Boeroer

Because it's a Russian developer. Owlcat's hedquarters are in greece (officially - I guess because of easier access to the EU?) but actually the head developers are Russian or East European and they are located in Moscow. Because games of German developers sell particularly well in German speaking countries (and same with Asian devs/Asia) I guess that the same may be true for Russian developers selling games in Russian speaking countries. Good point! Don't know if it's really the case but at least it makes sense.

I also purchased Wasteland 2 - it was ok, but I couldn't bring myself to finish it. Therefore I don't plan to buy Wasteland 3.

Didn't he say "We are making RPGs" which would then be interpreted as "You know us, usually we are developing RPGs, but this time...". So I wouldn't read too much into something vague that somebody said on stage. But of course they are working on RPGs!

Congrats. Definitely not my type of game but if you guys have fun making it then all the power to you and your shrinkray gun. I only wonder what Mystario would say to the subtitle of the forum...

Seems more like a nice little finger exercise in between bigger projects. You can't be doing RPGs all the time without getting bored I presume. I may be mistaken but it also looks as if the target audience is a bit younger than that of the more "classical" Obsidian games. However - the funny part was that the "new IP" rumors sparked some hype and then...

New IP... ...ROFLMAYONNAISE!

Yes, I posted several of Josh's recent tumblr stuff in the "Josh Sawyer's tweets and teasers" thread.

https://www.xbox.com/de-DE/x019 It is said that Obsidian (among other things) will announce a new IP today. Maybe there's also news about Deadfire for consoles or other stuff.

@Jarmo: Yes, the combat mechanics are rather deep. I like that but it's not everybody's cup of tea. If you like role playing games with less focus on combat: did you try Disco Elysium?

Wait for today's XO19 presentations (20:00 GMT). Maybe there's more info there.

Eitr is a really stark example. They not only can't finish their game but also don't communicate.

If you think the game is short then I assume you mainly did the main quest (which is indeed very short) and not many side content (which is plenty)? The 3 DLCs are mostly very good (if you liked the main game in the first place). Seeker, Slayer, Survivor is mostly a battle arena with heavy focus on tricky encounters (if you like that it's great, if you don't particularly like the fights in Deadfire then not). The other two I found to be very interesting and intriguing.

I don't object that there is a word-of-mouth effect. I am just challenging your statement that this is the main reason for massive sales drops. See user (not even critics) reviews. You didn't address my main counterargument: when the plot got "trashed" so hard and was putting people off from buying the game - why are the user reviews on Steam and everywhere else still so good? On Steam they are at 84% - and while they are not as good on metacritic they are still at 7.8 - which is more than for Kingmaker which sold better. PoE had 8.3. This is better than Deadfire's user score on metacritic - but is it enough to explain 600K less sold copies? And can it be explained by the alleged poor plot alone? I don't think so. Your argumentation so far was a bit self defeating so I have no reason to believe otherwise. If you think you can confute my argument then please do so. In this matter my opinion is not set in stone. Besides that: It's not our job nor our intention to lead discussions in a way that you like them. What is up to for debate or not is not yours to decide. If you don't want to debate your theories I would suggest that you don't post them in a forum which main purpose (and title) is discussion.

I didn't read a lot about that, but it did came up. Still my argument is: when so many players found the plot bad enough that it could explain a massive sales drop then why are the average user reviews still so good? I presume sometimes we think our personal gripes and disappointments must be common because they seem so obvious to us - but it seems (looking at several data points) in this case they are not.

Then the plot wasn't a reason for you to not buy it since you only learned about that after your purchase (correct me if I'm wrong). It then may be a reason for you to not buy a PoE3 in the future, but it doesn't explain why Deadfire didn't sell well.

@Selky: Did you buy it nevertheless?

Sounds right.

Aaand I learned an awesome new word today. Thanks for this!

