Does perception need a buff?

[thelee]

Without constant interrupts like in PoE, it feels like perception really needs a helping hand. Especially since, as I understand it, MightStrength's weapon damage bonus is multiplicative, making it comparatively stronger in Deadfire than in PoE1.

 

Humble suggestion: simply double the accuracy bonus (and penalty) from perception? You could do the same thing with the deflection bonus/penalty for resolve and restore StrengthMight to its former glory.

 

Maybe I'm wrong and someone has crunched the numbers otherwise. But something tells me that +1 accuracy just isn't on par with +3% weapon damage, spell damage, action speed, or some bonus aoe/duration.

[KDubya]

At accuracy = deflection each +1 accuracy gets you +2% damage.

 

This sounds worse than Strength's +3% but it doesn't consider when the extra accuracy gets you a crit which adds +50% to your penetration which may get you a multiplicative +30% damage for over-penetration. Plus as your accuracy gets lower than the deflection each additional accuracy helps more - its better to get more accuracy against the tough hard to hit enemies. All of this is hard (impossible?) to accurately calculate so most everyone just sticks with the simple acc=deflection and the +2% damage that that represents due to trading misses for crits.

 

So as is Perception is probably fine.

[Raenvan]

This idea has been already discussed in the following thread: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/95062-simple-rebalance-for-resperdexmight. Proposals included +1.5 accuracy per Perception, or increasing Crit damage bonus.

[Boeroer]

I don't thinks it's fine. The 2% are only additive as is the bonus from overpenetration - while STR/RES still work as multiplcative modifiers for damage (and in case of RES there's also healing and deflecton bonuses).

 

On a fighter you can for example lower PER and take Disciplined Barrage (and one of its upgrades)as well as Confident Aim and you won't feel much of a difference at lvl 6-9.

 

Every point of PER = +2 ACC - that would be better I guess. Especially since you can't stack ACC bonuses anymore as you could in PoE. And also because offensive casters can't raise PEN and more crits with spells would help them.

[mrmonocle]

I don't thinks it's fine. The 2% are only additive as is the bonus from overpenetration - while STR/RES still work as multiplcative modifiers for damage (and in case of RES there's also healing and deflecton bonuses).

 

On a fighter you can for example lower PER and take Disciplined Barrage (and one of its upgrades)as well as Confident Aim and you won't feel much of a difference at lvl 6-9.

 

Every point of PER = +2 ACC - that would be better I guess. Especially since you can't stack ACC bonuses anymore as you could in PoE. And also because offensive casters can't raise PEN and more crits with spells would help them.

+2 acc will be too op.

but a +1% penetration ignore damage would be nice.

 

for example you got 5 pen vs 7 armor this means -30% damage, but a 20 per char will ignore 10% which will result in -20% instead of -30%. This will open up a brand new roadmap for low pen weapon high per char builds.

Edited February 22, 2018 by mrmonocle

[dunehunter]

I think Perception is OK now because:

1. you cannot stack that much accuracy as u can in PoE 1 now.
2. affliction doesn't drop enemy deflection as it did in PoE 1.
3. Perception only gives around 2% damage yeah, but it also boost your CC accuracy.

Affliction that cause deflection reduction:

• Stun causes -10 all defense
• Perception affliction causes -10 deflecion
• Paralysis causes 50% hit/crit conversion

In currently beta, let's see which class has higher accuracy bonus.

• Barbarian - +6 accuracy with proficient weapon = +6
• Fighter - +5/10 from stance(doesn't stack with paladin aura), +5 accuracy from inspiration, 50% graze/hit conversion, 50% hit/crit conversion = +10/15
• Paladin - +5 from zealot focus(doesn't stack with fighter stance) = +5
• Ranger - +10 from mark, +10 from stalker's link = +20
• Priest - perception inspiration but buff is slow = +5
• Wizard - perception inspiration but buff is slow = +5

So you can see, only figher and ranger have decent accuracy bonus. All other classes either has only +5 or no accuracy bonus at all. I'd say Perception is not too weak now.

Edited February 22, 2018 by dunehunter

[Soulmojo]

I think Perception is OK now because:

1. you cannot stack that much accuracy as u can in PoE 1 now.
2. affliction doesn't drop enemy deflection as it did in PoE 1.
3. Perception only gives around 2% damage yeah, but it also boost your CC accuracy.

Affliction that cause deflection reduction:

• Stun causes -10 all defense
• Perception affliction causes -10 deflecion
• Paralysis causes 50% hit/crit conversion

In currently beta, let's see which class has higher accuracy bonus.

