WTF are sidekicks?

[morhilane]

 

Still waiting what's supposed to be so deep about the mention of a baby. btw: Babies are more likely to end the romance.

 

One of these days we'll see a sequel where the baby you create will grow up to become the protagonist. Or perhaps the grandparent of the protagomist. I.e. a dynasty tale.

 

You won't even need a sequel. The game Kynseed, once released, will allow you to get married, have kids, age and die and then play as one of the kid.

[Yosharian]

I mean, this is my subjective opinion, but...

 

I don't think the Pillars companions were likeable at all.  Durance comes off as a terrible bore.  Aloth is a whiny brat.  Kana is too jolly, I feel like I'm partying with a Teletubby when he's around.  Sagani is also boring.  Grieving Mother was quite interesting, but too distant to really bond with.  Hiravias is a lot of fun, I like him.  Pallegina... I dunno, I can't remember any interesting conversations with her but I guess she's ok.  Eder is pretty cool.

 

Compared to Baldur's Gate 2, the Pillars companions are really bland and uninteresting.

 

I can't recall anything as interesting as:

 

• Jan Jansen's constant references to turnips, bloody hilarious
• Edwina.  End of story.  Although honestly Edwin is a constant source of amusement.
• Korgan just generally being an ****/badass.
• Minsc, I mean come on, need I say more.
• Viconia just generally being really hard to please, and a really interesting glimpse into the Drow culture.

 

That said, BG2 has it's fair share of boring companions too.  I feel like they were all far more fleshed out than Pillars' companions, though.

 

Again, this is just my subjective opinion.

[Mikeymoonshine]

I mean, this is my subjective opinion, but...

 

I don't think the Pillars companions were likeable at all.  Durance comes off as a terrible bore.  Aloth is a whiny brat.  Kana is too jolly, I feel like I'm partying with a Teletubby when he's around.  Sagani is also boring.  Grieving Mother was quite interesting, but too distant to really bond with.  Hiravias is a lot of fun, I like him.  Pallegina... I dunno, I can't remember any interesting conversations with her but I guess she's ok.  Eder is pretty cool.

 

Compared to Baldur's Gate 2, the Pillars companions are really bland and uninteresting.

 

I can't recall anything as interesting as:

 

• Jan Jansen's constant references to turnips, bloody hilarious
• Edwina.  End of story.  Although honestly Edwin is a constant source of amusement.
• Korgan just generally being an ****/badass.
• Minsc, I mean come on, need I say more.
• Viconia just generally being really hard to please, and a really interesting glimpse into the Drow culture.

 

That said, BG2 has it's fair share of boring companions too.  I feel like they were all far more fleshed out than Pillars' companions, though.

 

Again, this is just my subjective opinion.

 

As people have already said though some of those characters did not have all that much depth. Many are one note characters, a pretty great one note but it doesn't change that. I can see why you prefer them though, Pillars has an issue where it isn't very accessible and can seem kinda boring. All the characters have their own unique and for the most part pretty complex personal conflicts though.  They exist in a darker setting than BG, I think Deadfire will be a bit more lighthearted and hopefully that means the characters will be easier to like.

[algroth]

I mean, this is my subjective opinion, but...

 

I don't think the Pillars companions were likeable at all.  Durance comes off as a terrible bore.  Aloth is a whiny brat.  Kana is too jolly, I feel like I'm partying with a Teletubby when he's around.  Sagani is also boring.  Grieving Mother was quite interesting, but too distant to really bond with.  Hiravias is a lot of fun, I like him.  Pallegina... I dunno, I can't remember any interesting conversations with her but I guess she's ok.  Eder is pretty cool.

 

Compared to Baldur's Gate 2, the Pillars companions are really bland and uninteresting.

 

I can't recall anything as interesting as:

 

• Jan Jansen's constant references to turnips, bloody hilarious
•  
• Edwina.  End of story.  Although honestly Edwin is a constant source of amusement.
•  
• Korgan just generally being an ****/badass.
•  
• Minsc, I mean come on, need I say more.
•  
• Viconia just generally being really hard to please, and a really interesting glimpse into the Drow culture.
•  

 

That said, BG2 has it's fair share of boring companions too.  I feel like they were all far more fleshed out than Pillars' companions, though.

 

Again, this is just my subjective opinion.

 

I have no qualms with what you write here, really, since a lot falls down to how we empathize or connect personally with each of these characters, with the exception of the part about the characters in Pillars being less fleshed out than those in Baldur's Gate II. That's just something I do not see at all, and is rather demonstrably untrue as well. Whilst there are certainly great moments or memorable qualities to all of the characters in Baldur's Gate II, the ones that actually show an arc or a transformation, or actually show many facets to their personality are few and far between, whilst *every* character in Pillars is made sure to have a well-developed arc and a personal story that connects to the many events pertaining to the story and setting. Minsc or Jan Jansen or Keldorn may all have likable personalities, but do they actually grow or develop throughout the journey? Does Minsc ever stop being the one-note (if still funny) quixotic hero who shares his every thought with his pet hamster? Keldorn at most takes the role of some sort of mentor for the young and brash paladin wannabe Anomen, but that hardly presents a change in his character from the "veteran paladin" - not even his brief stint with his family moves his character from this role or else. In Pillars even the likes of Kana, who's in my opinion by far the least fleshed out character in the original roster, is still one with a rich background, an inversion of his own to the "big race" fantasy archetype, and more importantly a character with motivations of his very own who, through his personal sidequest, can find a shift from his initially starry-eyed, optimistic and idealistic person to several of many outcomes that can lead him to adopting a more conservative and isolationist perspective, to a sullen individual with shattered hopes, or a man with more tempered ideals but with a stronger sense of conviction informed by his discovery and the answers presented to his questions. He has a philosophy and outlook of his own which he goes into in fair depth when engaging with him in conversation, which in turn also lends us the most comprehensive idea of Rauatai's culture, history and politics found in the game.

