Lets Get Political

[Gfted1]

"QQ" What? War is traumatizing? Who knew?

(summons gromnir)

 

[Malcador]

5 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

"QQ" What? War is traumatizing? Who knew?

(summons gromnir)

 

The lack of support after is the issue.  If no one ever QQ's nothing ever is fixed and we all get ****ed.

[Guard Dog]

On 5/26/2019 at 1:50 PM, BruceVC said:

Im also interested in what GD interpretation of the government plot was, I have spent  lots of time following the post election views  and assessments and who did what and I am not sure how Obama tried to plot against Trump?

The only plot I know of was external and it was the Russians unacceptable  attempts to influence the election in order to get the USA sanctions against them dropped ..and sanctions under Trump by people in his presidency and the US Congress  have prudently been increased so that was  an epic fail 

OK, the short strokes of a long story: In early 2016 the Clinton Campaign and the DNC hired a company called Fusion GPS for opposition research on Trump's camp. Fusion GPS used a former MI-6 agent named Christopher Steele to do the work. The Steele Dossier is the genesis of the whole Trump-Russia thing. He is the one who said Russia was helping Trump get elected and that Russian intel & the Trump Campaign were working together to win the election. After the election Steele and Fusion continued to research and send info to British and American intel. Now, Fusion does not work for free and the election was over so who is paying for this? 

The CIA didn't take it seriously because the Steele Dossier was unverifiable and is some respects, not credible. The FBI seems to have believed every word of it and they got warrants, wiretaps, and a full on investigation. That is pretty much what you would expect the FBI to do. Kinda why they are even a thing. You have heard the term "Crossfire Hurricane", and not the Rolling Stones song, that is it. Now, was this an investigation or a political witch hunt? I tend to think it was more the former. The FBI is not and has never been apolitical (nice dress there J Edgar). And some of it's agents and even directors have used the agency for political advocacy under the guise of law enforcement activity. So did that happen here? That is where we are. I don't know, but I kind of doubt it. You know me, I have less than zero faith in the fidelity and abilities of our Federal agencies. I have no doubt at all the Obama admin would encourage the FBI to help his tribe. I have no doubt they would be willing. But after the election, using dubious info to try and take down a President KNOWING it was false? I have a hard time buying that one. Sounds like a Brad Thor novel. If they were pursuing the matter after the investigation I think they thought there was something there. Strictly my opinion there. 

When the whole thing hit the news Russia denied everything loudly... too loudly. It made the Trump Camp look worse but Russia is playing it's own game. Like Gromnir has expounded on at length their aim was likely to undermine faith in our electoral system. IMO they needn't have bothered. The DemocRATs and RATpublcans are doing a fine job of that all by themselves. The Mueller Report has since debunked the idea of Trump colluding with Russian intel. But it's no joke the Russians did try to play a role. I'm a little iffy on this on though You can't actually "steal" and election in the US. It's too decentralized. And I don't think hacking a private entity like the DNC is election tampering. It's just a plain old cyber crime. And besides. as O have said before, had the people who actually worked in the DNC exercised even a modicum of professionalism in their communications those leaked e-mails would have amounted to nothing.   

 

 

Edit: The FBI investigation did not begin with Steele. It was going on a year before that. IIRC Trump becoming a target was a result of the Steele Dossier. 

Edited May 28, 2019 by Guard Dog
Addendum

[Guard Dog]

This is a pretty good read from Ted Gup. The Washington Post had it yesterday. I read one of his books a while back. In short he wants to move to Great Britain because he does not recognize the US anymore. He seems to think the election of Trump represents a fundamental shift in the attitudes of the US. I would not encourage or discourage him or anyone else from any course of action. But it is an error to look at the outcome of any election as an indication of a change in American attitudes. As we have gone on at some length here about voters only had two realistic choices to be President in 2016. Both were deeply flawed and both unacceptable to a very, very large number of people. And even if that were not the case you cannot separate the  election of one candidate from the candidacy of the losing side. This person had as much to do with Trump winning as anyone did:

