Finally some sales evidence

[Boeroer]

If half of the players hated PoE, then where do the good user reviews come from?

[Gfted1]

...then where do the good user reviews come from?

Ive wondered that about reviews in general. I cant find it anymore but there used to be a chart that showed the percentages of players that reach milestones in a game. It was really interesting to me to see how few people finish a game, or even reach chapter two! I imagine the same occurs across all genre of games so where do reviews come from? It must be the very small percentages of players that become invested in the game?

[frogmoth]

I'm not saying POE is bad game. Just sucked too hard because it was burden to play, and was lackluster in story&xp. Let me put it this way: You eat at MacDonalds, from time to time. Food is tasteful, place is most clean & it has smooth xp. But bad publicity in food quality & underpaid staff don't make it very popular choice - at least not as it used to be.

 

We could say half of users hated POE, especially when hoping for BG3 and getting unpolished game & lackluster game.

 

Are you comparing PoE I to McDonald's? If you really have to make this comparison, you have to admit that Deadfire is a lot closer in that regard than the first game.

PoE I had ambition and inspiration in some areas where Deadfire, although a lot more polished, has serious flaws. The storyline has it's problems, but i don't really understand why people are ****ting on it that much. For me at least the reveal with the gods was a pleasent surprise and a good twist. In Deadfire they barely carried it over (although i have to admit that i haven't finished the game yet). Furthermore, the game had a very consistent tone and an engrossing mood because of that, an aspect which Deadfire lacks.

[Grimo88]

 

I'm not saying POE is bad game. Just sucked too hard because it was burden to play, and was lackluster in story&xp. Let me put it this way: You eat at MacDonalds, from time to time. Food is tasteful, place is most clean & it has smooth xp. But bad publicity in food quality & underpaid staff don't make it very popular choice - at least not as it used to be.

 

We could say half of users hated POE, especially when hoping for BG3 and getting unpolished game & lackluster game.

 

Are you comparing PoE I to McDonald's? If you really have to make this comparison, you have to admit that Deadfire is a lot closer in that regard than the first game.

PoE I had ambition and inspiration in some areas where Deadfire, although a lot more polished, has serious flaws. The storyline has it's problems, but i don't really understand why people are ****ting on it that much. For me at least the reveal with the gods was a pleasent surprise and a good twist. In Deadfire they barely carried it over (although i have to admit that i haven't finished the game yet). Furthermore, the game had a very consistent tone and an engrossing mood because of that, an aspect which Deadfire lacks.

Maybe I’m old but I’m just so bemused and exhausted by the huge amount of negativity I’ve found both here and the poe subreddit regarding the series. It really is just bizarre - if people hate it so vehemently why are they here? I despise the CoD franchise but I’ve never even thought of even browsing their forums.

 

It really seems like gaming culture - even in this tiny little nostalgia niche - just invites extreme division. Maybe I’m wearing rose tinted glasses but I don’t remember seeing this behaviour on Sorcerer’s Place or Spellhold back in the day. The games have problems but so did BG. And the constant bitching about difficulty - did anyone actually play BG2? Many fights were trivialised by spells and magic items.

 

Maybe this relentless negatively affected sales? How many people were turned off the moment they looked at a forum?

[Grimo88]

 

I'm not saying POE is bad game. Just sucked too hard because it was burden to play, and was lackluster in story&xp. Let me put it this way: You eat at MacDonalds, from time to time. Food is tasteful, place is most clean & it has smooth xp. But bad publicity in food quality & underpaid staff don't make it very popular choice - at least not as it used to be.

 

We could say half of users hated POE, especially when hoping for BG3 and getting unpolished game & lackluster game.

 

Are you comparing PoE I to McDonald's? If you really have to make this comparison, you have to admit that Deadfire is a lot closer in that regard than the first game.

PoE I had ambition and inspiration in some areas where Deadfire, although a lot more polished, has serious flaws. The storyline has it's problems, but i don't really understand why people are ****ting on it that much. For me at least the reveal with the gods was a pleasent surprise and a good twist. In Deadfire they barely carried it over (although i have to admit that i haven't finished the game yet). Furthermore, the game had a very consistent tone and an engrossing mood because of that, an aspect which Deadfire lacks.

Maybe I’m old but I’m just so bemused and exhausted by the huge amount of negativity I’ve found both here and the poe subreddit regarding the series. It really is just bizarre - if people hate it so vehemently why are they here? I despise the CoD franchise but I’ve never even thought of even browsing their forums.

