Subclasses: Poor design makes them undesirable.

[evilcat]

Beguiler Cipher could be probalematic.

First you need eyestrike/phantome foes as opener. Or someone in party triggering sneak attack.

Extea range is less imporntant than Area of Effect, or Duration or Penetration.

6 focus on single target high level power is nothing.

Less damage and focus if requirments dont meet is severe.

 

Ascendants make better Beguilers, than Beguilers. Since it is easier for them to build focus. Can cast RingLeader for free. And could use other powers just fine.

 

Solutions:

Your Deceptions spells have also +20% duration and bonus AOE.

If you meet sneak attack requirments SoulWhip deals MOAR damage, and builds focus faster.

Edited May 22, 2018 by evilcat

[Myrtillo]

 

Erm... because you get +2 PEN and increased crit damage and that's pretty good? Especially it you (as a player) don't like to switch weapons a lot. 

 

What do you mean with "I will take a hit"?

 

I mean, you pretty much summed it up in your response. There are many situations where you can get significantly more than +2 pen by switching weapon types. Crit damage is OK but the option to switch weapons to overpen on every swing is significantly better than it. And that's not counting being able to support the party with Club / Flail / Morningstar / Mace / Pike / Hatchet / Wand modals or Blast AoE.

 

Devoted lets you avoid engaging with these systems and gives you a weapon that's good enough to always contribute. To me, it's the "Charge ahead!" option on ship encounters - I understand why it's there for other people, but I *like* engaging with these mechanics, and can't see myself ever choosing the subclass.

 

 

You are looking at it only from a mechanics perspective. And from your gameplay experience.

Let`s say I want to play a character that only uses rapiers. Devoted lets me do that and get some value out of it. With pros and cons, like a subclass should be.

 

Actually, this is the criticism I would do to many people on this forum: They only look at balance from a pure mechanics perspective with a munchkin idea of their character. And I think this is a side-effect from the multiplayer culture where you have to be better than the other player, giving absolute precedence to the mechanics.

I am not an advocate of "single player means balance doesn't matter". Balance does matter. But quite obviously Deadfire has been balanced around giving you the ability to play the character you want, not the character you have to. And I think devs did a really good job on that.

 

All the subclasses pointed out as "useless" are not. Maybe for some of them the cons are bigger than the pros in the majority of situation, so what ? The purpose of the sublass is not to be stronger than another or a base class but to create a different gameplay experience, that fits with what you want to do with your character.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Myrtillo

[Braven]

I generally agree with you.  Life-giver is not terrible if you just completely ignore shifting.  For Example, you could create a super heal bot with something like priest/druid and just do nothing but continually cast AOE heal spells for crazy high health regeneration.  Life-giver, in this concept, would be better than a standard druid or the other subclasses.  It does feel bad to basically have to ignore the class defining feature, though.  No reason to use it unless the battle will end in a few seconds... and at that point you probably don't need any healing anymore.

 

Black Jacket seems to be designed to be used with a gun cycling build, to avoid having to reload.  However, long recovery time from guns is no longer an issue in POE2 since there are tons of ways to massively reduce the reload time of firearms such that gun cycling guns is no longer worth the effort.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Braven

[Verde]

Black Jacket is made to be used with guns AND melee and aligns really well with a Rogue multi imho.

 

Devoted, multis well with Rogue too, and even Wizard/Priest I would think.

[Bugged Wolf Companion]

I currently started the game with beraths blessing as a Helwalker/Wayfarer Multiclass and goddamn is it strong. Okay probably because its 1) Monk splashed into it and 2) Beraths blessing. Anyway its huge fun and i can recommend it.

[Boeroer]

I generally agree with you.  Life-giver is not terrible if you just completely ignore shifting.  For Example, you could create a super heal bot with something like priest/druid and just do nothing but continually cast AOE heal spells for crazy high health regeneration.  Life-giver, in this concept, would be better than a standard druid or the other subclasses.  It does feel bad to basically have to ignore the class defining feature, though.  No reason to use it unless the battle will end in a few seconds... and at that point you probably don't need any healing anymore.

 

Black Jacket seems to be designed to be used with a gun cycling build, to avoid having to reload.  However, long recovery time from guns is no longer an issue in POE2 since there are tons of ways to massively reduce the reload time of firearms such that gun cycling guns is no longer worth the effort.

Why do you say that? Livegiver gets +5 PL (on top of the +2 PL it already has and also on top of something like Wellspring) with Rejuvenation spells when shifting. If you anticipate that you need a very strong and long lasting healing effect it's very good to shift before casting Moonwell for example. Sure, after shifting ends you'll get -5, but that's all manageable. 