 

Trump is President today because more people found her unacceptable than they did him. She has been in political office for 16 years and in politics for thirty. You know what you are getting with her. It wasn't something good to most folks. Trump was a known name but he'd never held office. You didn't know he was going to be an impulsive dolt who has no idea what he is doing and couldn't find the truth if it were painted on the wall in front of him .But you KNEW Clinton was dishonest, mean-spirited, and most damning of all, obsessed with political power. You can't fault them for choosing door number two. Or door number one because they DIDN'T want the unknown but definitively crass and loud alternative. No matter who won in 2016 the 45th President was going to be a bad one. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ive-got-my-trump-card-will-i-use-it-to-leave-the-us/2019/05/27/eb347a1c-7d7c-11e9-8ede-f4abf521ef17_story.html?utm_term=.9124d00f9ff8 

[smjjames]

2 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

OK, the short strokes of a long story: In early 2016 the Clinton Campaign and the DNC hired a company called Fusion GPS for opposition research on Trump's camp. Fusion GPS used a former MI-6 agent named Christopher Steele to do the work. The Steele Dossier is the genesis of the whole Trump-Russia thing. He is the one who said Russia was helping Trump get elected and that Russian intel & the Trump Campaign were working together to win the election. After the election Steele and Fusion continued to research and send info to British and American intel. Now, Fusion does not work for free and the election was over so who is paying for this? 

The CIA didn't take it seriously because the Steele Dossier was unverifiable and is some respects, not credible. The FBI seems to have believed every word of it and they got warrants, wiretaps, and a full on investigation. That is pretty much what you would expect the FBI to do. Kinda why they are even a thing. You have heard the term "Crossfire Hurricane", and not the Rolling Stones song, that is it. Now, was this an investigation or a political witch hunt? I tend to think it was more the former. The FBI is not and has never been apolitical (nice dress there J Edgar). And some of it's agents and even directors have used the agency for political advocacy under the guise of law enforcement activity. So did that happen here? That is where we are. I don't know, but I kind of doubt it. You know me, I have less than zero faith in the fidelity and abilities of our Federal agencies. I have no doubt at all the Obama admin would encourage the FBI to help his tribe. I have no doubt they would be willing. But after the election, using dubious info to try and take down a President KNOWING it was false? I have a hard time buying that one. Sounds like a Brad Thor novel. If they were pursuing the matter after the investigation I think they thought there was something there. Strictly my opinion there. 

When the whole thing hit the news Russia denied everything loudly... too loudly. It made the Trump Camp look worse but Russia is playing it's own game. Like Gromnir has expounded on at length their aim was likely to undermine faith in our electoral system. IMO they needn't have bothered. The DemocRATs and RATpublcans are doing a fine job of that all by themselves. The Mueller Report has since debunked the idea of Trump colluding with Russian intel. But it's no joke the Russians did try to play a role. I'm a little iffy on this on though You can't actually "steal" and election in the US. It's too decentralized. And I don't think hacking a private entity like the DNC is election tampering. It's just a plain old cyber crime. And besides. as O have said before, had the people who actually worked in the DNC exercised even a modicum of professionalism in their communications those leaked e-mails would have amounted to nothing.   

 

 

Edit: The FBI investigation did not begin with Steele. It was going on a year before that. IIRC Trump becoming a target was a result of the Steele Dossier. 

The fact that our elections are so decentralized is likely the reason why they didn't try to go that route and do the much easier route of simply sowing chaos over social media. That isn't vote tampering in the strictest definition, but it's still meddling. There are also reports of two Florida counties getting hacked (the extent wasn't revealed though), but Florida is already messy enough without someone trying to hack into elections there.

As for the FBI being non-political, yeah, they're supposed to be, but kind of difficult to avoid looking political when they got the Clinton investigation thrusted on them, and in the middle of an election no less. Comey did screw things up by deviating from the protocol and I've read articles saying that if he had stuck to protocol, whatever the political backlash may have been, he'd have been in less trouble than he was. The reason the FBI is in a mess is because it got forced into politics.

