The big nerf list (patch 1.2) (WIP)

[Zeitzbach]

While some nerfs are warranted, nerfing and gutting majority of the stuff just because a small group of the player base want it to be hardcore isn't a good business and design direction. If anything, majority of the nerfs suggested are really lazy with just "Just drop the damage" because all it does is making the 2nd strongest skill become the next "Braindeadopgamenofun" button of the game.

 

With this kind of nerf, it will just become a DPS contest. Even I can make single-Ranger somewhat op if you know what you are doing in the number game. Grab the legendary dragon fire arquebus from the Uzo gunsmith at Brass citadel. Upgrade it to +50% burn damage and active that is +75% action speed for over 20 seconds. Mark, Empower shot for easy 200 damage at level 8 and just spam Evasive fire at my own position for easy 70 damage every 0.5 seconds until I run out of resource.

 

Take some different approach with the nerfs that do actually add strategy to the game. Number change can only go far.

 

For example, if + PL is such a major issue with empower then just turn it into +% Damage, Accuracy and duration instead. Much easier to balance that way too if you don't have to avoid dealing with skills that get too much power for leveling up.

[MadDemiurg]

While some nerfs are warranted, nerfing and gutting majority of the stuff just because a small group of the player base want it to be hardcore isn't a good business and design direction. If anything, majority of the nerfs suggested are really lazy with just "Just drop the damage" because all it does is making the 2nd strongest skill become the next "Braindeadopgamenofun" button of the game.

 

With this kind of nerf, it will just become a DPS contest. Even I can make single-Ranger somewhat op if you know what you are doing in the number game. Grab the legendary dragon fire arquebus from the Uzo gunsmith at Brass citadel. Upgrade it to +50% burn damage and active that is +75% action speed for over 20 seconds. Mark, Empower shot for easy 200 damage at level 8 and just spam Evasive fire at my own position for easy 70 damage every 0.5 seconds until I run out of resource.

 

Take some different approach with the nerfs that do actually add strategy to the game. Number change can only go far.

 

For example, if + PL is such a major issue with empower then just turn it into +% Damage, Accuracy and duration instead. Much easier to balance that way too if you don't have to avoid dealing with skills that get too much power for leveling up.

+PL pretty much translates to +damage, accuracy and duration. +10 PL is +100% damage for most of the abilities.

 

And yes, I can't cover all the stuff with 1 list, just the most obvious things. They should be iterated on. 

 

Damage should be balanced between abilities and PLs. One PL 9 ability should not do 5x the damage of another similar ability. The goal is to get to a balanced state where all abilities are viable alternatives, not where one is an "I win" button and all others are trash, so that you actually have meaningful choices.

[AndreaColombo]

For what it's worth, my opinion on the matter is as follows:

 

• Abilities shouldn't be able to proc themselves (I'm looking at you, Cleaving Stance and Swift Flurry.) This is regardless of any PotD rebalancing or A.I. enhancement.
• The devs have openly admitted to not having had enough time to properly balance PotD. As a result, PotD is significantly easier than intended. I believe this should be addressed before nerfs are considered.
• The above doesn't mean that PotD should be specifically balanced against abilities currently considered OP. It should be brought to where the developers had originally intended (if they admitted it's too easy, they must have had a point of comparison—too easy compared to what they had in mind. We need to get PotD to wherever what they had in mind is.)
• Generally speaking, if something is available to players, it should be available to enemies. If players can summon dragons and use the Brilliant inspiration, so should enemies. Before we nerf, let's get rid of iniquitous advantages where players have an array of stuff available to them that enemies don't.
• At that point we can call for nerfs as appropriate. Is PotD still too easy? Are specific abilities too powerful when used against enemies? Are specific abilities too powerful when used against the player?

 

If we start nerfing abilities now, the we buff up PotD, we risk applying multiple fixes to the same problem at the same time—IME, a recipe for a bad result.

Edited May 17, 2018 by AndreaColombo

[MadDemiurg]

I don't mind PoTD buffs coming first, however no amount of buffs will fix abilities dealing 2k+ damage or invulnerability combos.

Edited May 17, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[Zeitzbach]

 

While some nerfs are warranted, nerfing and gutting majority of the stuff just because a small group of the player base want it to be hardcore isn't a good business and design direction. If anything, majority of the nerfs suggested are really lazy with just "Just drop the damage" because all it does is making the 2nd strongest skill become the next "Braindeadopgamenofun" button of the game.

