Does Obsidian plan to address the underpowering of mage weapons such as Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff, etc?

[Stardusk78]

I had this idea for a Battlemage build originally but as such weapons turned out to be less than desireable I dropped it quickly. Has Obsidian talked about this at all?

[daven]

There is a very important reason for this, but I have to go over there now.

[JerekKruger]

To quote Josh:

 

... most weapon summons have been moved from Long to Average cast (I’ll say this is against my better judgment, because those weapons are ludicrously powerful IME).

 

So they're going to become faster cast but I wouldn't hold your breath for anything more.

 

Now I'd say their actual power varies depending on which weapon you're looking at. Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff is a decent weapon (draining plus a scaling quality modifier) but I find it hard to believe it's ludicrously powerful.

 

Meanwhile Citzal's Spirit Lance is extremely powerful, at least in some combinations and in its current form. This is because, much like Barbarian Carnage in PoE (but not in Deadfire) the AoE effect of the Spirit Lance can proc various on hit effects which, when combined with some multiclass combinations, is very powerful (the same is true of the Minor Blights I believe).

 

As for non-Wizard summonables: Firebrand is garbage (with an instant cast it would be situationally useful for a Priest of Eothas, though not worth choosing for a Druid) whilst the Priest Spiritual Weapons are very powerful (they have a huge lash which, currently, increases spell damage, but even if it didn't it'd be good on a Priest who plans to use his weapons).

Edited March 27, 2018 by JerekKruger

[MaxQuest]

Firebrand is garbage (with an instant cast it would be situationally useful for a Priest of Eothas, though not worth choosing for a Druid) whilst the Priest Spiritual Weapons are very powerful (they have a huge lash which, currently, increases spell damage, but even if it didn't it'd be good on a Priest who plans to use his weapons).

I've noticed in some of tweets (if I remember correctly?) Josh mentioned that lashes won't be affecting spell damage in the next update. Wondering if this change would affect Aefyllath too.

As for Firebrand... in it's current state, I wouldn't use it even if it was instant cast, when compared to the rank 2 spells you can cast instead.

[The Sharmat]

Playing a muscle wizard in POE 1 right now and it's borderline overpowered. While I love the feel of wrecking an entire mob with citzal's spirit lance I have to say I would understand if the summoned weapons were nerfed somewhat.

[Wormerine]

Playing a muscle wizard in POE 1 right now and it's borderline overpowered. While I love the feel of wrecking an entire mob with citzal's spirit lance I have to say I would understand if the summoned weapons were nerfed somewhat.

Yeah, after so much praise coming from this forum I am picking all the magical weapons for my Wiz right now and they are a bit too good IMO. Jeez, these weapons hit hard. 

[Katarack21]

I want to play a fighter/mage that relies entirely on self-buffs and summoned weapons *SO BAD* but at current state in beta it's basically worthless. Hoping in next beta update, or in released game, that will be fixed.

[JerekKruger]

Playing a muscle wizard in POE 1 right now and it's borderline overpowered. While I love the feel of wrecking an entire mob with citzal's spirit lance I have to say I would understand if the summoned weapons were nerfed somewhat.

 

Definitely agreed for PoE. Had they imported them as is into Deadfire it would have been ludicrous once combined with multiclassing. A nerf was definitely in order. That said, I think they have gone too far with some. In particular Firebrand is awful (though a flaming lash similar to the Priest spiritual weapons would be make it decent) and Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff is probably not worth the spell cast over other spells most the time.

 

*It might be burning/piercing.

[JerekKruger]

I want to play a fighter/mage that relies entirely on self-buffs and summoned weapons *SO BAD* but at current state in beta it's basically worthless. Hoping in next beta update, or in released game, that will be fixed.

 

Once you reach Citzal's Spirit Lance I think it's viable. The Lance seemed underwhelming at first since it lost its huge base damage, but the ability to proc on hit effects on its AoE hits makes it extremely good at the moment. Even if that is removed as a bug it'll remain good.

 

At the moment my problem is its graphics. I believe they aren't the final version (just being the particle effects that'll live on top of the final model) but if what we have is the final version then it's a huge downgrade over PoE's Spirit Lance (which was very cool looking).

[Katarack21]

 

I want to play a fighter/mage that relies entirely on self-buffs and summoned weapons *SO BAD* but at current state in beta it's basically worthless. Hoping in next beta update, or in released game, that will be fixed.

