hatred for TB combat. So it is precisely D:OS that killed TB combat for me.

[xzar_monty]

19 minutes ago, E.RedMark said:

Dude!! It maybe better, but better doesn't beat Nostalgia So I'm like, why can't you mix the two instead ? 

By the way, if you know mathematics and are aware of probabilities, you can also ascertain the following:

A game that has been around for a substantial amount of time and has been a well-known favorite for all of that time [note: BG2 fulfills these criteria] is likely to be better than a new game that's just coming out. Simply according to the laws of probability.

Likewise, a book that has constantly been in print for 170 years (like David Copperfield by Charles Dickens) is overwhelmingly likely to be a lot better than a book chosen at random from those published this year -- and the odds are in its favour for it being better than ALL books published this year. Again, simply according to the laws of probability.

Since we are talking about probabilities, we can only make predictions. But the fact is that it realistically isn't easy to beat something that's genuinely been around for quite some time and remains a favourite among consumers.

[xzar_monty]

1 minute ago, kanisatha said:

I'd be interested in your take. I always preferred RTwP but was not opposed to TB combat systems. And then I played D:OS1. The ONLY thing I got out of playing D:OS1 was an abiding hatred for TB combat. So it is precisely D:OS that killed TB combat for me.

This is remarkably similar to my experience, except that I had it with D:OS2 and that I didn't hate TB combat, I just found it totally uninteresting and a waste of time. To such an extent that it's unlikely I'll go for BG3.

[kanisatha]

7 hours ago, Skarpen said:

All criticized for combat. Good games but poor combat.

Criticized by whom? TB purists?

It's entirely subjective. For me there are no games out there with a good TB combat system.

[sorophx]

guys, this isn't the thread for "TB vs RTWP" posts. both are flawed and should never be used for anything other than nostalgia-driven projects.

but the real issue is, BG was RTWP no matter how you spin it. this new game has no business being titled "Baldur's Gate" if it's not RTWP. secondly, the Bhaal spawn saga is over, this game shouldn't have a "3" in its title.

shoulda called it "Pool of Radiance" and be done with it.

[E.RedMark]

I was told that 1) Wizard of the Coast wanted it to be called that, and since they are the ''Power That be'' they can do whatever they want. 

 

And 2) that the City of Baldur's exist in the trailer or something? hence the name. 

 

*Shrug* Baldur's Gate: Divinity Old Sin! How hard is that ? 

[Zoraptor]

Calling it Baldur's Gate is fine. NWN was a MMO, then two SP(ish) games. Then an MMO again? So out of the loop with MMOs I'm not sure. Not like the IPLY BG3 was going to be a sequel either. Publishers love their brand recognition, and BG has brand recognition which hasn't yet been tainted much.

1 hour ago, Hurlshot said:

JA2. Come at me, bro. 

This is most certainly the correct answer. Not a useful comparison for computer D&D unfortunately, whether TB or RT, though I wish it were.

Edited March 3, 2020 by Zoraptor

[Hurlshort]

24 minutes ago, sorophx said:

guys, this isn't the thread for "TB vs RTWP" posts. both are flawed and should never be used for anything other than nostalgia-driven projects.

but the real issue is, BG was RTWP no matter how you spin it. this new game has no business being titled "Baldur's Gate" if it's not RTWP. secondly, the Bhaal spawn saga is over, this game shouldn't have a "3" in its title.

shoulda called it "Pool of Radiance" and be done with it.

That ship kind of sailed when Bethesda took Fallout 3 and made it into a massive hit.

[Skarpen]

7 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

@Skarpen: Criticized by whom for combat? Whose opinion is it that they're "Good games but poor combat"? Yours? If so, would you care to back that up? I am genuinely interested.

In my view, the combat in all those games is a lot better than anything I've ever seen in any TB game. If you disagree, would you care to name a few TB games whose combat you think is better. Again, I'm genuinely interested.

I think few guys above beat me to it. But I will toss in addition to above:

Both South Park rpgs

Wizardry series

Wasteland 2

Legend of Heroes series

Final Fantasy series

Darkest Dungeon

Shadowrun series

 

As for RtwP combat being bad you can google it. Plenty of topics even in this forum. 

[213374U]

39 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

 Not like the IPLY BG3 was going to be a sequel either. Publishers love their brand recognition, and BG has brand recognition which hasn't yet been tainted much.

Heh, I thought that was a more or less widely known fact, but I'm not so sure anymore. The Black Hound was going to have absolutely nothing to do with the Bhaalspawn story, and the eponymous city was most likely not going to appear in the game either.

And yeah, publishers be like "an unbastardized* brand? give it here".

 

*I remember a similar reaction when the Dark Alliance games came out. It's possible there's a handful of posts about it even here.

[sorophx]

1 hour ago, Hurlshot said:

That ship kind of sailed when Bethesda took Fallout 3 and made it into a massive hit.

these two things don't necessarily have direct causality. of course, we can't know for sure whether or not the name "Fallout" was the main reason behind its success, but I am of the opinion that ultimately it was the game itself and not the brand. I'm certain it would've done equally as well if it had been called RAGE back then and was set in RAGE's universe.

Fallout 3 is not a Fallout game, it's a post-apocalyptic game that takes a few of the cosmetic elements from the previous Fallout games. which is exactly what's happening now with BG3.

[Hurlshort]

I don't believe Rage is anywhere near the success level on Fallout 3 & 4. They used the name and the universe to get their foot in the door. Yeah, it was a different camera, combat system, etc. But you were still a vault dweller stepping out into a wasteland.

[Oner]

4 hours ago, Hurlshot said:

JA2. Come at me, bro. 

I hated JA2. ,o/

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

The Forgotten Realms should be torched tbh. Ravenloft, Starjammer, or Darksun would make objectively better settings.

[ShadySands]

38 minutes ago, Hurlshot said:

I don't believe Rage is anywhere near the success level on Fallout 3 & 4. They used the name and the universe to get their foot in the door. Yeah, it was a different camera, combat system, etc. But you were still a vault dweller stepping out into a wasteland.

I don't think the branding made a huge difference in the success of the nuFallouts TBH. I also think it was more due to popular Bethesda gameplay in a different setting, Skyrim Oblivion with guns as it was jokingly put, more or less.

Edited March 3, 2020 by ShadySands