 

With this kind of nerf, it will just become a DPS contest. Even I can make single-Ranger somewhat op if you know what you are doing in the number game. Grab the legendary dragon fire arquebus from the Uzo gunsmith at Brass citadel. Upgrade it to +50% burn damage and active that is +75% action speed for over 20 seconds. Mark, Empower shot for easy 200 damage at level 8 and just spam Evasive fire at my own position for easy 70 damage every 0.5 seconds until I run out of resource.

 

Take some different approach with the nerfs that do actually add strategy to the game. Number change can only go far.

 

For example, if + PL is such a major issue with empower then just turn it into +% Damage, Accuracy and duration instead. Much easier to balance that way too if you don't have to avoid dealing with skills that get too much power for leveling up.

+PL pretty much translates to +damage, accuracy and duration. +10 PL is +100% damage for most of the abilities.

 

And yes, I can't cover all the stuff with 1 list, just the most obvious things. They should be iterated on. 

 

Damage should be balanced between abilities and PLs. One PL 9 ability should not do 5x the damage of another similar ability. The goal is to get to a balanced state where all abilities are viable alternatives, not where one is an "I win" button and all others are trash, so that you actually have meaningful choices.

 

 

Then leave those skills as high damage and nerf something else.

 

For example, introduce channeling spell and turn Meteor into one. Can't move while using it. Also increase how badly it attract attention. With its mid-size cast range, it turns into a "If I use this all the gunner will be on me" type of spell. It now has a weakness.

 

And turning from +PL to +damage/acc/duration make it so that spells like Missile don't get extra projectile while still dealing damage.

 

I don't even like Meteor. I prefer Salvo with Maelstorm. Impressive Maelstorm isn't on the lsn't on the list. That skill alone removes all non-boss fight frm the game.

 

And if the skills do too much damage on boss... How about giving boss actual amount of armor rating? Armor rating is easy -25% total damage per underpen. Make it so that players have to use armor reduction skill for once.

 

Try this change

 

On PotD....

 

ENEMY HAS 25% MORE ARMOR.

 

Squishy can still be killed.

The tank and boss? Suddenly no longer get 2k damage per high-tier skill unless you debuff them.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Zeitzbach

[knownastherat]

 

TBH I do not quite understand that idea behind "Empower". What is it for? 

It's a per rest resource.

 

It either adds +10 power levels to the ability you use or restores half of your per encounter resources.

 

 

I have not made myself clear. I do understand what it does. What I do not understand the reason for having it in game. 

 

How to balance + PL when some mechanics benefit from PL hugely while others very little? MMM vs Wizard's Double for example. 

How to control available resources in encounters when one can restore them?

 

I really would like to be in that room where this was brainstormed. No sarcasm. 

[Irori]

The introduction of multiclass is what really breaks how classes work in general imo.  At some point, maybe in a giant future patch, there can be certain "pure class" only low level talents/abilities.

 

Chanter is one of the biggest culprit.  By themselves, they are this slow caster with powerful invocation which they cannot cast too frequent (unless Troubadour).  Being able to multiclass into something else fixes their issue of "just being an autoattack bot otherwise".

 

Full attacks feels a bit too powerful.  Hitting with 2x1 handers does farrrrr more damage than a 2 handed weapon.

 

Some abilities like devotion for the faithful prob warrants a nerf, but it is also one of the abilities which kind of carry the class.  Would like to see maybe other tools of the priest be buffed.  In particular, its kind of odd how a druid has more healing than a priest.  Maybe priest can use more damage mitigation tools?

 

Rangers can probably use some buffs.  They lack this... "battle mode" a lot of other classes have (frenzy, swift flurry, stances, etc).  

[Zeitzbach]

Rangers can probably use some buffs.  They lack this... "battle mode" a lot of other classes have (frenzy, swift flurry, stances, etc).  

 

Rangers absolutely don't need a buff. People keep saying the class is weak so I'm running PotD with single-ranger as my main.

 

I'm just sitting in place spamming Evasive fire to get rid of all level 10 - 16 contents. Use 47k Cp rifle. Boss is an enemy mage? Mark. Empower Accurate Shot. Bam. Over 200 crit damage, dead in one shot. Spam evasive fire some more. It's so OP to the point I sometime forget to control the mages because I was killing everything too fast.

 

I'm waiting to see Post-level 16 come to fruition now. Buff, shoot, Evasive to the backline, use the pet line-prone to knock everything down, swap to double saber and just AoE spin everything to death. Laugh if you crit and the Gatebreaker perma knock down everything.

[Tosho]

 

Rangers can probably use some buffs.  They lack this... "battle mode" a lot of other classes have (frenzy, swift flurry, stances, etc).  

 

Rangers absolutely don't need a buff. People keep saying the class is weak so I'm running PotD with single-ranger as my main.

