Theorycrafting Thoughts On New Classes (Patch 4.0 Beta)

[Gromnir]

I'm still having a hard time deciding between Helwalker and Shattered Pillar to pair with Blood Mage. The former gets on-demand wounds and might (as well as rooting pain procs), but may be hard to keep alive in the thick of melee. SP doesn't benefit explicitly from Blood Sacrifice when it comes to wound generation, but SP already has high wound generation in a Sage build.

 

hmmmm.

 

personal we prefer helwalker for contemplative and shattered pillar for sage.  the might bonuses is nice for sages, but they is more significant for contemplative's heals.  regardless, the fears regarding keeping a helwalker + _________ alive is negligible once you reach mid levels, though helwaker builds probable require more attention than is possible if you like to let ai control your party. it is best to have a pure priest in your party if you have a helwalker + _________, but ain't critical. regardless, a sage has incredible defensive buffs available which even on potd will make your midlevel helwaker easy to keep alive as long as you do not try and tank with him/her. 

 

keep in mind, sceptres is much underrated weapons, seeing as how they is a ranged weapon which is able to do crush damage and have high penetration.  sceptres also is ideal helwalker weapons, at least for early levels.  so you won't need be exposing self to lethal melee charlie fox situations unless you choose to.  

 

...

 

hesitate to mention this, but whatever.  thanks to xp awards from deadfire ship combat, you may avoid any helwalker awkwardness by skipping the tough levels.  yeah, you probable still need do port maje as primarily a sceptre wielding sage, but immediate after you acquire a ship, you are able to start doing ship combat and ship bounties.  so do nothing but ship combat and ship bounties 'til you exhaust such possibilities.  11th level.  clear deadfire waters o' targets (which will be harder to do in 4.0 and beyond) and you will be into mid levels with a broad catalog o' defensive and offensive spells.  difficulty slider does not affect ship-to-ship combat, so your low level party may use sl00p or dhow to sink the toughest junks and galleons available even in potd.  helwalker sage gameplay might be difficult until you get a nice assortment o' the good defensive and offensive spells to supplement already noteworthy monk survivability and lethality, but you are able to effective skip difficult gameplay by exhausting ship-to-ship combat. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Franknstein]

So far Pernicious Cloud is the only ability I found that can (crit) damage charmed enemies without flipping their alliance back to hostile. A problem is that you will also hit your party members OR will have to suffer Cowardice (since Pern. Cloud is centered on the rogue). 

 

 

So, how does it work? If the targets are charmed, won't they shut off the Cowardice?

Edited December 3, 2018 by Franknstein

[Boeroer]

Maybe. As I said I didn't check that yet.

[Boeroer]

personal we prefer helwalker for contemplative and shattered pillar for sage.

I never choose Shattered Pillar for Sage because the wound generation through Alacrity doesn't work then.

[Anoregon]

 

personal we prefer helwalker for contemplative and shattered pillar for sage.

I never choose Shattered Pillar for Sage because the wound generation through Alacrity doesn't work then.

 

 

I know there was a time when Pillar Sages could get crazy wound generation through AoE effects (like citzal spirit lance) but I believe those have sense been nerfed to only grant wounds from damage on the primary target? If that's the case then yeah, you are giving up a lot of potential wound generation on a Blood Mage Sage.

 

Also, as you mentioned Alacrity - how does that stack with Swift Strikes from the monk side?

Edited December 3, 2018 by Anoregon

[Boeroer]

Shattered Pillars can still generate wounds with the AoE damage of Spirit Lance as long as they only use auto-attacks and no attack abilities with it.

[thelee]

I think the most interesting picks are Writ of War and Writ of Sorcery. Pretty sure Helm of the White Void and the +10 Accuracy it gives to checks on inflicting Body/Mind Afflictions will help here. Shutting down all enemy spellcasters for 30+ seconds using a high Int character would really make some fights go smoother. Writ of Mending feels a bit underwhelming for a PL9 except an AoE Enfeeble is pretty rare and could be comboed with other classes to really ensure things stay debuffed.

 

Enfeebled is an extremely powerful effect. No enemy healing and an instant +50% to all debuffs (basically like a hostile Salvation of Time), current and future, is nothing to sniff at. There's a reason why right now player access is extremely rare (pretty much just the rogue toxic strike upgrade).

 

Both Writ of War and Writ of Sorcery will be able to shut down stuff that Frightened couldn't shutdown.