What (well, the way they were doing it anyway, not gonna get into conspiracy theories) Strzok and Paige did was also dumb (the using the work phones to hide their relationship aside) and it's reasonable to wonder where the oversight was on that.

I've never heard of the specific term Crossfire Hurricane, but I get the visual.

[HoonDing]

" You didn't know he was going to be an impulsive dolt who has no idea what he is doing and couldn't find the truth if it were painted on the wall in front of him . "

uh-huh

[Chilloutman]

5 hours ago, ktchong said:

Also, Steven Crowder  is being funded by Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed Bin Salman.  It was initially reported by several "liberal" channels, and he denied and lied about it at first, before he finally admitted and mentioned it on his show.

I am pretty sure it was a joke? No idea why would Saudis have any interest in his show

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

3 hours ago, Guard Dog said:

Trump is President today because more people found her unacceptable than they did him. 

Hilldawg got more votes than lil donny by about 3 million. And when you figure that about 40% of the voting eligible population chose to vote for no one, the trump was third place in the race.

[rjshae]

I've learned to enjoy Trump's overseas trips. While he's busy having his ego stroked by foreign dignitaries, the national news almost returns to normal again. I.e. there's less hate to report.

[Malcador]

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/05/us-department-of-energy-is-now-referring-to-fossil-fuels-as-freedom-gas/

 

[injurai]

36 minutes ago, Malcador said:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/05/us-department-of-energy-is-now-referring-to-fossil-fuels-as-freedom-gas/

 

And I thought freedom fries was bad

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

So I guess this world was the dystopian alternate reality all along.

[smjjames]

1 hour ago, injurai said:

And I thought freedom fries was bad

At least the freedom fries thing wasn't part of some official policy making.... Looks like this one was from Rick Perry making a joke or something and then other people taking it way more seriously than it should have been.

We all know how much Trump hates McCain, but this is really taking it to the next level.... (The Guardian liveblog entry) https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2019/may/29/trump-news-today-live-roy-moore-alabama-mueller-democrats-2020-latest-updates?page=with:block-5cef1bae8f08ad67f1a83a37#block-5cef1bae8f08ad67f1a83a37 the WH is making sure that a ship with the name USS John McCain (which could be named after his dad... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_S._McCain_Jr.) out of sight when Trump visited Japan. I'd have straight up said no to that because it's as BS as it sounds like.

[rjshae]

2 hours ago, KaineParker said:

So I guess this world was the dystopian alternate reality all along.

Yes, we're living in the alternative reality computer simulation where Trump becomes President. They want to find out what would have happened.

[teknoman2]

the only reality of politics is that the stupidity of people is as infinite as the universe. we, unfortunately, get the government we deserve.

here in greece we currently have 2 major parties and many smaller. one of the 2 has been very small until 2012 when a previous major party started collapsing and it's voters moved to it, making it win the 2015 elections. the other had been in power for 26 of the last 50 years and is still intact. that party was directly responsible for bankrupting greece in 2009, they further collapsed the economy in 2013 in an epic failed attempt to clear part of the debt, half it's members are currently on trial or under investigation for corruption, bribery, embezzlement and so on, it has gone bankrupt 5 times and every time the debt was "mysteriously" put on hold and cleared as soon as it won an election, it is currently bankrupt yet it somehow has the funds to advertise it's members non stop, it's current leader owns a bankrupt business that "mysteriously" stays open with no bank asking for it's money back, in the last term as a minister he fired 40% of state employees leaving all agencies crippled, he promises 12 hours of work a day for 7 days a week with lower wages, he promises to fire even more people and raise taxes, to dismantles the universal healthcare system and make all healthcare private and many more stuff like that... and people voted for this party in the EU representative's election because "the current prime minister is an atheist and didn't swear on the bible when he got into office"

Edited May 30, 2019 by teknoman2

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, teknoman2 said:

the only reality of politics is that the stupidity of people is as infinite as the universe. we, unfortunately, get the government we deserve.