 

I'm just sitting in place spamming Evasive fire to get rid of all level 10 - 16 contents. Use 47k Cp rifle. Boss is an enemy mage? Mark. Empower Accurate Shot. Bam. Over 200 crit damage, dead in one shot. Spam evasive fire some more. It's so OP to the point I sometime forget to control the mages because I was killing everything too fast.

 

I'm waiting to see Post-level 16 come to fruition now. Buff, shoot, Evasive to the backline, use the pet line-prone to knock everything down, swap to double saber and just AoE spin everything to death. Laugh if you crit and the Gatebreaker perma knock down everything.

 

 

 

 

I think what sets OP stuff apart is in the first post, like being immortal/tanky, endless resources, god pets, 1000+dmg, rank9 Screen Clears, etc.

 

Ranger is good, just not OP like most other classes can get except for Priest. 

Edited May 17, 2018 by Tosho

[Tosho]

1. For Rogue Gambit might be a bit much and at lvl 16, with decent hit/crit it is guarantee return 4 resources so you can spam it. Very high dmg attack too. Maybe you can test it a bit and see if it qualifies for your list. Then again it's the only reason to Single Class Rogue.  But you can say the same about Meteor, Salvo, Inner Death, and Great Maelstrom for those respective classes.

 

2.  Invisibility Solo in general allows you to reset fights. So kill a mob, go invis, run out of range to get out of combat,  spam restealth, keep doing that 1 by 1 each mob (if you even need to with gambit and smoke cloud 1 shot spam). Could potentially be absolutely broken for future POTD achievements. Mayhaps they will strengthen POTD AI for that solo invis/stealth. 

Edited May 17, 2018 by Tosho

[Zeitzbach]

 

 

Rangers can probably use some buffs.  They lack this... "battle mode" a lot of other classes have (frenzy, swift flurry, stances, etc).  

 

Rangers absolutely don't need a buff. People keep saying the class is weak so I'm running PotD with single-ranger as my main.

 

I'm just sitting in place spamming Evasive fire to get rid of all level 10 - 16 contents. Use 47k Cp rifle. Boss is an enemy mage? Mark. Empower Accurate Shot. Bam. Over 200 crit damage, dead in one shot. Spam evasive fire some more. It's so OP to the point I sometime forget to control the mages because I was killing everything too fast.

 

I'm waiting to see Post-level 16 come to fruition now. Buff, shoot, Evasive to the backline, use the pet line-prone to knock everything down, swap to double saber and just AoE spin everything to death. Laugh if you crit and the Gatebreaker perma knock down everything.

 

 

Can't every class do that type of damage? I think what sets OP stuff apart is in the first post, like being immortal/tanky/endless resources/etc.

 

 

Not every class can deal both ranged and melee damage on-and-off while also CCing which is Ranger new selling point in PoE II. Most of the other choices are pure melee or pure caster. It also helps Evasive fire is a positioning tool so I am able to destroy mid game by getting into Serafen range, make him cast Empowered Amplified wave on me then Evasive fire right into the enemy team for a giant explosion. So much synergy because mobility moves that deal damage are never bad when they are spammable in every possible game.

 

And the immortal/endless resource etc are problem caused by enemies not having means to deal with buffs. PoE 1 also suffered from this issue and it's why the game become ezmodo on PotD once you are able to CC-immune, Defense scroll + devotion buff every fight to guarantee you will win all the dice roll while throwing CC in between. PoE II is still the same thing. Nerfing isn't the answer. Giving the enemies tool to fight players is the proper answer.

[CarrO]

PALADIN

 

-Change Flames of Devotion from "full attack" to "primary attack"

 

Paladin should be a defensive / supportive class. But people multiclass it for maximum DPS because of Flames of Devotion.

 

I have never seen a dual wielding paladin in any fantasy setting ever. It's always weapon and shield or two-handed weapon.

 

This fixes classes like rogue, cipher, barbarian, etc... taking paladin multiclass just for the 1 resource point insane high DPS ability.

[Tosho]

 

 

 

Rangers can probably use some buffs.  They lack this... "battle mode" a lot of other classes have (frenzy, swift flurry, stances, etc).  

 

Rangers absolutely don't need a buff. People keep saying the class is weak so I'm running PotD with single-ranger as my main.

 

I'm just sitting in place spamming Evasive fire to get rid of all level 10 - 16 contents. Use 47k Cp rifle. Boss is an enemy mage? Mark. Empower Accurate Shot. Bam. Over 200 crit damage, dead in one shot. Spam evasive fire some more. It's so OP to the point I sometime forget to control the mages because I was killing everything too fast.

