[Beta4] New Passives are Scams

[draego]

I think generic passives for every class (similar to POE) is a good addition to Deadfire. Unfortunately, there are too few in my opinion and many that are not generic (gunner, marksman, etc.) should be.

 

It's a good step in the right direction but I'm still not entirely sold on Deadfire's gameplay. To me, POE 3.0 is still superior (obviously, this only considers combat mechanics and not the rest).

 

Well there will always be modding later on so the community can add all the passives like the ranged ones back in

[SaruNi]

They don't stack, but now single class can get both passive resistance to afflictions for specific attributes *and* the passives that add to the defense that's usually targeted by those afflictions. 

 

Also, for multiclass combinations where you only want to pick a couple of abilities from one of the classes, the rest of your forced picks from that class can be useful generic passives (instead of being forced to take abilities that are mostly useless for your build or playstyle...).

Edited March 31, 2018 by SaruNi

[Boeroer]

But what about Classes that get a full line of passive choices, that doesn't make any sense with their Class ?

I.E - Spiritshifters, who gets :

• Single Handed // Two Handed // Dual Wielding // More Sets of Weapons...
• Tell me which Shifter out there is going to pick one of these when they're using Claws /Tusks / Horns & Teeth as "Weapons" ?

Shifters are going to be in their Shifted Form most of the time OR cast Magic Spells, these passives are effing useless.

 

Edit : I didn't call for Unique Passives, but now I do. Or at least, a bunch of basic passives that actually make somekind of sense lol.

If you are a shifter with two claws, tusks, horns etc. you want to take two weapon style because it speeds you up (see PoE). As a Fury you'd want to take Two Handed Style. As a non-shifting Animist you can take Single Weapon Style for your spear or whatever. No subclass has unique ability trees - so I don't see the problem here.

[Frog Man]

Dumb question by me - but which specialization is for ranged users like now and arquebus - two handed style?

[Mechalibur]

I think it's a good idea to have some shared talents. They're generic enough that I don't think they should be limited to any specific class. I would like to see some class-specific improved version of these, however. Like the cipher gets a +15 will talent instead of +10, I think that could be expanded to more of the talents. For example, a better fortitude talent for fighters, reflex for rogue, and a better hp talent for barbarians?

 

 

Dumb question by me - but which specialization is for ranged users like now and arquebus - two handed style?

 

The weapon style talents seem to work for both melee and ranged, so if you're using an arquebus, you could pick up the two handed style for a damage bonus.

[Boeroer]

Do they? In PoE the styles were melee only.

[theBalthazar]

If you are a shifter with two claws, tusks, horns etc. you want to take two weapon style because it speeds you up (see PoE). As a Fury you'd want to take Two Handed Style. As a non-shifting Animist you can take Single Weapon Style for your spear or whatever. No subclass has unique ability trees - so I don't see the problem here. 

 

 

Yes but I think he want to say, in this case, you haven't a big choice if you want to be a shifter.

 

Eventually, a Fury have a +1 penetration with electrical. (But attention with stacking rules we never know with Obsi...)

 

A non shifter can use what he want.

 

A shifter... IS ON a monotonous highway.

 

I don't understand WHY NOT new uniques abilities like :

 

Passive. Sharp claws = Penetration +1 when shifted.

Passive. Sacrificial restoration = If you reach the end of the shifting, you can reuse the transformation for half of your life. (Actual HP / 2)

Active. Modal. Broken bones = +30% critical damage and +40 % damage taken if under an affliction.

 

ETC ETC.

 

It is not complicated to... create good abilities. It is only numbers and RP logic. Often there are not even a sound effect. (except for modal perhaps ?) So...

Edited March 31, 2018 by theBalthazar

[bleedthefreak]

Do they? In PoE the styles were melee only.

 

In Beta 3 I successfully tested (I think it was Wands or Rods) and saw the listed damage benefit from Two Handed passive.

[Boeroer]

Then it must have been rods, because wands are one-handed. Well, since one handed ranged weapons like pistols/wands/scepters and so on also profit from +12 ACC when single wielded I think that's just fair. A bit weird though. How does one increase the damage of a ranged weapon by using both hands...