• Barbarian - +6 accuracy with proficient weapon = +6
• Fighter - +5/10 from stance(doesn't stack with paladin aura), +5 accuracy from inspiration, 50% graze/hit conversion, 50% hit/crit conversion = +10/15
• Paladin - +5 from zealot focus(doesn't stack with fighter stance) = +5
• Ranger - +10 from mark, +10 from stalker's link = +20
• Priest - perception inspiration but buff is slow = +5
• Wizard - perception inspiration but buff is slow = +5

So you can see, only figher and ranger have decent accuracy bonus. All other classes either has only +5 or no accuracy bonus at all. I'd say Perception is not too weak now.

 

I agree what you are saying, but you don't count that many ability doesn't target deflection, it targets other defenses. And in most and those defenses are much higher. Yes accuracy is in balance if you look at attacks agains deflection, but I don't think it is against other defenses. Especially because many class has access to +20 affliciton defense, and +10 bonus to one defense raising the bar even higher.

All in all though I'm on your side on this. I would much rather see secondary bonuses on stats, like bonus to healing received, reduced affliciton duration, bonus affliction duration... and other stuff like those.

 

These would be very much useful.

They don't seem to be strong at first glance, but if you can shake off a paralyze or stun affliction sooner for example, that could be the difference between party wipe and living.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Soulmojo

[JFutral]

I think Perception is OK now because:

1. you cannot stack that much accuracy as u can in PoE 1 now.
2. affliction doesn't drop enemy deflection as it did in PoE 1.
3. Perception only gives around 2% damage yeah, but it also boost your CC accuracy.

Affliction that cause deflection reduction:

• Stun causes -10 all defense
• Perception affliction causes -10 deflecion
• Paralysis causes 50% hit/crit conversion

In currently beta, let's see which class has higher accuracy bonus.

• Barbarian - +6 accuracy with proficient weapon = +6
• Fighter - +5/10 from stance(doesn't stack with paladin aura), +5 accuracy from inspiration, 50% graze/hit conversion, 50% hit/crit conversion = +10/15
• Paladin - +5 from zealot focus(doesn't stack with fighter stance) = +5
• Ranger - +10 from mark, +10 from stalker's link = +20
• Priest - perception inspiration but buff is slow = +5
• Wizard - perception inspiration but buff is slow = +5

So you can see, only figher and ranger have decent accuracy bonus. All other classes either has only +5 or no accuracy bonus at all. I'd say Perception is not too weak now.

 

What am I missing? You say Perception is okay and not too weak. But all those numbers say to me it is too weak, especially if the priest and wizard buff is too slow.

 

(A bit of a tangent as this response makes me think of this: Just a bit of a cry for more attention to Wizards as specialized spell casters. Why aren't spells considered for weapon proficiency instead of weapons for Wizards? Just a thought for another thread obviously. Maybe as an option at character creation so the player has the choice, especially if multi-classing—weapon proficiency or spell proficiency.)

 

Joe

[Wormerine]

Isn’t the idea to target weak defences? If enemy has over hundred fortitude, you are not supposed to target him with abilities attacking fortitude.

[dunehunter]

 

I think Perception is OK now because:

1. you cannot stack that much accuracy as u can in PoE 1 now.
2. affliction doesn't drop enemy deflection as it did in PoE 1.
3. Perception only gives around 2% damage yeah, but it also boost your CC accuracy.

Affliction that cause deflection reduction:

• Stun causes -10 all defense
• Perception affliction causes -10 deflecion
• Paralysis causes 50% hit/crit conversion

In currently beta, let's see which class has higher accuracy bonus.

• Barbarian - +6 accuracy with proficient weapon = +6
• Fighter - +5/10 from stance(doesn't stack with paladin aura), +5 accuracy from inspiration, 50% graze/hit conversion, 50% hit/crit conversion = +10/15
• Paladin - +5 from zealot focus(doesn't stack with fighter stance) = +5
• Ranger - +10 from mark, +10 from stalker's link = +20
• Priest - perception inspiration but buff is slow = +5
• Wizard - perception inspiration but buff is slow = +5

So you can see, only figher and ranger have decent accuracy bonus. All other classes either has only +5 or no accuracy bonus at all. I'd say Perception is not too weak now.

 

What am I missing? You say Perception is okay and not too weak. But all those numbers say to me it is too weak, especially if the priest and wizard buff is too slow.