, he promises 12 hours of work a day for 7 days a week with lower wages, " 

Whats wrong with that, it sounds like a good plan around  work ethos to achieve results and optimize profitability ? I wish we could do that in my country but workers have these things called " workers rights "  and we have these damn pesky "  labor laws "  which prohibit us from doing this 

[213374U]

15 hours ago, Malcador said:

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/05/us-department-of-energy-is-now-referring-to-fossil-fuels-as-freedom-gas/

 

freedom isnt free

[Guard Dog]

There is no one on this board who thinks less of Trump than I do. But I am so freaking glad he won this election. This is one big reason why: https://reason.com/2019/05/29/dissenting-from-a-decision-blocking-a-retaliatory-arrest-claim-neil-gorsuch-notes-that-almost-anyone-can-be-arrested-for-something/

The "good guys" might have lost this one but Goresuch was on the right side. Garland, I seriously doubt he would be.  Presidents come and go, but judges can f--k you over for a generation or more. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by Guard Dog

[Guard Dog]

Every President has a guy who tried to put a spin on stupid things Presidents say (or tweet in this case). Dunno who it is for Trump but he's got his work cut out for him after this one!

 

[Gromnir]

7 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

There is no one on this board who thinks less of Trump than I do. But I am so freaking glad he won this election. This is one big reason why: https://reason.com/2019/05/29/dissenting-from-a-decision-blocking-a-retaliatory-arrest-claim-neil-gorsuch-notes-that-almost-anyone-can-be-arrested-for-something/

am not sure if gd read the whole article.  ginsburg and sotomayor also dissented. kavanaugh did not.  trump got you a net zero insofar as cop deference. 

merrick garland, the guy who woulda' been appointed if not for mitch's efforts in the senate to delay 'til after elections, is having a first and fourth amendment record similar to scalia and gorsuch, with the exception o' campaign finance issues. citizens united woulda' been a dead man walking if garland had been appointed. have stated previous how while am ambivalent 'bout the law in citizens united,  the death o' campaign finance limits were a loss for all americans. 

regardless, with garland and some other clinton appointee, you woulda' been far more likely to have gotten  at least a split decision on the retaliatory arrest case. you are actual making an argument for clinton election w/o realizing.

however, in spirit o' full disclosure, garland might qualify as gd's personal gun control antichrist. is few appellate judges who has a record less appealing to nra. heck, were his court ruling which resulted in heller going to the Court in the first place. the biggest problem for nra regarding garland is he actual knows his history and has been more textual than the so-called textualists on the Court. in garland's hands, the second amendment protects state militias and is more likely to apply to weapons such as the ar-15 than handguns, seeing as a militia member would be more likely to reasonable arm himself with the ar-15 than a saturday night special.

regardless, looks like a win one and lose one scenario for gd. trump win were not resulting in a gain for gd on  the issue o' retaliatory prosecutions stemming from free speech claims. 

HA! Good Fun!

[Guard Dog]

Hey you've seen me say nice things about Ginsburg as a consistent 1st Am champion and Sotomayor as a consistent 4th Am champion. They are both much less reliable on other things. As much as I respect Thomas on 2nd, 5th, 10th, & 14th Am issues I am far from with him 100% of the time. I'm not going to find agreement with the reasoning of any of them all the time. But with Goresuch more than the others I find myself saying "that's right!". Also Kagan and Breyer are both "liberal" (what does that word even mean anymore) and found against the plaintiff. Of course has Kagan ever found against a government authority on anything other than the "muslim ban" thing?  Not that I can remember

Edited May 30, 2019 by Guard Dog

[Guard Dog]

17 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

am not sure if gd read the whole article.  ginsburg and sotomayor also dissented. kavanaugh did not.  trump got you a net zero insofar as cop deference. 

merrick garland, the guy who woulda' been appointed if not for mitch's efforts in the senate to delay 'til after elections, is having a first and fourth amendment record similar to scalia and gorsuch, with the exception o' campaign finance issues. citizens united woulda' been a dead man walking if garland had been appointed. have stated previous how while am ambivalent 'bout the law in citizens united,  the death o' campaign finance limits were a loss for all americans. 