 

It really seems like gaming culture - even in this tiny little nostalgia niche - just invites extreme division. Maybe I’m wearing rose tinted glasses but I don’t remember seeing this behaviour on Sorcerer’s Place or Spellhold back in the day. The games have problems but so did BG. And the constant bitching about difficulty - did anyone actually play BG2? Many fights were trivialised by spells and magic items.

 

Maybe this relentless negatively affected sales? How many people were turned off the moment they looked at a forum?

[InsaneCommander]

It really is just bizarre - if people hate it so vehemently why are they here?

 

That is a very good question. When I don't like something I just move on and spend my time somewhere else.

 

Come to think about it, I actually envy these people. They must have a lot of free time. And there are suspicions that at least one of them even created multiple accounts to spend even more time complaining.

[injurai]

 

Interesting quote from Josh

 

I would say that the original Pillars review numbers were higher than the game merited, but it's true that it's the highest-rated (on Metacritic) Obsidian game. The user reviews on MC aren't far behind. It was for that reason that much of my focus on Deadfire was on refining (or so I thought) things that were heavily criticized on the original game. The press reviews of Deadfire generally said that the sequel was an improvement on the original in most, if not every, way -- which isn't reflected in the final review scores, but that's a common problem that was exacerbated by the original Pillars reviewing a bit higher than it should have. The user scores are lower, but we've worked hard to try to address recurring / common complaints as quickly as possible.

 

I understand that these types of games aren't for everyone, but I still believe that the core gameplay is essentially the same in Deadfire and that we did improve on the original. Is the story worse than in the first one? I can understand the criticisms of it, but by whatever margin Deadfire's story or storytelling may be worse than Pillars, I don't think that margin is so great to explain a large difference in sales.

 

 

No doubt the team improved on a lot. I think it's some of the new mechanics that now feel a bit half-baked. I think the tone of the first game was also a strong point that was lost. Often games are reviewed on what's beyond or short of the sum of the parts.

[frogmoth]

PoE I had ambition and inspiration in some areas where Deadfire, although a lot more polished, has serious flaws. The storyline has it's problems, but i don't really understand why people are ****ting on it that much. For me at least the reveal with the gods was a pleasent surprise and a good twist. In Deadfire they barely carried it over (although i have to admit that i haven't finished the game yet). Furthermore, the game had a very consistent tone and an engrossing mood because of that, an aspect which Deadfire lacks

Maybe I’m old but I’m just so bemused and exhausted by the huge amount of negativity I’ve found both here and the poe subreddit regarding the series. It really is just bizarre - if people hate it so vehemently why are they here? I despise the CoD franchise but I’ve never even thought of even browsing their forums.

 

It really seems like gaming culture - even in this tiny little nostalgia niche - just invites extreme division. Maybe I’m wearing rose tinted glasses but I don’t remember seeing this behaviour on Sorcerer’s Place or Spellhold back in the day. The games have problems but so did BG. And the constant bitching about difficulty - did anyone actually play BG2? Many fights were trivialised by spells and magic items.

 

Maybe this relentless negatively affected sales? How many people were turned off the moment they looked at a forum?

 

I'm with you on this to an extent. But you have to admit that promising to create a game in a certain vein (in this case: the old IE-classics) naturally leads to a specific level of scrutiny. The problem especially of Deadfire seems to be that i doesn't really know what it wants to be: A game in the style of the IE-games or a more casual game that aims for a wider audience? Games like Pathfinder: Kingmaker show, despite of the mediocre critical reception, that there is a huge fanbase for this type of game with a specific, more hardcore-oriented, design. This doesn't mean that i don't like Deadfire (not by a long shot), but i can easily point out which parts of the game aren't my cup of tea and seem superfluous/redundant from the design perspective.

Maybe there are people out there that want a tighter, more "no-nonsense" approach towards designing this type of game?

Edited November 10, 2018 by frogmoth

[Grimo88]

 

 

Interesting quote from Josh

 

I would say that the original Pillars review numbers were higher than the game merited, but it's true that it's the highest-rated (on Metacritic) Obsidian game. The user reviews on MC aren't far behind. It was for that reason that much of my focus on Deadfire was on refining (or so I thought) things that were heavily criticized on the original game. The press reviews of Deadfire generally said that the sequel was an improvement on the original in most, if not every, way -- which isn't reflected in the final review scores, but that's a common problem that was exacerbated by the original Pillars reviewing a bit higher than it should have. The user scores are lower, but we've worked hard to try to address recurring / common complaints as quickly as possible.

 

I understand that these types of games aren't for everyone, but I still believe that the core gameplay is essentially the same in Deadfire and that we did improve on the original. Is the story worse than in the first one? I can understand the criticisms of it, but by whatever margin Deadfire's story or storytelling may be worse than Pillars, I don't think that margin is so great to explain a large difference in sales.