 

(A bit of a tangent as this response makes me think of this: Just a bit of a cry for more attention to Wizards as specialized spell casters. Why aren't spells considered for weapon proficiency instead of weapons for Wizards? Just a thought for another thread obviously. Maybe as an option at character creation so the player has the choice, especially if multi-classing—weapon proficiency or spell proficiency.)

 

Joe

 

 

Accuracy has diminishing effect, the higher your accuracy, the less useful it is. When the enemy deflection is high, accuracy becomes more important. That's why I say current Perception situation is ok. 

 

If there are a lot of way to boost your accuracy except raising Perception then it becomes a less useful stats. That is my understanding.

[Soulmojo]

You are forgetting that abilities and spells even those which does not do damage can crit and graze, e.g. more duration, or less if nothing else. You also get more penetration on attack and spells with crit which often helps reduce the no penetration penalty.

 

Therefore in all times you should have the highest possible accuracy especially as a spellcaster, becauase it increases the effect of your spells. Ofc much of the game is rng, but I never saw the downside of having super high accuracy. This is my understanding.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Soulmojo

[dunehunter]

 

I think Perception is OK now because:

1. you cannot stack that much accuracy as u can in PoE 1 now.
2. affliction doesn't drop enemy deflection as it did in PoE 1.
3. Perception only gives around 2% damage yeah, but it also boost your CC accuracy.

Affliction that cause deflection reduction:

• Stun causes -10 all defense
• Perception affliction causes -10 deflecion
• Paralysis causes 50% hit/crit conversion

In currently beta, let's see which class has higher accuracy bonus.

• Barbarian - +6 accuracy with proficient weapon = +6
• Fighter - +5/10 from stance(doesn't stack with paladin aura), +5 accuracy from inspiration, 50% graze/hit conversion, 50% hit/crit conversion = +10/15
• Paladin - +5 from zealot focus(doesn't stack with fighter stance) = +5
• Ranger - +10 from mark, +10 from stalker's link = +20
• Priest - perception inspiration but buff is slow = +5
• Wizard - perception inspiration but buff is slow = +5

So you can see, only figher and ranger have decent accuracy bonus. All other classes either has only +5 or no accuracy bonus at all. I'd say Perception is not too weak now.

 

I agree what you are saying, but you don't count that many ability doesn't target deflection, it targets other defenses. And in most and those defenses are much higher. Yes accuracy is in balance if you look at attacks agains deflection, but I don't think it is against other defenses. Especially because many class has access to +20 affliciton defense, and +10 bonus to one defense raising the bar even higher.

All in all though I'm on your side on this. I would much rather see secondary bonuses on stats, like bonus to healing received, reduced affliciton duration, bonus affliction duration... and other stuff like those.

 

These would be very much useful.

They don't seem to be strong at first glance, but if you can shake off a paralyze or stun affliction sooner for example, that could be the difference between party wipe and living.

 

 

Errrr so u agree with my point or not? You know that when enemy's defense is high, accuracy has nearly the same effectiveness as strength, which boost your DPS by around 3%, but when your accuracy goes higher or enemy defense goes lower, the relative gain u get from per accuracy is reduced, and eventually because much less effective.

 

So when u say that spells target other defense and these are much higher. You are proofing accuracy is not that weak so Perception should stay at its current stats

 

In summary, when you don't have efficient way to boost accuracy, accuracy will remain high efficiency. So I think Perception adding 1 accuracy is still OK.

Edited February 22, 2018 by dunehunter

[thelee]

I don't thinks it's fine. The 2% are only additive as is the bonus from overpenetration - while STR/RES still work as multiplcative modifiers for damage (and in case of RES there's also healing and deflecton bonuses).

Wait, are graze/crit damage modifiers still additive in Deadfire?

[Boeroer]

Graze is 50% and is multiplicative if I remember correctly - while crit is 25% and additive, but leads to *1.5 PEN as well which might lead to additional (additive) +30% damage due to overpenetration.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[thelee]

Graze is 50% and is multiplicative if I remember correctly - while crit is 25% and additive, but leads to *1.5 PEN as well which might lead to additional (additive) +30% damage due to overpenetration.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Sometimes I feel like having played PoE1 a lot is actually a hindrance, because I'm never sure what learned behavior I have to unlearn for PoE2.

[Boeroer]

Hahaha yeah, right?

[Soulmojo]

 

 

I think Perception is OK now because:

1. you cannot stack that much accuracy as u can in PoE 1 now.
2. affliction doesn't drop enemy deflection as it did in PoE 1.
3. Perception only gives around 2% damage yeah, but it also boost your CC accuracy.