Edited March 31, 2018 by Boeroer

[Guest]

I guess I would understand the fixation on passives if we were being required to take them at every level or if they were our only option. Neither case is true.

[kbot]

Have you ever shot a gun, like a pistol, one handed vs. two handed? Big difference.

 

Ok, fantasy game, don't bring in RL examples, etc.

[Boeroer]

No, but I doubt that holding a pistol in only one hand gives me more accurate shots nor do I think that holding a rifle in two hands makes the bullet do more damage if I hit correctly...

 

Good question. I have not proceed to a test for that. But if theses damages are calculted in "reported pieces", this +1 doesn't work.

 

Certainly (must be tested) only work if you have pure damage. Pure fire, pure elec, pure decay.

 

So there is a very limited utility if you are not wizard and co.

 

Because it is impossible to divide 1/0.25 (corrosive damage)... OR, surprise, Obsidian is generous ( : p I don't dream personnally) and as soon as you have a source of THIS damage, you gain +1 in this attack overall.

Hm... I just tested a Bleak Walker/Wizard with dual fine blunderbusses (8 PEN) and FoD with Scion of Flame AND Spirit of Decay and I get 10 PEN instead of 8 on a hit. Am I missing some hidden PEN bonus from FoD or do Scion + Spirit indeed give me +2 PEN in this case?

 

It all seems to work with keywords and NOT the actual type of damage you cause - because Noxious Burst is keyworded without Acid and thus doesn't get +1 PEN from Spirit of Decay despite doing corrode damage - while Fireball does get +1 PEN because it's keyworded with Fire. FoD is keyworded with Fire, Acid for Bleak Walkers. So I guess it works, hoorray...?

Edited March 31, 2018 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

Double checked by removing Scion of Flame and Spirit of Decay during combat via console: only 8 PEN on crit. They indeed give me +2 PEN with FoD as a Bleak Walker. Good times!

 

Edit: Scion of Flame does NOT give my +1 PEN with Eternal Flames. Another hint that keywords do the trick, not actual damage types.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Boeroer

[lunattic]

 

If you are a shifter with two claws, tusks, horns etc. you want to take two weapon style because it speeds you up (see PoE). As a Fury you'd want to take Two Handed Style. As a non-shifting Animist you can take Single Weapon Style for your spear or whatever. No subclass has unique ability trees - so I don't see the problem here. 

 

 

Yes but I think he want to say, in this case, you haven't a big choice if you want to be a shifter.

 

Eventually, a Fury have a +1 penetration with electrical. (But attention with stacking rules we never know with Obsi...)

 

A non shifter can use what he want.

 

A shifter... IS ON a monotonous highway.

 

I don't understand WHY NOT new uniques abilities like :

 

Passive. Sharp claws = Penetration +1 when shifted.

Passive. Sacrificial restoration = If you reach the end of the shifting, you can reuse the transformation for half of your life. (Actual HP / 2)

Active. Modal. Broken bones = +30% critical damage and +40 % damage taken if under an affliction.

 

ETC ETC.

 

It is not complicated to... create good abilities. It is only numbers and RP logic. Often there are not even a sound effect. (except for modal perhaps ?) So...

 

 

The idea was that you could switch into the modal to suit the combat, but not give a huge passive benefit. Your examples are all massive benefits I wouldn't want to turn off. I do agree however that the modals give penalties that are too large to be worth much. 

[Boeroer]

He was not talking about modals.

 

Also, Wildstrike Attacks may profit from Scion of Flame etc. Didn't test though. FoD works.

[DexGames]

Quote :

 

 

If you are a shifter with two claws, tusks, horns etc. you want to take two weapon style because it speeds you up (see PoE). As a Fury you'd want to take Two Handed Style. As a non-shifting Animist you can take Single Weapon Style for your spear or whatever. No subclass has unique ability trees - so I don't see the problem here. 

 

 

Yes but I think he want to say, in this case, you haven't a big choice if you want to be a shifter.