[youspoonybard]

 

 

Erm... because you get +2 PEN and increased crit damage and that's pretty good? Especially it you (as a player) don't like to switch weapons a lot. 

 

What do you mean with "I will take a hit"?

 

I mean, you pretty much summed it up in your response. There are many situations where you can get significantly more than +2 pen by switching weapon types. Crit damage is OK but the option to switch weapons to overpen on every swing is significantly better than it. And that's not counting being able to support the party with Club / Flail / Morningstar / Mace / Pike / Hatchet / Wand modals or Blast AoE.

 

Devoted lets you avoid engaging with these systems and gives you a weapon that's good enough to always contribute. To me, it's the "Charge ahead!" option on ship encounters - I understand why it's there for other people, but I *like* engaging with these mechanics, and can't see myself ever choosing the subclass.

 

 

You are looking at it only from a mechanics perspective. And from your gameplay experience.

Let`s say I want to play a character that only uses rapiers. Devoted lets me do that and get some value out of it. With pros and cons, like a subclass should be.

 

Actually, this is the criticism I would do to many people on this forum: They only look at balance from a pure mechanics perspective with a munchkin idea of their character. And I think this is a side-effect from the multiplayer culture where you have to be better than the other player, giving absolute precedence to the mechanics.

I am not an advocate of "single player means balance doesn't matter". Balance does matter. But quite obviously Deadfire has been balanced around giving you the ability to play the character you want, not the character you have to. And I think devs did a really good job on that.

 

All the subclasses pointed out as "useless" are not. Maybe for some of them the cons are bigger than the pros in the majority of situation, so what ? The purpose of the sublass is not to be stronger than another or a base class but to create a different gameplay experience, that fits with what you want to do with your character.

 

 

I do disagree, and especially disagree in this case.

 

If you as a player decide you don't want to switch weapons because you don't enjoy doing so, that's fine. If you decide your character is a master of only one weapon type, and they never switch weapons, that's fine too. But you are fully capable of just picking a fighter and never changing weapons. Why should you get mechanical benefits via a subclass to support this?

 

Sure, mastering one weapon is a common archetype. But why is that supported over, say, a Fighter who bashes with shields? Or one who learns to wield 2H'ers in one hand? What about a grappling character? These characters aren't supported by the standard Fighter class and would make for interesting subclasses in my opinion. As we are constrained by the system, we do have to judge them on their mechanics. Would you be happy if Devoted was "can't use any other weapons / proficiencies, gain 3 max health" because the subclass mechanically makes a person who only fights with one weapon type more effective than a standard fighter doing the same?

 

I never said that Devoted is useless. In fact, I stated their use clearly - they are for players who (for mechanical or roleplay reasons) do not wish to engage in the penetration or modal aspects of combat. That gameplay is not interesting to me.

[Myrtillo]

 

I do disagree, and especially disagree in this case.

 

If you as a player decide you don't want to switch weapons because you don't enjoy doing so, that's fine. If you decide your character is a master of only one weapon type, and they never switch weapons, that's fine too. But you are fully capable of just picking a fighter and never changing weapons. Why should you get mechanical benefits via a subclass to support this?

 

Sure, mastering one weapon is a common archetype. But why is that supported over, say, a Fighter who bashes with shields? Or one who learns to wield 2H'ers in one hand? What about a grappling character? These characters aren't supported by the standard Fighter class and would make for interesting subclasses in my opinion. As we are constrained by the system, we do have to judge them on their mechanics. Would you be happy if Devoted was "can't use any other weapons / proficiencies, gain 3 max health" because the subclass mechanically makes a person who only fights with one weapon type more effective than a standard fighter doing the same?

 

I never said that Devoted is useless. In fact, I stated their use clearly - they are for players who (for mechanical or roleplay reasons) do not wish to engage in the penetration or modal aspects of combat. That gameplay is not interesting to me.

 

 

So because it is not interesting to you, it is objectively a bad design ?

 

Plus, why would being devoted means that you can't swap weapons to engage with the armor system and adapt to the situation ? If anything, it can create more depth in the character and more meaningful choices.

 

Devoted:

"I master the rapier, I do more damage to normal ennemies when I use the rapier.

This particular ennemy has more piercing armor but is weak to crush damage. Should I swap to my side mace, knowing that I will be less accurate but do more damage ? Or should I keep my rapier and hope for a crit to penetrate that armor ?".

 

Black jacket:

This ennemy is weaker to that damage, let's swap to the appropriate weapon to do more damage".

There is no real decision making, unless you play on expert mode and don't have access to the defensive information of your foe. You adapt to the situation.