 

I'm waiting to see Post-level 16 come to fruition now. Buff, shoot, Evasive to the backline, use the pet line-prone to knock everything down, swap to double saber and just AoE spin everything to death. Laugh if you crit and the Gatebreaker perma knock down everything.

 

 

Can't every class do that type of damage? I think what sets OP stuff apart is in the first post, like being immortal/tanky/endless resources/etc.

 

 

Not every class can deal both ranged and melee damage on-and-off while also CCing which is Ranger new selling point in PoE II. Most of the other choices are pure melee or pure caster. It also helps Evasive fire is a positioning tool so I am able to destroy mid game by getting into Serafen range, make him cast Empowered Amplified wave on me then Evasive fire right into the enemy team for a giant explosion. So much synergy because mobility moves that deal damage are never bad when they are spammable in every possible game.

 

And the immortal/endless resource etc are problem caused by enemies not having means to deal with buffs. PoE 1 also suffered from this issue and it's why the game become ezmodo on PotD once you are able to CC-immune, Defense scroll + devotion buff every fight to guarantee you will win all the dice roll while throwing CC in between. PoE II is still the same thing. Nerfing isn't the answer. Giving the enemies tool to fight players is the proper answer.

 

 

Can you solo with that build? 

[Zeitzbach]

PALADIN

 

-Change Flames of Devotion from "full attack" to "primary attack"

 

Paladin should be a defensive / supportive class. But people multiclass it for maximum DPS because of Flames of Devotion.

 

I have never seen a dual wielding paladin in any fantasy setting ever. It's always weapon and shield or two-handed weapon.

 

This fixes classes like rogue, cipher, barbarian, etc... taking paladin multiclass just for the 1 resource point insane high DPS ability.

 

But Dual Wielding Paladin been around since PoE 1 though with full attack on Flame of Devotion too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can you solo with that build? 

 

 

The rule of solo build is to always play something tanky or can skip fights so no because Single-ranger don't have any of those cheese. The only exploit you can use with solo-ranger is to hit someone and run out of the aggro range with evasive fire which doesn't work in forced encounter in small map.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Zeitzbach

[Alhoon]

 

Disagree on Chanter- it gives you later game fun of actually using your unique abilities. We are talking about single player RPG here. Please give me example of RPG when at the end of the game you were not basicelly a God- that's the point in RPG too. In the end you usually become one of the strongest mortals/immortals around.

There is also a fun factor here. Also - if you think this Invocation is too strong, then how about.....

 

Don't use it? It only gives that as it's selling point- resources regen. Just don't learn this one and your problem is solved?

 

Because I find it one of better ways to have fun in the end game and just use my abilities and have fun with them intead of calculating resources.

 

But anyway, It doesn't concern me so I will stop here.

It's good that a class has identity and regaining resources is a great one. I agree with you on that.

 

But in my opinion the Brilliant Invocation has two main problems:

 

1) 1 resource / 3 sec is WAY too fast. It'd still be great class defining ability if it was maybe once every 10 seconds or even 15, without taking away this aspect of Chanter niche.

 

2) WHY on earth is this available at plvl 7? Many classes have some spectacularly OP abilities at 8-9 to encourage single classing, and even then multiclassing is still super strong. Brilliant Invocation is arguably the most powerful single ability in the entire game at the moment, and it available for multiclasses? Just makes absolutely no sense.

 

Other than that, the only thing that is actually just plain broken is Fighter / Chanter that can keep themselves immune to all damage, as OP already pointed out. Personally I'd welcome any nerfs really as they just make the game more challenging (something that is direly needed), but these are the only ones that currently break the game completely.

[Miro]

Empowered Wilting Wind, Empowered Great Maelstrom, Empowered Minoletta's Concussive Missiles(on stacked enemies), try them...they oneshot almost everything on potd. This cannot be intended, and if you tell me it's fun, you're weird. Now of course I could simply not use those spells, or empower, or could fight unarmed and naked on all characters, I could also wear a blindfold while playing, but that doesn't change that it needs to be adjusted. They clearly need to do both, nerf empower a bit and nerf certain combinations that are just very powerful but also adjust difficulties, potd is way too easy.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Miro

[El Kabong]

I disagree strongly with the "nerfing" mentality.

 

The game has to be balanced on harder difficulties? Sure! But the player SHOULD feel empowered at higher levels, that's kinda of the purpose to leveling up. If the game makes you grind just so you can keep up with the challenges something is kinda wrong...

 

That said i think the encounters should be made more challenging, more enemies, more aggressive enemies, SMARTER enemies who use THEIR abilities and spells into a greater degree.