 

Eventually, a Fury have a +1 penetration with electrical. (But attention with stacking rules we never know with Obsi...)

 

A non shifter can use what he want.

 

A shifter... IS ON a monotonous highway.

 

I don't understand WHY NOT new uniques abilities like :

 

Passive. Sharp claws = Penetration +1 when shifted.

Passive. Sacrificial restoration = If you reach the end of the shifting, you can reuse the transformation for half of your life. (Actual HP / 2)

Active. Modal. Broken bones = +30% critical damage and +40 % damage taken if under an affliction.

 

ETC ETC.

 

It is not complicated to... create good abilities. It is only numbers and RP logic. Often there are not even a sound effect. (except for modal perhaps ?) So...

 

 

 

Basically yes, what I meant is that for a Shifter, it's not hard to guess that a Bear, who's supposed to tank (generally speaking), could benefit from warrior's "Constant Recovery" passive, or a minor version of it. Similar to Pillars one, where Eder/Whoever can get a minor version of Durance's Priest AOE.

 

A Cat could benefit from Roguish Passives, a Stagg could benefit from Carnage, etc.

These are just exemple, & obviously, always at the cost of one Ability point.

 

If you are a shifter with two claws, tusks, horns etc. you want to take two weapon style because it speeds you up (see PoE). As a Fury you'd want to take Two Handed Style. As a non-shifting Animist you can take Single Weapon Style for your spear or whatever. No subclass has unique ability trees - so I don't see the problem here.

 

Does Claws // Tusks // Horns // Etc, are affected by this ? Because I don't think so. Like, these are not proper "Weapons" but rather their own thing, I think.

But if it does then, shouldn't they benefit from one type of Modals too ?

Like the new Unarmed Modal.

[lunattic]

He was not talking about modals.

 

Also, Wildstrike Attacks may profit from Scion of Flame etc. Didn't test though. FoD works.

 

Ah, apologies, the 'modal' word in one of those proposed abilities threw me off there. I see the rest are normal passives. My bad.

[Boeroer]

They should. Natural Weapons are considered to be weapons - as are fists. Two Weapon Style speeds everything up that is dual wielded, be it claw, fist or dagger. It was the case in PoE and I see no reason why it shoudn't work now. A Fighter/Druid already could use Two Weapon Style for faster attack speed when shifted in beta 1-3.

 

I didn't test if the Haymaker works with natural weapons - maybe not, since claws etc. are not really considered unarmed - or don't work with unarmed abilites like Novices/Transcendent Suffering (PoE and Deadfire) or unarmed bonus items like Sandals of the Forgotten Friar (PoE).

[theBalthazar]

So +1 penetration for each additionnal damage with FoD (fire and corrode = +2) ?

 

crazy ! Ideally I would like always have this situation of combination. Discovery of good combinations of multiclass is what I prefer in that kind of game (like multiclass in NWN1 and 2). Unfortunately sometimes the stackings rules break a little atmosphere. But good news !

 

The idea was that you could switch into the modal to suit the combat, but not give a huge passive benefit. Your examples are all massive benefits I wouldn't want to turn off. I do agree however that the modals give penalties that are too large to be worth much. 

 

 

That said, that was only few ideas to put in a light what I say by speaking of "uniques abilities". Because if you add 4 poor and bad abilities, even a single class only invest on theses industrial abilities, nothing more.

 

"True" abilities are abilities with a powerful and good concept. The new ability retribution for example, is the perfect example of simple and creative new thing. A really true and enjoyable ability.

 

Duplicate old POE1 talent bonuses is not particularly creative. A cool thing would have been Snake reflexes = +5 reflex AND +1 dexterity. To make the player think. Guaranteed effect...

 

But this problem is the same for one of the new proposition : the 5% of pure dodge is sympathic but not really appealing. 95 % chance that it does not fire... You cannot count on this. And you have also a 5 % hit to crit. So, of the specific part of hit. Like what arround 2.5 % more critical ?

 

Dirty fighting should be at 20 %.

And this at 10 %. Minimum...