 

Writ of Engagement is also potentially very good survival spell for squishies. Normally, if an enemy has a might inspiration, it cancels out the effect of of any might affliction (which all already disable engagement). However, Writ of Engagement spins out the "no engagement" into its own effect, so there'll be no way for an enemy to interact with it using inspirations (similar to how barbarian Wild Sprint separates out the "cannot be engaged" from tier 2 dex inspiration making it potentially more powerful and resilient than an otherwise-equivalent tier 3 Swift).

 

What's Woedica's spiritual weapon? And their version of incarnate? anyone know?

 

I'm already planning my Woedica run.

[brasilgringo]

 

 

What's Woedica's spiritual weapon? And their version of incarnate? anyone know?

 

I'm already planning my Woedica run.

 

It's fists and as far as I can tell, it still stacks/scales with Monk fists.  There were some comments a while back that only the primary fist (not 2nd fist) were getting the weapon bonus, but it's still pretty good.  Doesn't feel as OP as people say. 

[Boeroer]

That's because you haven't leveled enough I think.

 

The summoned fists scale with char level while at the same time Transcendent Suffering or Monastic Unarmed Training scales with Power Level.

 

This gives the Woedica Fists + Transcendent Suffering basically double the ACC bonus and double the dmg bonus - which works extremely well with the raw lash. 

 

As comparison: normally the "base" of Transcendent Suffering, the monk's fists, don't scale at all during the game and still nobody ever comlained that monk's fists with Transcendent Sufferung were weak...

Edited December 3, 2018 by Boeroer

[thelee]

That's because you haven't leveled enough I think.

 

The summoned fists scale with char level while at the same time Transcendent Suffering or Monastic Unarmed Training scales with Power Level.

 

This gives the Woedica Fists + Transcendent Suffering basically double the ACC bonus and double the dmg bonus - which works extremely well with the raw lash. 

 

As comparison: normally the "base" of Transcendent Suffering, the monk's fists, don't scale at all during the game and still nobody ever comlained that monk's fists with Transcendent Sufferung were weak...

 

wait wait wait. so woedica fists actually count as fists?

 

So a multiclass priest/monk at level 20 with +1 PL from food or Acute will get legendary scaling twice???

 

that seems broken. it's better than just normal monk, in fact.

Edited December 3, 2018 by thelee

[Boeroer]

That was the case when they were NPCs only, yes. I haven't tested the new iteration yet. But if people say the summoned fists still profit from Transcendent Suffering...

[AndreaColombo]

Best solution would be to make the code pick the most advantageous scaling at any given level/PL combination—which obviously is not going to happen.

[Boeroer]

Just did a quick test and it's still double-scaling:

 

[Gromnir]

 

That's because you haven't leveled enough I think.

 

The summoned fists scale with char level while at the same time Transcendent Suffering or Monastic Unarmed Training scales with Power Level.

 

This gives the Woedica Fists + Transcendent Suffering basically double the ACC bonus and double the dmg bonus - which works extremely well with the raw lash. 

 

As comparison: normally the "base" of Transcendent Suffering, the monk's fists, don't scale at all during the game and still nobody ever comlained that monk's fists with Transcendent Sufferung were weak...

 

wait wait wait. so woedica fists actually count as fists?

 

So a multiclass priest/monk at level 20 with +1 PL from food or Acute will get legendary scaling twice???

 

that seems broken. it's better than just normal monk, in fact.

 

we keep saying  how the woedica spiritual weapon + transcendent suffering schtick is cheese, and we noted earlier in this thread how such were working in 4.0,  nevertheless, there has been little resistance from boardies on this matter.   the thing is, the woedica priest spells is also highly potent.  is not as if woedica priest got underpowered spells and need a character development break or two to reach parity with other priests.  take your three-cheese grilled cheese sandwich, then cover it in cheese whiz and deep fry it and serve it as part o' fondue. 

 

maybe we need report as a bug, 'cause am doubting developers read our posts on this matter.

 

 

Shattered Pillars can still generate wounds with the AoE damage of Spirit Lance as long as they only use auto-attacks and no attack abilities with it.

 

in part 'cause o' stuff such as spirit lance, we have never had an issue with generating wounds as a shattered pillar sage.  nalpazca don't appeal to our personal aesthetic and helwalker benefits and malus synergize so much better as contemplative. shattered pillar and vanilla is both offering potent sage builds.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Frak]

The charmed enemies don't count as an ally for cowardice?