regardless, with garland and some other clinton appointee, you woulda' been far more likely to have gotten  at least a split decision on the retaliatory arrest case. you are actual making an argument for clinton election w/o realizing.

however, in spirit o' full disclosure, garland might qualify as gd's personal gun control antichrist. is few appellate judges who has a record less appealing to nra. heck, were his court ruling which resulted in heller going to the Court in the first place. the biggest problem for nra regarding garland is he actual knows his history and has been more textual than the so-called textualists on the Court. in garland's hands, the second amendment protects state militias and is more likely to apply to weapons such as the ar-15 than handguns, seeing as a militia member would be more likely to reasonable arm himself with the ar-15 than a saturday night special.

regardless, looks like a win one and lose one scenario for gd. trump win were not resulting in a gain for gd on  the issue o' retaliatory prosecutions stemming from free speech claims. 

HA! Good Fun!

There is no way to know where Garland would have come down on this or anything. But my best guess he is one who would have sided with LE 9 times out of 10. Just a guess though. As for you point on US vs Miller and AR-15's being more likely to be protected I beat you to it: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/109120-politics-and-statesmenship-a-forum-special-report/?do=findComment&comment=2156851

 

Quote

• This one is the most ironic IMO. He laments the court did not find for the District of Columbia in deference to the precedent set in United States vs Miller. In that case the court decided a sawed off shotgun is illegal because the government CAN ban weapons that have no use in a "well regulated militia". The irony is an AR-15 is a weapon appropriate for militia use. As well as the many AK variants out there. Had he gotten his way is would be even harder to ban the weapons people seem to want banned the most. In the majority decision on Heller there is more wiggle room for legislative restrictions (short of prohibition) than there might have been if he actually swayed Kennedy or Thomas to his way of thinking. 

 

[Gromnir]

12 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Hey you've seen me say nice things about Ginsburg as a consistent 1st Am champion and Sotomayor as a consistent 4th Am champion. They are both much less reliable on other things. As much as I respect Thomas on 2nd, 5th, 10th, & 14th Am issues I am far from with him 100% of the time. I'm not going to find agreement with the reasoning of any of them all the time. But with Goresuch more than the others I find myself saying "that's right!" 

am pretty sure we can find issues you are not in agreement with gorsuch; is an almost certainty given your libertarian pov. assisted suicide. ability to choose when and how to die? gorsuch literal wrote book on why prohibitions on assisted suicide should be maintained. 

just one example. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps and while there is no way to be certain o' knowing how garland would decide a first amendment or fourth amendment case, he gots a long record o' such decisions. dismiss such i favor o' reflexive categorization? weak.

Edited May 30, 2019 by Gromnir

[Guard Dog]

Just now, Gromnir said:

am pretty sure we can find issues you are not in agreement with gorsuch; is an almost certainty given your libertarian pov. assisted suicide. ability to choose when and how to die? gorsuch literal wrote book on why prohibitions on assisted suicide should be maintained. 

just one example. 

HA! Good Fun!

Of course. Mostly certainly isn't all the time. I seriously doubt there has been one you agree with more than 75% of the time in all the years you've studied them.

[Gromnir]

3 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Of course. Mostly certainly isn't all the time. I seriously doubt there has been one you agree with more than 75% of the time in all the years you've studied them.

fyi, the vast majority o' Court decisions is actual unanimous or near unanimous; but those cases get little press.  am suspecting in terms o' raw numbers, we agree with all Justices at least 75% o' the time. even so, while we might quibble on the percentage a bit, it is true there ain't any Justice with whom we is complete aligning. such a recognition is precise why we says it is more important to be getting competent Justices who have requisite character to sit on the bench.

scalia got unanimous senate approval. unanimous. can you imagine such happening today? am perhaps too old, but am from an era when ability and character were bipartisan requisites for a Court appointee.

HA! Good Fun!