 

I'm really hoping this game doesn't get the "Blizzard treatment" where the strong gets nerfed into the oblivion just for the sake of "balancing". If some multiplayer game balancing logic should be applied i think it should be Dota 2's one, where "keep the strong there and buff/rework the weak options until it gets good enough". 

 

The player should have MORE options, not less. And the game should be balanced around it.

[Zeitzbach]

Empowered Wilting Wind, Empowered Great Maelstrom, Empowered Minoletta's Concussive Missiles(on stacked enemies), try them...they oneshot almost everything on potd. This cannot be intended, and if you tell me it's fun, you're weird. Now of course I could simply not use those spells, or empower, or could fight unarmed and naked on all characters, I could also wear a blindfold while playing, but that doesn't change that it needs to be adjusted. They clearly need to do both, nerf empower a bit and nerf certain combinations that are just very powerful but also adjust difficulties, potd is way too easy.

 

It actually feels like they are intended because at level 19-20, majority of the small encounters just bog the game down, the kind of encounter Obsidian been avoiding. Those are like "Skip" button to use instead of spamming Hail storm.

 

Salvo, however, needs a nerf because it's being used to kill bosses that are supposed to be meaningful. The fairest way is to nerf its penetration so it is weak against high armor opponents.

[Camonge]

Yeah rangers are fine. They make a very boring class, but far from weak.

 

I believe OP list nailed it. 

[omnitremere]

Please buff the Cipher's other abilities before nerfing anything.  I've been playing the class and while I am having a good time it's clearly weaker than most of the other options.  Don't nerf it and then make me wait another week before it's other abilities are brought up to par.

[Braven]

While I agree some nerfs are in order, I don’t think the game will ever be remotely balanced. I am already finding even more powerfully broken builds than the currently, popular broken builds. There are just way too many class combinations to ever get anywhere close to balancing everything. If you “patch” one OP thing, the community will just find two more to take it’s place. It will be like playing whack-a-mole for the next couple years and every patch will just create another leak.

 

This was always the danger of adding multiclass, but I think it was worth it for all the game play benefits. I personally enjoy finding ways to break games.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Braven

[Climhazzard]

Maia's damage has slowly been catching up with my MC Nature Godlike monk since she got driving flight and that OP legendary gun that has a 50% damage lash on it.  She's the scout mutli class so that helps too.  She's more item dependent, but seems quite a viable character.  I'm not sure about ranger by itself though.

[Zeitzbach]

Maia's damage has slowly been catching up with my MC Nature Godlike monk since she got driving flight and that OP legendary gun that has a 50% damage lash on it.  She's the scout mutli class so that helps too.  She's more item dependent, but seems quite a viable character.  I'm not sure about ranger by itself though.

 

Solo ranger is a ranged assassin who can later spam the spin or double shot depending on whether they need single-target or AoE damage.

 

 

That's at level 11 when I went to get the book of storm. She's lucky her companions are pierce-immune skeleton and I haven't gone around to get the triple shot bow yet that can hit them.

 

If anything on Ranger that do need buffing, it's the pet skills. Their scaling are terrible because all physical damage at the moment need item to be useful. The rest? No. Ranger are nowhere near trash single-priest who is only useful for 1 single skill.

 

Edit: Also, turns out you can just use Accurate Wounding Shot with Sabre anyway and deal huge dps with melee if needed in the early game. Erase skeleton so fast.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Zeitzbach

[Whitewolfsp]

Yeah , nerf cipher ascendent , the only cipher caster single class that is fun to play ....

[dunehunter]

 

 

Nature Godlike.

True, I'm tired of all my characters being green. I'll think of a good solution and add to the OP.

Why do people ask for nerfs in a single player game?

 

Just because you personally don't find something fun, it doesn't mean everyone else agrees with your preferences.

Because the game has 0 replayability due to being trivial AF atm?

Yet here I am replaying this the 3rd time, while I quit from 1 when I finished TCS on the last patch, as it devolved to a wet noodle fight simulator due to people like you.

Powerful abilities are fun, they should fix bugs (like inifinte cloaking and spell sniping), maybe add some AI or limit the most powerful abilities by resource cost. What you ask is gutting the game from any and all fun. Honestly castrating the first game was enough, thank you, don't mess this one up as well.

 

According to you BGII shouldn't have any replayability due to (amongst many) Timestop or UAI, yet it's still one of those games that keep people entertained. Replayability comes from fun and complexity not from everyone doing 1 damage to each other just with different color.

Bg2 is replayable because it’s difficulty mods like tactical mods, since deadfire now didn’t have one, it relies on obsidian to make it more balance and challlenging.