If you call a reasonably presented argument bonkers you are indirectly calling that person who made it bonkers. It's bad style and totally unneccessary since nobody attacked you or your arguments in the same way. As you can see with most other folks participating in this discussion it's perfectly doable to have a controversial discussion while stying decent. Besides that, none of the points you attacked were outlandish to begin with. That might be your perception because you seem to have become obsessed by the Avellone theory. I made some points why I think that theory is not very convincing - or better: why this theory (Avellone leaves --> sales drop) might not be completely wrong but can't explain the massive sales drop. That's my whole point on this. Maybe several fans turned their back on Obsidian after that. But 600,000 Avellone fans boycotting Deadfire? That's a theory that I could call "bonkers" if I wished to attack you personally. Which I don't. I presented no numbers because I don't have access to any that would show the impact of Avellone leaving Obsidian or writing for other games. However, I made some observations and draw logical conclusions that oppose your theory. You didn't present any numbers either and besides that not even one solid argument or even anecdotal evidence (which isn't strong but it's better than nothing), yet you are accusing me of fabricating stuff and call other people's reflective take on this "bonkers". My analysis of the situation is that we can't know really why Deadfire sold poorly, but when I look at all the points that were made I think that unseccessfull marketing, disappointment with PoE, isometric RTwP CRPG saturation, alleged pirate setting and change of crowdfunding platform and narrowing down on the target audiance instead of trying to widen it are the main reasons. Yet I can't be sure - like you can't be sure. Therefore I choose to not to crusade for a certain reason. I only challange theories that I think are weaker than others. Since we can't know for sure (I mean not even the developers with telemetry and other tools do know) it's just for the sake of the discussion itself - so better keep it decent I'd say.

I figure it actually doesn't matter so much that the game itself isn't really a pirate game. What matters more is the impression potential players get when looking at trailers, scavenger hunt, ads, interviews, artwork prior to release. And if you only mention tropical biome + sloops + pirates then the ship has already sailed. This obviously can only be a part of the explanation though. But I think it's a reasonable one. Like the "it's not BG3" and the "IE-style game with RTwP saturation" as well as the "PoE did disappoint players who didn't care for Deadfire" explanations. And also marketing.

@Skarpen: it would be very nice if you didn't add "bonkers" to points and comparisons you make. We neither belittle your arguments nor you as a person and you don't need to belittle us and our arguments to make a point. If your reasoning is solid it will get acknowledged. Calling people names will just lead to the opposite. The points that were made by the others are not bonkers in any ways but brought forth in a decent manner. Maybe they are wrong, maybe not. But bonkers? Hardly... Not everything or everyone one doesn't agree with is bonkers. Concerning advertising games with Josh Sawyer: I don't have any numbers but I guess there are at least as many gamers that would call Sawyer a game developer "legend" as there are Avellone fans. And I also think there's a significant overlap. Josh may have lost some followers because he's quite outspoken when it comes to his political views though. But anyways: several things alleviate your argument that Avellone's departure caused a significant sales drop - or that the participation of Avellone automatically means that sales will go up tremendously: Preorders of Deadfire were higher than those of PoE. User reviews were great in general. If there would have been massive disappointment about Avellone leaving it would have had an impact on user reviews. I read a lot of the negative reviews on Steam and I don't recall any that said something about Avellone. They might exist but I doubt there are many. Projects in which Avellone participated didn't experience a massive sales surge that comes near the sales drop of PoE-->Deadfire. In some cases the follow-up game with Avellone sold worse than the first one. Example: FTL (Avellone only participated in the free Enhanced Edition) --> Into the Breach. Obviously those are quite different games on several levels. But if the theory that Avellone's name alone has so much impact it shouldn't matter if the games are different (as long as they are comparably good). I saw nobody on Twitter or in Discord addressing Obsidian developers or Obsidian themselves with that theory. Where one might read such a theory and where it might get fostered is the RPGCodex. But that's just a fraction of potential CRPG players and its views and opinions as a collective doesn't necessarily represent those of the majority. All in all, lookig at all the known facts and numbers (good reviews both from users and critics, improved gameplay, incorporated player feedback etc.) I get the impression that deep disappointment or anger or frustration with Deadfire are not the cause. It rather seems that a lot of potential players (aka target audience) didn't really care about a PoE2. But those who cared mostly liked it.

It most likely hurt the reviews. Nearly all negative steam reviews mention the bugs.

Konstanten with Willbreaker would be my preferred setup. Fighter/Monk can reach very high deflection vs. disengagement attacks (since starting deflection is good and Fast Runner, Graceful Retreat and Tumbling do all stack with Vigorous Defense and Warrior Stance).

@ekt0: Good point about streamers and other influencers in social media and so on. But still: if the quality of Deadfire would have been the problem then that would find its way into user revies which are still (until today) at 84% at steam - and thus a lot better than those for Kingmaker for example. So, not only critics give Deadfire a good rating but most users, too. Thus I think the overall argument (poor quality hurt sales) is not valid - or better: it doesn't explain the massive sales drop. And (even more) seriously now: who doesn't know Thailand?

That was before they realized that he's a lefty.