 

In both cases, players engage with the mechanic the way they intended to play their character. One with a tough choice on a situation where his mastery is not adapted, one with a good read and reaction to a situation to yield better results.

This is exactly what those subclasses are supposed to be.

 

Conclusion: Both subclasses are well designed and worth taking if that's the playstyle you like.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Myrtillo

[Sotnik]

Devoted: don't forget he has Unarmed proficiency as well. Make your own conclusions .

 

 

I am very disappointed by Shifter, really. Not from the balance perspective. To me, this sub-class looks inconsistent and silly; I wish it was specialized on one form with some interesting bonuses like an additional active ability in a spiritshift form plus a longer spiritshift.

 

 

Trickster almost exists so you can avoid making a spellblade, but the main focus of rogues, something even the Swashbuckler has, gets nerfed quite heavily.

 

 

I don't know if Trickster's -20% sneak attack malus scales with PL, but in general, it is quite an interesting option and the best for a riposte rogue - at least within single classes.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Sotnik

[Gunzwei]

I generally agree with you.  Life-giver is not terrible if you just completely ignore shifting.  For Example, you could create a super heal bot with something like priest/druid and just do nothing but continually cast AOE heal spells for crazy high health regeneration.  

 

Did this on my "AI Only" playthrough. Great healer and charm animal is a nice bonus.

[Mercbeast]

 

 

 

 

 

I should add, I am playing heavily modded. POTD has 2x hp, aggressive level scaling, less accuracy/defense from levels, less xp overall. So, sustain is favored over burst, cause it's just not possible to burst much down off of like 1 or 2 attacks.

Can you share your method/files for increasing PotD health? I found the other mods for increased difficulty but not that one.

It's in the global.gamedatabundle search for "pathofthedamned" it will take you to the difficulty settings. It allows you to change HP and damage at each difficulty level. The AI already hits really hard, and has massive accuracy/deflection advantages with the mods I'm running, so I just boosted HP and not damage!

what value you suggest to put in HP? 2 or more?

I edited this in my game to 1.5 but I don't think it's working. Maybe it's just for ships (I didn't test extensively). Enemies I fought were just as easy as before.

it is working, I noticed an increase in HP setting the value to 2

 

 

2 doubles the HP. It's what I am running. It makes fights a pretty big slog. I'm enjoying it.

[Ophiuchus]

Beguiler Cipher could be probalematic.

First you need eyestrike/phantome foes as opener. Or someone in party triggering sneak attack.

Extea range is less imporntant than Area of Effect, or Duration or Penetration.

6 focus on single target high level power is nothing.

Less damage and focus if requirments dont meet is severe.

 

Ascendants make better Beguilers, than Beguilers. Since it is easier for them to build focus. Can cast RingLeader for free. And could use other powers just fine.

 

Solutions:

Your Deceptions spells have also +20% duration and bonus AOE.

If you meet sneak attack requirments SoulWhip deals MOAR damage, and builds focus faster.

Imo, Beguiler is best suited for multiclassing since you're probably only going to cast Deception powers. I've had a blast with ranged Beguiler/generic Rogue for obvious synergy, and even after taking Biting Whip, I haven't had any problems with Focus generation. I'll usually open up with an upgraded Crippling Strike (the one that applies Distracted...can't remember the name at current) from Stealth, followed by Phantom Foes, Secret Horrors, and Eyestrike. Affliction traps and poisons add some good flavor to the build.

 

Also, casting a Deception power from Stealth triggers the Focus generation, which pares well with Whisper of Treason. I'm also certain the Focus generation is based on level or power level since it increases over time.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Ophiuchus

[Killyox]

Tbh,

 

My Goldpact/Trubadour even before +100% healing chant has so much healing with lay on hands + aura + chant I usually can just happily melee with my DW. Or I can go full yolo with my armor doing raw aoe dmg (found on the undead island) + winds+ dragon thrashing. Still it's not needed because I feel like Arcane skill makes scrolls ridiculously powerful. So you can have more than pure wizard nukes packed into unkillable characte that also does 50+ dmg per swing and heals an entire party. Wiped entire groups of mobs with scroll spells and 15+ Arcane

 

Ridiculous enough that I let 5 of my guys sit in the back and just solo with him or Eder (yeah, swashbuckler Eder got to a point of soloing most of POTD even though he has no subclasses at all)

Edited May 23, 2018 by Killyox

[Boeroer]

Test a Beguiler with Eyestrike: cast it on a group of enemies that surround your tank. You can see that you get more focus back than you spend. That's the beauty of the Beguiler...