No doubt the team improved on a lot. I think it's some of the new mechanics that now feel a bit half-baked. I think the tone of the first game was also a strong point that was lost. Often games are reviewed on what's beyond or short of the sum of the parts.

For sure - the game is not beyond criticism. But the extent of the vitriol really takes me aback. We’re a minority in a market that’s constantly pushing small games with niche mechanics into the margins. We should be more supportive of the companies making these games short of them being unplayable trash. Obsidian have already given more support to this game that apparently flopped than any AAA studio has in the last decade. They deserve our goodwill and support in return.

 

The thing we have to remember is there is no ivory tower with these small companies - some devs know us by our handles. We’re a tight-knit community, not just anonymous consumers.

[Purudaya]

 

But I think they should avoid some pseudo-philosophy thing like "what is a god ?".

 This. With a big emphasis on "pseudo". I really like the philosophic aspects, but if its really logic philosophy and not the kind of philosophy that are more emotional or some times even poetry with no logic meaning. I really disliked this also on Torment, i was doubting about whether i wanted to play it or do other things and the initial question "What does one life matter?" and especially the answers take away my desires of playing it.

 

 

I don't want to veer too off-topic, but logic philosophy =/= most or "real" philosophy. Axiology, Epistemology, and Metaphysics all at various points explore the value, nature, and/or experience of human existence and are by no means pseudo fields. Questions about ethics and value can't be fully solved by logic alone as they deal with subjective premises, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't ask them or that the answers they yield don't have value.

 

As for the sales, I know that tyranny picked up quite a bit through word of mouth after the initial disappointment for Paradox, eventually reaching ~500k. I have a hard time seeing Deadfire underperforming Tyranny by half, so hopefully the numbers will crunch right in the end (maybe after console sales/all DLCs are released). That said: even if it does turn out to fall short of financial targets, it doesn't necessarily spell the end for the IP - it may just mean that future games will see a change in approach (whether re: features, marketing, funding, or some combination of the three).

Edited November 10, 2018 by Purudaya

[Grimo88]

 

Interesting quote from Josh

 

I would say that the original Pillars review numbers were higher than the game merited, but it's true that it's the highest-rated (on Metacritic) Obsidian game. The user reviews on MC aren't far behind. It was for that reason that much of my focus on Deadfire was on refining (or so I thought) things that were heavily criticized on the original game. The press reviews of Deadfire generally said that the sequel was an improvement on the original in most, if not every, way -- which isn't reflected in the final review scores, but that's a common problem that was exacerbated by the original Pillars reviewing a bit higher than it should have. The user scores are lower, but we've worked hard to try to address recurring / common complaints as quickly as possible.

 

I understand that these types of games aren't for everyone, but I still believe that the core gameplay is essentially the same in Deadfire and that we did improve on the original. Is the story worse than in the first one? I can understand the criticisms of it, but by whatever margin Deadfire's story or storytelling may be worse than Pillars, I don't think that margin is so great to explain a large difference in sales.

No doubt the team improved on a lot. I think it's some of the new mechanics that now feel a bit half-baked. I think the tone of the first game was also a strong point that was lost. Often games are reviewed on what's beyond or short of the sum of the parts.

For sure - the game is not beyond criticism. But the extent of the vitriol really takes me aback. We’re a minority in a market that’s constantly pushing small games with niche mechanics into the margins. We should be more supportive of the companies making these games short of them being unplayable trash. Obsidian have already given more support to this game that apparently flopped than any AAA studio has given to profitable ones in the last decade. They deserve our goodwill and support in return.

 

The thing we have to remember is there is no ivory tower with these small companies - some devs even know us by our handles. We’re a tight-knit community, not just anonymous consumers.

 

I also think Avellone’s behaviour is not helping. He should understand that this will only serve to divide the communities and ultimately hurt the devs.

 

Edit: I have no idea how I double posted.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Grimo88

[Zoraptor]

Deadfire and Tyranny I think both have an audience which is a... difficult one, in a world where blockbuster first weeks sales mean a lot. PoE/ Tyranny and games of their type require a decent amount of patience and attention to play, and the audience for that sort of game tends to themselves be more patient. PoE1 had a lot of hype around it as a kickstarter and a new beginning etc, the latter two nowhere near as much. And since the audience is more patient I'd readily believe that much of that audience is willing to either wait for a sale and especially wait until they will actually have the time to play the game before buying it.

 

But also, to be honest, I found PoE1 to be turgid. Not that bad, also not that good, but just unnecessarily bloated in just about every respect and in the end a bit of a chore (albeit WM was consistently better). PoE2 on the other hand I genuinely liked, but if I went solely by the PoE experience I would not have bought the second game.