Affliction that cause deflection reduction:

• Stun causes -10 all defense
• Perception affliction causes -10 deflecion
• Paralysis causes 50% hit/crit conversion

In currently beta, let's see which class has higher accuracy bonus.

• Barbarian - +6 accuracy with proficient weapon = +6
• Fighter - +5/10 from stance(doesn't stack with paladin aura), +5 accuracy from inspiration, 50% graze/hit conversion, 50% hit/crit conversion = +10/15
• Paladin - +5 from zealot focus(doesn't stack with fighter stance) = +5
• Ranger - +10 from mark, +10 from stalker's link = +20
• Priest - perception inspiration but buff is slow = +5
• Wizard - perception inspiration but buff is slow = +5

So you can see, only figher and ranger have decent accuracy bonus. All other classes either has only +5 or no accuracy bonus at all. I'd say Perception is not too weak now.

 

I agree what you are saying, but you don't count that many ability doesn't target deflection, it targets other defenses. And in most and those defenses are much higher. Yes accuracy is in balance if you look at attacks agains deflection, but I don't think it is against other defenses. Especially because many class has access to +20 affliciton defense, and +10 bonus to one defense raising the bar even higher.

All in all though I'm on your side on this. I would much rather see secondary bonuses on stats, like bonus to healing received, reduced affliciton duration, bonus affliction duration... and other stuff like those.

 

These would be very much useful.

They don't seem to be strong at first glance, but if you can shake off a paralyze or stun affliction sooner for example, that could be the difference between party wipe and living.

 

 

Errrr so u agree with my point or not? You know that when enemy's defense is high, accuracy has nearly the same effectiveness as strength, which boost your DPS by around 3%, but when your accuracy goes higher or enemy defense goes lower, the relative gain u get from per accuracy is reduced, and eventually because much less effective.

 

So when u say that spells target other defense and these are much higher. You are proofing accuracy is not that weak so Perception should stay at its current stats

 

In summary, when you don't have efficient way to boost accuracy, accuracy will remain high efficiency. So I think Perception adding 1 accuracy is still OK.

 

 

No I agree with you. 

 

I'm just saying that with spells where damage is not involved, translating accuracy to damage gained is hardly possible, and the value of accuracy is not diminished. Even the opposite, because the more accuracy you have the less rng is involved and the more likely you get longer duration.

And since these abilities and spells are facing fort. ref. will. the bonus you gain from perception is not in balance with like it is against deflection,  as fort refl and will are 50%-100% more than deflection usually.

 

And if you play with a character who's main focus is not damage based but afflicition based, for example begulier cipher with its charms and dominates, you have to have the max possible accuracy to be able to get your spells be top effective.

It is very painfull to see when your charm or dominate spell fails where you probably burned all your focus to cast, or see it graze for half duration... this is where relative accuracy efficiency never decreases, no matter how high or low the enemy defeneses compared to your acc.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Soulmojo

[Nail]

Don't forget that Perception is not only +acc, it's also allows you to see all the hidden things.

For instance quest "plucked fruit" - you won't see it on the shore without 18+ per.

I tend to maximize perception - hate to miss.

[MaxQuest]

Graze is 50% and is multiplicative if I remember correctly - while crit is 25% and additive, but leads to *1.5 PEN as well which might lead to additional (additive) +30% damage due to overpenetration.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

It depends from what point of view to look at it

 

From SneakAttack perspective: Graze and UnderPen is multiplicative; while Crit and OverPen are additive;

From Strength perspective: Graze and UnderPen is additive (with double inversion); while Crit and OverPen are multiplicative.

That's because:

- Sneak Attack, Crit, OverPen and other bonuses belong to preAdditive group; while

- Strength, Graze and UnderPen belong to postAdditive group.

 

Maybe I'm wrong and someone has crunched the numbers otherwise. But something tells me that +1 accuracy just isn't on par with +3% weapon damage, spell damage, action speed, or some bonus aoe/duration.

Yeah, it's not easy to answer your question without number-crunching.

 

From weapon-dps perspective +1 PER provides less damage increase than +1 STR does.

But PER also improves detection, and unlike STR also does indirectly increase spell-damage. So it makes one question how does a damage-oriented hybrid with 10(STR)/20(PEN)/10(RES) states does compare to a similar hybrid with 15(STR)/10(PEN)/15(RES).