 

Logically they should disable Cowardice when near. 

The fact that "Roguish Charm" is a melee range ability supports this design.

[Ophiuchus]

I haven't had a whole lot of time to test all the subclasses but I've been enjoying The Steel Garrote/Trickster (Holy Slayer) to level nine. The combination plays well with afflictions, adding damage and healing over time, and has superb defense and mobility. I like Garrote a lot on paper but since it targets Fortitude, I modded the cost down to one Zeal; it feels right. My only qualm so far with the build is the awkwardness in progression: since other Paladin orders get an upgraded version of a default ability for free, having to buy both FoD and Sworn Enemy feels weird; it'll all get smoothed over later on, of course.

I'm mostly excited for this build from an RP/aesthetic position since I plan to play him as a Lawful Evil bounty hunter type: combining lock down effects with damage over time.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Ophiuchus

[VeritasWaits]

I have some questions about Tactitian. The ability seems straightforward at first glance, but Brilliant is so rare in the current version (I started playing after it was patched out of Chanter and such) that I'm not terribly familiar with its nuances.

 

I get how it works with resource pool classes (rogue, barbarian, etc), but what about the caster classes? Do you regen a single spell level every six seconds? If so, is it the lowest level, highest, random, or what? Or is it one of every spell level you have available? That seems crazy, but the first version feels underwhelming.

 

And what about the resource pool classes? I'm assuming monks would regen mortification but not wounds, but do Ciphers regen focus, and if so how much? What about Chanter phrases?

 

I'm really interested in a Tactitian War Caller or Psyblade, but if Brilliant only affects half the multiclass then that's a wash. Swashbuckler seems strong, especially if you go Trickster for the defense and CC spells to use all that regenerating guile on. Fun times!

Edited December 4, 2018 by VeritasWaits

[AndreaColombo]

It restores 1 Wiz/Druid/Priest spell for each level. Not sure how it interacts with Focus or Phrases. Monks do indeed regenerate Mortification and not Wounds.

[Takkik]

wait brilliant restore 1 spell for each level? I though it was a random one like blood sacrifice (long time I haven't done a playthrough). That confort me the blood mage could get a little more love, like removing the randomness or add some Oomph in raw power to compensate the loose of empowering at later levels.

[Boeroer]

Yes. 1 Spell use per spell tier per 6 seconds. While Fighters gain 1 Discipline...

 

I already suggested to alter the effects of Brilliant based on the resource pool (regain spells less frequently, for example every 20s) but so far it's still this imbalanced mess.

[InsaneCommander]

wait brilliant restore 1 spell for each level? I though it was a random one like blood sacrifice (long time I haven't done a playthrough). That confort me the blood mage could get a little more love, like removing the randomness or add some Oomph in raw power to compensate the loose of empowering at later levels.

 

I could swear it was like this.

[AndreaColombo]

Yes. 1 Spell use per spell tier per 6 seconds. While Fighters gain 1 Discipline...

 

I already suggested to alter the effects of Brilliant based on the resource pool (regain spells less frequently, for example every 20s) but so far it's still this imbalanced mess.

What do you have against fun?

 

I already had to mod it back to 3s; don’t make me work extra for what I want LOL

[Takkik]

Yes. 1 Spell use per spell tier per 6 seconds. While Fighters gain 1 Discipline...

 

I already suggested to alter the effects of Brilliant based on the resource pool (regain spells less frequently, for example every 20s) but so far it's still this imbalanced mess.

 

Or make it restore half martial resource since often brilliant is on only for 1-2 ticks. But yeah, brilliant will never be balanced I think (The inspiration system itself isn't).

 

I always though they should have build all classes around resource generation instead of managing a small pool of resource (and make each abilities compete each other when it come to cost effective). That one of the thing I like about Diablo3 and chanter/monk/cipher. And it scale with the lengh of a fight. You never run out of resource, so you can design long encounters.

[Verde]

Why not just run a Mindstalker if you want a Rogue charmer? Sounds like a ton of hoops to jump through for the Debonair. At least for now.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Verde

[Sergeant Arch Dornan]

Is is just me or is a Tactician very... exploitable?

 

Tactician/Beckoner with Grave Calling (foe-only Chillfog on vessel kill)?

 

Tactician/Cipher with Phantom Foes

 

Tactician/Wizard with Slicken.

 

And so on...

Tactician with crossbow or arbalest modal. Just shoot and regain discipline.