[house2fly]

I gotta say, if Tyranny outsells Deadfire then we can pretty much lay to rest any idea that quality drives sales. I liked Tyranny but it's a flawed gem, emphasis very much on the "flawed"

[Archaven]

After playing much of Deadfire I would say we should scrap friendly firw

Edited November 10, 2018 by Archaven

[AndreaColombo]

we can pretty much lay to rest any idea that quality drives sales.

I put that to rest a while back.

[Melusina]

If half of the players hated PoE, then where do the good user reviews come from?

 

Don't get me wrong. POE was nice game, just fundamentally flawed.

I gave game 5 stars on GOG and I don't regret it. It's a nice game.

 

But it sucked. Like that.

[AndreaColombo]

“It’s a nice game” and “It sucked” are contradictory statements.

[Melusina]

Not necessary

[misterjimmy]

Pillars of Eternity Tactics could be interesting. 

[Melusina]

“It’s a nice game” and “It sucked” are contradictory statements.

 

Just to clarify - both can be true in this way and multiple way:

 

pros:

 

It's nice game with original storyline

It's nice fantasy game

it has original game mechanics

RTWP is awesome

true rpg

 

cons:

it's burden to play

it's taking too long to kick off

trash mobs are plentiful

slow combat, even slower than DOS2

story, although original, lacks charm and it's not engaging.

 

 

 

I understand you think game is nice =/= game sucks

But when I say game sucks, that doesn't mean game isn't nice, it's just nice little game with fundamentally utterly flawed decisions.

[wih]

 

slow combat, even slower than DOS2

POE has slow combat? How so? For me the main problem with POE combat was that everything happened lighting fast.  I don't remember events in IE games unfolding so quickly. In POE things were uncomfortable for me - I had to pause all the time and then scroll back the event window in order to understand what hit me.

[Melusina]

 

 

slow combat, even slower than DOS2

POE has slow combat? How so? For me the main problem with POE combat was that everything happened lighting fast.  I don't remember events in IE games unfolding so quickly. In POE things were uncomfortable for me - I had to pause all the time and then scroll back the event window in order to understand what hit me.

 

 

Game defaults to auto-slow combat. Without that it was managable, I like fast paced games. But in any case, combat wasn't the shining star in this game.

[Sanjid099]

Seems like all my hopes for a Pillars of Eternity trilogy is gone... Divinity OS 2 really pisses me off. I don't know why that game hit home run with sales. Turn-based just feels too slow-paced. The game's atmosphere is all over the place (you have cartoony characters with blood and gore). The story is exponentially inferior to that of Deadfire. The running mechanism is slow and annoying. Divinity's itemization is horrendous. Level scaling is atrocious (act 1 & 2 were difficult beyond comprehension while act 3 was e.z p.z). The only reason it did well was because of "multiplayer"... It seems like the masses are truly an ignorant bunch  Hell, Black Ops 4 and Fifa 19 are breaking sales records even though they have the exact same gameplay as their predecessors with no improvement in quality..

Edited November 11, 2018 by Sanjid099

[wih]

Even if Deadfire is not selling all that well, I don't see why Obsidian should refrain from another "Figstarter" that can potentially give them another 2-3 million dollars so that they can develop yet another game (POE 3) with the already available engine and tools and IP.

If they do that they will have three games bringing revenue for them and not for some publisher. There are fates worse than that.

[AwesomeOcelot]

1) PoE was not very learnable, there's not a lot of feedback about what's happening, the log has a lot of information in it, and the combat goes crazy fast in real-time, it's not very visually clear either. I imagine half the players got turned off by that. 2) There's a lot of reading and references to history/philosophy that's going to go over people's heads. There were loads of that backer content that wasn't clearly marked, and probably best skipped. 3) PoE launched a bit a of a mess, quite a few people probably had a bad time. Also a lot of people didn't even get through the first chapter, maybe because of time commitments or maybe because the gameplay wasn't for them.

 

I suspect this means that Deadfire was never going to reach half the sales of PoE, PoE has enough press and good reviews to get people to try it, even though Deadfire improved upon almost everything it didn't have the press and reviews to get people to try it. I don't think anything was going to persuade half the audience to give it a try. It's also a sequel so people aren't necessarily going to jump into it, thinking they'll have missed the story. So if Deadfire can't retain the audience from PoE, generate interest from new players, it's going to sell less.

 

There's room for a sequel to Deadfire, games like this can still make money, whether Obsidian thinks it's worth their time considering the return is another issue. I'd suggest given that they can crowd fund the games, that they own the IP, that should be enough.