 

In the same intention, that's why nobody will never take the evolution of aura of paladin (zealous focus) But no, Obsidian refuse to increase this value. However in exchange of 2 abilities points (it is a heavy invest...), 10 %  would be perfect. Ok, the first you have a package of 3 things (but only one active at a time), but the second invest is just for that.

 

Same for Fighter. There is a bad gamer will take the +2 healing each 3s ? (evolution) Nobody will take that. So yeah, you have the illusion of choice but not really a true choice.

 

+5 per 3s seems already perfect, sadly. 

 

Obsidian does not know how to lure the fish... The second bonus must always 50 or 60 % of the final value. If it is 35 % of the final value, it is more complicated. Especially that it's nice, but not totally decisive ability. Like often with Obsidian. So 35 % is not attractive.

 

You can to boast of a diminushing return like Dark souls yes. But not with only two level of evolution like here. Dark souls you have 1-40 points to invest in one stat to start the diminushing return.

 

In Witcher 3, it is not complicated, each point have the same value. Logical, implacable, indiscutable. In Witcher 2, in magic branch, "control over the power" for example is at 30 % of the final value with +3 damage at the first level (1/2) and +10 damage with the second (2/2).

 

All theses examples work far better than Pillars for me.

Edited March 31, 2018 by theBalthazar

[PatrioticChief]

I agree. I think passive have the opportunity to really make some of those sub-classes unique and exciting and they just aren't willing to be creative or bold enough with them. 

[Aramintai]

Yea, it's a shame that passives are basically the same across the board for all classes. I'd hoped for more uniqueness for each class, but I guess it's all stuffed in the active abilities, which aren't new either, for the most part. So basically, we got what we had in POE1 with minimal innovation, stacked in a different looking interface for better progression planning, that's all  .

[Wormerine]

Yea, it's a shame that passives are basically the same across the board for all classes. I'd hoped for more uniqueness for each class, but I guess it's all stuffed in the active abilities, which aren't new either, for the most part. So basically, we got what we had in POE1 with minimal innovation, stacked in a different looking interface for better progression planning, that's all  .

Well... wasn’t that what people wanted when they rioted for passives? “But in PoE1” was the most common argument. My biggest disappointment is that gunner perk is still not available to my singleclass cipher.

 

Ideally every class would have an individual progression with wide range of uniqu active abilities and passives allowing for variety of builds in singleclass and some interesting balanced combinations when multiclassing. But that’s ain’t gonna happen. I am trying to think of one unique passive I would like to see that wouldn’t completely break the game, and I am coming up empty.

[theBalthazar]

There is too few passives abilities.

 

On the paper, I am for to deal with "ex-talents of POE1 becoming unique."

 

But here, there is a scam : it is severely lacking of choice.

 

And Obsidian reinjected some stews to content single class.

 

But EVEN in single class, there is hardly more choice... And multiclass, with the reclassing of few abilities become a real strangulation to do a good choice.

 

OR you accept to deal with +10 in willpower, +25 disengaging, +15 % of stride and others poops... even if you don't want put in this.

 

A choice is between 2 choices interresting. The measure is : a good panel in single class and a great panel in multiclass.

 

Actually this is bad in both for physical classes. Wizard is now the only exception.

 

Ideally, it missing 1-2 uniques passives abilities per line !

 

this grib of POE1 transplanted to POE2 does not work because the cake is too small, the parts are too small.

 

Where is the +6 of accuracy of barbarian ? Obsidian think he can take things away when it's already hard to choose! : p

 

You think it is a non-choice ? It is exacly the OPPOSITE !^^ If you create more interresting passives abilities, +6 in accuracy become not necessarily an immediate choice. But if there is a lack of choice : YES, all players will take this essential. Obsidian take the problem in the wrong way.

Edited April 3, 2018 by theBalthazar

[dunehunter]

I think a lot PoE 1 talents are not returned right? Like a lot priest special talents, paladin special talents, fighter and rogue ones. Would like to see them come back in the real game.

[George_Truman]

Is +10 to a defense bad? I loved those talents in PoE1