 

Once you reach Citzal's Spirit Lance I think it's viable. The Lance seemed underwhelming at first since it lost its huge base damage, but the ability to proc on hit effects on its AoE hits makes it extremely good at the moment. Even if that is removed as a bug it'll remain good.

That is accurate, but getting *to* Citzal's Spirit Lance using nothing but self-buffs and Concelhauts Parasitic Staff is kind of a total bitch. Like..it really sucks. The drop in cast times will help with that, but as you mentioned won't fix all the problems.

[JerekKruger]

That is accurate, but getting *to* Citzal's Spirit Lance using nothing but self-buffs and Concelhauts Parasitic Staff is kind of a total bitch. Like..it really sucks. The drop in cast times will help with that, but as you mentioned won't fix all the problems.

 

If the staff (and other summoned weapons) we instant cast it'd be fine I think. It's not the best weapon around, but it's not terrible. However spending time summoning it does make it a lot less appealing. I'm probably going to mod all summoned weapons to instant cast in my game.

[SonicMage117]

I had this idea for a Battlemage build originally but as such weapons turned out to be less than desireable I dropped it quickly. Has Obsidian talked about this at all?

My uneducated guess is "If they are not working on it or addressing it now, they will after launch when they get more feedback."

[Katarack21]

[Boeroer]

Wow. What an elaborated answer. Very concrete.

 

It's basically like saying: "Because I really really think they are powerful."

 

Concelhaut's Staff only adds draining. So how can it cause +30% damage in a playthrough? Most likely because you will attack with it more often because you have the feeling you have to since you invested summoning time and a spell use. You would do the same damage with a regular quarterstaff of the same quality. This only shows that melee and offensive spells are still poorly balanced (assuming the staff wasn't buffed in Josh's game version). Or that you can't find a good quarterstaff...

 

No word about WHY they are supposed to be powerful. Firebrand is total crap. Not because of its values alone (it's a scaling great sword with a different damage type) but because you use summoning time,a spell use and an ability point for something that is as powerful as a normal weapon you can carry.

 

Minor Blights and Lance are powerful because:

 

- Blights profit from dual wielding speed if you carry a one handed melee weapon in your offhand

- Blights and Lance apply afflictions/lashes/on hits to all enemies that are hit in an AoE

- Blast does the same with all rods (there will most likely be very broken combos with unique or soulbound rods).

 

But the power of one or two summoned weapons don't make all summoned weapons powerful.

 

Concelhaut's Staff is ok in its current form if Draining works. It's lvl 1 and draining, besides the scaling, is good enough I think.

 

But Firebrand is crap.

 

Instead of saying that summoned weapons are powerful "well because!" over and over again I would like to see some more differentiated approaches.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Boeroer

[JerekKruger]

Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff has no quality enchantment between levels 1 and 4, is Fine between levels 5 and 8, and is exceptional between levels 9 and 12. Based on PoE I'd expect to find non-summoned weapons with those same quality enchantments at around the same level, or perhaps a little later (of course Deadfire might be different in this regard, with Fine and Exceptional weapons coming later).

 

Other than its scaling quality enchantment, it has no other damage boosting property (in beta3 at least).

 

So honestly I find Josh's post hard to believe. The same Battlemage wielding an equivalent quality non-summoned weapon has the same damage output, saves a few seconds time at the start of combat summoning their weapon (even with the changes it doesn't look like summonables will be instant cast) and has an additional level one spell cast to use on something else. The fact that Josh highlights his Wizard's ability to out damage Aloth dropping AoEs is quite telling since, at least in the current beta, an AoE Wizard is hardly the final word in damage dealing (if anything they're fairly poor).

 

So I agree: his reply feels very much like a dismissal.

[ghostwriter]

At the moment my problem is its graphics. I believe they aren't the final version (just being the particle effects that'll live on top of the final model) but if what we have is the final version then it's a huge downgrade over PoE's Spirit Lance (which was very cool looking).

 

 

Same, I loved the look of the staff and spirit lance from the first game. Could someone post some screenshots of the new summoned weapons please? 

[George_Truman]

It could be that summoned weapons are different in the build that Josh is playing. Maybe the right question to pose is: "what is the damage incentive of concelhaut's staff over a regular staff?".

[Wormerine]

It could be that summoned weapons are different in the build that Josh is playing. Maybe the right question to pose is: "what is the damage incentive of concelhaut's staff over a regular staff?".

Gain health on a hit?