[Tosho]

I just noticed Trickster gets "Wall of Many Colors" at lvl 19, the spell is pretty OP and probably goes well with someone who can utilize stealth and invis.

 

 

Sadly lvl 19 is a bit too far in for my liking.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Tosho

[flamesium]

For example, ALL of the Barbarian's classes are kinda ****. Berserker has some amazing buffs with Frenzy, but they lose out on the final "upgrades" of Frenzy that can extend time as long as you keep killing.

 

You get the final levels of Frenzy, they're in tier 7.

 

If you multi-class with Monk and stack wounds you'll have so much bonus Int from Turning Wheel that your Flurry and Frenzy will last longer than you'll ever need them to. With Barbaric Smash refunding the rage cost on a kill, and Blood Thirst giving zero recovery on kill, you can often just blitz through regular mobs with one instant recovery Barbaric Smash after another.

 

edit: My mistake, looks like this has been patched out since release.

Edited May 23, 2018 by flamesium

[JerekKruger]

You get the final levels of Frenzy, they're in tier 7.

Currently Berserkers don't. It's almost certainly a bug since there are Berserker versions of all four upgraded Frenzies (Blood Frenzy, Spirit Frenzy, Blood Storm and Spirit Tornado) but they can only actually take Blood Frenzy.

[Shadenuat]

BG2 "devoted" - you can't wear armor at all, can't use helmets, no shields, no bracers, you do get some ac bonus though, attacks, speed per level, unique crit ability.

PoE: you get + damage and penetration on weapon. Pick best with 2 types of damage. You're awesome.

 

And many kits do look like just a nifty roleplaying thing.

[flamesium]

 

You get the final levels of Frenzy, they're in tier 7.

Currently Berserkers don't. It's almost certainly a bug since there are Berserker versions of all four upgraded Frenzies (Blood Frenzy, Spirit Frenzy, Blood Storm and Spirit Tornado) but they can only actually take Blood Frenzy.

 

 

It looks like they've patched it out (deliberately or otherwise), as my Berserker multi from release has Spirit Tornado.

 

I'm not really sure why they've removed that option specifically when it's the Blood Thirst / Barbaric Smash combo which is massively OP and still available.

Edited May 23, 2018 by flamesium

[JerekKruger]

It looks like they've patched it out (deliberately or otherwise), as my Berserker multi from release has Spirit Tornado.

 

Doubt it was intentional since there's a bug report on it with a developer reply treating it like a bug. Fingers crossed it'll be fixed soon.

[Haplok]

Well, I didn't see these Spirit Frenzy upgrades (or the final Blood Frenzy one) on Berserker skill tree when creating the character... but now I do see them on the tree during level ups. Sadly not there yet to tell one way or the other.

[Thormind]

Maybe you played too much WoW, in this game tanks do do damage.

 

Exactly my reaction. With the way agro is designed getting a bonus on disengagement attacks actually help the tank keep mobs on him. The +1 engagement is also a big deal since it allows the fighter to use 2 handed or dual wield and keep a reasonable number of engaged targets. Some multiclass combinations gets such a good defense that they can easily lose the shield with no major impact on survivability. Crusaders come to mind. If you do keep the shields it allows you to skip the +1 engagement passive from the fighter tree, thus saving you an ability point. You can also get both bonuses (shield + passive) and use another stance than Guarding. Speed debuff is not that big of a deal because fighters can charge to melee when needed.

 

The -reflex can be balanced by taking higher dex and perception stats. Perception is needed because it helps you land your CC abilities and maintain agro (through DPS potential). Dex is needed because you want to be able to use your "life saving" tools as fast as possible when you need them.  After many restart i think the priority stats for a tank is resolve, perception and dex. I do not like to min max so i generally go 10mig, 10con, 15dex, 17per, 10int and 16 resolve. If multiclassing with chanter class i would switch to 10, 10, 10, 17, 15, 16.

 

Now to get back on topic there are some badly designed subclasses but IMO its not most of them. Fighter: all viable, Paladin: all viable, Priest: all viable, Chanter: all viable, Monk: all viable, Ranger: 2 good ones, Cipher 2 good ones, Druid: 2 good ones, rogue: 2 good ones, Barbarian: only 1 viable, Wizard: only 1 viable.

 

I you look at other similar RPGs (computer or tabletop) thats really not a bad design...

[Sotnik]

 

Maybe you played too much WoW, in this game tanks do do damage.

 

Exactly my reaction. With the way agro is designed getting a bonus on disengagement attacks actually help the tank keep mobs on him.

 

How is agro designed? Is there a guide in the Cyclopedia or on the Forum?