 

At the same time yes, I do have a strong feeling that I get less from PER than I did in PoE1. And I am speaking about reliability. In PoE1 I knew that if I max PER, I can completely eliminate misses on that character. This doesn't happen in Deadfire though, because:

- base accuracy is lower

- spells come without added acc bonus

- threshold to graze was increased from 16 to 25

- there are no decent, quick and aoe soothing soft-cc spells, that would lower enemy defenses by a big amount; which you would use before landing your hard-cc

 

Personally I would like to see a minor buff to PER. Something like:

- One point of perception gives +1 acc, and lowers graze threshold by 2 (or at least by 1...)

 

---

And now, some number-crunching: (on relative gain from taking +1 ATTR)

 

 

* overPEN onCrit - assumes that you overpen on all crits

 

Conclusions:

- you really, really don't want to graze if you have high STR score, because grazes heavily dilute the STR bonus (due to double-inversion)

- unlike STR, DEX doesn't play well not only with maluses, but it is also dilluted if there are other bonuses. This happens because there are no groups, and all speed related coefficients are additive in the end.

- PER provides the least damage-bonus. And it becomes way worse once you have eliminated all misses. Because at that point you no longer trade misses for crits, but grazes for crits.

- But PER does affect both phys and spell damage; and helps landing offensive, non-damaging spells.

 

P.S Imho, what does PER need is something not damage oriented; but rather something that would improve the reliability of our crowd-control.

Edited February 23, 2018 by MaxQuest

[IndiraLightfoot]

[img=http://i.imgur.com/7SUTwut.gif]

 

Edited February 23, 2018 by IndiraLightfoot

[Raenvan]

It seems that Perception granting +1 Accuracy is a bit weak (about +2% DPS), but it would be overpowered with +2 Accuracy (+4% DPS).

 

On the other hand, STR and RES affect weapon/spell damage similarly (+3% DPS), but are otherwise asymmetric because RES also increases Deflection.

 

Moving +1 Deflection from Resolve to Perception (on the top of +1 Accuracy) could remedy both problems. In fact, such an effect should be naturally expected from Perception.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Raenvan

[CottonWolf]

Nah, that doesn't work. STR increases weapon autoattack damage, so it's already not symmetric with RES, which is limited to buffing abilities (at least as I understand it).

[BrettNLowe]

Somewhat off-topic, but . . .

 

"From SneakAttack perspective: Graze and UnderPen is multiplicative; while Crit and OverPen are additive;

From Strength perspective: Graze and UnderPen is additive (with double inversion); while Crit and OverPen are multiplicative.

That's because:

- Sneak Attack, Crit, OverPen and other bonuses belong to preAdditive group; while

- Strength, Graze and UnderPen belong to postAdditive group."

 

Ugh! This seems completely wrong to me. Crits, Grazes, and Pen bonuses/maluses should be in one group with Strength, Sneak Attack, and Soul Whip in another. Especially Sneak Attack - historically, that was supposed to be a source of damage that makes you less reliant on strength. If Strength and Sneak Attack are multiplicative, then you want muscle rogues.

 

Putting Soul Whip in that category also makes it so Ciphers don't have to worry as much about Strength and can focus on other stats.

 

Some other bonuses you could consider as to what makes sense. For example, Two-Handed Style makes sense to not be in the Str group - you want Str to be multiplicative with it so 2-handers value Str rather than devalue it.

[MaxQuest]

Especially Sneak Attack - historically, that was supposed to be a source of damage that makes you less reliant on strength. If Strength and Sneak Attack are multiplicative, then you want muscle rogues.

Yeap, completely agreed. And was suggesting the same.

 

Putting Soul Whip in that category also makes it so Ciphers don't have to worry as much about Strength and can focus on other stats.

Agreed again.

 

Some other bonuses you could consider as to what makes sense. For example, Two-Handed Style makes sense to not be in the Str group - you want Str to be multiplicative with it so 2-handers value Str rather than devalue it.

I've found the THS of use on my cc-cipher with flat might in PoE1. But generally am ok with it being both additive or multiplicative there.

For Deadfire though I would probably prefer it being additive with STR (at least in beta 3), as ciphers focused on spell-damage and resolve would like such a boost.

 

Ugh! This seems completely wrong to me. Crits, Grazes, and Pen bonuses/maluses should be in one group with Strength, Sneak Attack, and Soul Whip in another.

Crits and grazes belonging to one group - would be only natural.

Same goes for overPEN and underPEN modifiers.

And as already mentioned SA and SW being additive with STR, would enable sneaky rogues / ciphers with flat might. It felt good in PoE1, could be same in Deadfire.