[Boeroer]

At least in the beta. Granted, draining is more powerful in Deadfire than it was in PoE because there's only endurance (renamed to health) now. Healing in general is more powerful because of the new health mechanics and so is draining. Because of that I guess that a scaling quarterstaff with draining is ok for a lvl 1 spell. It's nothing spectacular or brutal though because I suspect you can find something better during the game  - which will make the Draining Staff pretty pointless (no problem if retraining is still possible).

[JerekKruger]

Same, I loved the look of the staff and spirit lance from the first game. Could someone post some screenshots of the new summoned weapons please? 

 

I actually prefer Concelhaut's Staff in Deadfire. Here's a screenshot of it:

 

 

As for the Spirit Lance, here it is:

 

 

I am hopeful (and fairly confident) that this isn't the final graphics for it, but rather just the particle effects that will eventually be applied to a 3D model.

 

It could be that summoned weapons are different in the build that Josh is playing. Maybe the right question to pose is: "what is the damage incentive of concelhaut's staff over a regular staff?".

 

In which case Josh could have said "we're testing a new version which is more powerful" and we'd have at least had hope that it would be improved in a future patch.

 

As for the damage incentive, there isn't one. It drains, which improves your survivability which, in turn, might allow you to do more damage, but it doesn't directly do more damage than the equivalent quality mundane staff.

Edited March 28, 2018 by JerekKruger

[George_Truman]

My point was that Josh justifies the staff by stating that his wizard does plenty of damage with it. Obviously you lose damage summoning the weapon, so its really a defensive cast. Would a player choose to cast a 5 second "sacrifice unique weapon traits for 20% damage drain" buff? I think the question could be posed differently to fish out a better answer.

Edited March 28, 2018 by George_Truman

[The Sharmat]

 

Same, I loved the look of the staff and spirit lance from the first game. Could someone post some screenshots of the new summoned weapons please? 

 

I actually prefer Concelhaut's Staff in Deadfire. Here's a screenshot of it:

 

 

As for the Spirit Lance, here it is:

 

 

I am hopeful (and fairly confident) that this isn't the final graphics for it, but rather just the particle effects that will eventually be applied to a 3D model.

 

It could be that summoned weapons are different in the build that Josh is playing. Maybe the right question to pose is: "what is the damage incentive of concelhaut's staff over a regular staff?".

 

In which case Josh could have said "we're testing a new version which is more powerful" and we'd have at least had hope that it would be improved in a future patch.

 

As for the damage incentive, there isn't one. It drains, which improves your survivability which, in turn, might allow you to do more damage, but it doesn't directly do more damage than the equivalent quality mundane staff.

 

I like that spirit lance better than the one in PoE. It's like someone turned the Soul Reaver into a polearm.

[JerekKruger]

I like that spirit lance better than the one in PoE. It's like someone turned the Soul Reaver into a polearm.

 

If you see it in motion it feels flat. That's why I suspect it's not the whole graphics, but rather just the particle effects (the whole thing is moving, no stationary parts at all).

[Lucaltuve]

I agree, Josh´s comment is extremely odd without any more context. I´m glad they´re at least making CPS faster to cast because otherwise it´s kind of a big blow as far as action economy goes. If the staff is a self healing tool that requires you to hit your opponent then you´re sacrificing the ability to cast spells while you make use of the summon. You´re also sacrificing damage in a way (because the point of the weapon is no longer damage but just draining). Also, the staff always had the tradeoff of putting you in the middle of a battle rather than as far away as possible and there doesn´t really seem to be an incentive to do that anymore with the lower damage? Maybe  it´s just because I haven´t played the beta, I admit to speak from ignorance in this case.

 

I can totally understand Josh being careful due to Deadfire´s multiclasses and POE1´s single class battlemages but at the same time I think this mostly hurts those of us that play regular wizards. A Wizard+Fighter Battlemage (or a frontline wizard or whatever we´re going to call single class Battlemages n Deadfire) will just use a good regular weapon since he has the stats, build and specializations for it. I mean, he´s losing the cool theme and perhaps the RP but at the end of the day he can probably replace the staff with a cool morningstar to go along with the plate armor he´s wearing. I mean, I thought CPS was supposed to be a single target crush damage tool for frail wizards at the tradeoff of being way too close to the huge angry ogre or whatever? I don´t mind nerfing it but making it just a draining tool seems wrong thematically.

[Archaven]

sorry for being off-topic. the character backgrounds are bland shade of darkness. it will be great if they can put some background behind the characters?