 

Now, overall I will say that I like Baldur's Gate II a great bit more than I do Pillars of Eternity, and sure, I do find some characters in the former more to my liking than some others in the latter. Still, more fleshed out they are definitely not. And again, I don't really hold this against the former either because, really, it was arguably the best (or second best) at this aspect in its time as well, and no one else was doing it quite like this at the time.

Edited March 5, 2018 by algroth

[huang]

Maybe the difference between NPCs in BG and Pillars 1 (and why BG party members are liked more by some) is really that the group of people in BG felt more like your friends. At least some of them. I remember a conversation with Jaheira, I wanted to remove her from the party temporarily, just to get someone in for doing their quest, and Jaheira was like "If you send me away now, this will be the last time we will see each other..." and I absolutely couldn't do it. We had been through so much together at that point (I essentially added her right away after Gorion mentioned her as an ally waiting for me at the friendly arms inn).

 

That's something you just don't have with the companions in Pillars 1, at least not to the same degree. Partially of course because Pillars 1 was a new story, a beginning, but maybe also because some of them felt more like people who came along because they had nothing better to do. I sincerely hope this is going to feel very differently in Pillars 2, especially with some of them being returning characters. I liked all of them (with some of them being favorites of course) and I appreciated their writing and quests, the only negative thing I can say about them, is that it didn't necessarily feel very... personal? Maybe that's exactly what they are trying to address with this new relationship mechanic, it certainly sounds as if it is doing just that.

 

I also think they chose well who will return in Pillars 2. I liked e.g. Sagani, but in my ending she lived a long and happy life with her family. I'm  happy for her. No need to drag her away from this. Really can't wait to find out, if getting Pallegina (I think she's great) back is going to feel like continuing to adventure with e.g. Jaheira from BG 1 to 2.

 

Damn is it still 4 weeks?!?

[Wormerine]

Compared to Baldur's Gate 2, the Pillars companions are really bland and uninteresting.

 

I can't recall anything as interesting as:

 

 

• Jan Jansen's constant references to turnips, bloody hilarious
• Edwina.  End of story.  Although honestly Edwin is a constant source of amusement.
• Korgan just generally being an ****/badass.
• Minsc, I mean come on, need I say more.
• Viconia just generally being really hard to please, and a really interesting glimpse into the Drow culture.

 

That said, BG2 has it's fair share of boring companions too.  I feel like they were all far more fleshed out than Pillars' companions, though.

 

Again, this is just my subjective opinion.

Yeah, we definitelly disagree based on personal preferences. I will give you that: many of companions in PoE aren’t likeable. Even lovely Eder, has a darker uncomfortable racist side to him. And that’s fine. That is what I like, that is depth. That’s what I find engaging.

 

I like all the things you listed form BG. But those are merely entertaining. Things to chuckle at and move on. It’s like a marvel movie - colourful, energetic but won’t stay with me for long.

[huang]

 

with the exception of the part about the characters in Pillars being less fleshed out than those in Baldur's Gate II. That's just something I do not see at all, and is rather demonstrably untrue as well. Whilst there are certainly great moments or memorable qualities to all of the characters in Baldur's Gate II, the ones that actually show an arc or a transformation, or actually show many facets to their personality are few and far between, whilst *every* character in Pillars is made sure to have a well-developed arc and a personal story that connects to the many events pertaining to the story and setting.

 

 

Totally, couldn't agree more.

[Koth]

I guess what I'm struggling to come to terms with is the fact that:

 

a) We all know that a party built with custom made characters will be vastly superior from a gameplay perspective to the companions provided, but...

 

b) The incentive to take the companions is the role playing story lines and companion quests / romances and interactions that they provide.

 

So where do sidekicks fit in? They seem to me to be the worst of both cases. They can only be partially customised (like companions), but they do not offer the same level of interaction and story as the companions...

 

So what am I missing here? Why would someone take them over either a pre-made character or another companion? I'm not trying to be snide here, I'm genuinely interested as to what others believe that they offer to the game.

 

Thoughts?

[Stuurminator]

So what am I missing here? Why would someone take them over either a pre-made character or another companion? I'm not trying to be snide here, I'm genuinely interested as to what others believe that they offer to the game.

 

My guess is that, from a player's standpoint, they're likeable in a way that's good in small doses and doesn't wear out its welcome. More is not always better, and sometimes a superficial but charming character can provide a nice counter-balance or even be the most likeable character in their own right.

[Boeroer]

Point a) is not true in general, at least not for PoE. Official Companions start 1 level above hired adventurers which is a big advantage in the early game. And later on the game gets so easy that the non-optimized stats don't matter at all and also the impact of stats compared to the impact abilities and items have is negligible.

 

A reason to hire adventurers can be that a certain companion comes pretty late - so let's say you want a rogue in the party but Devil of Caroc comes so late - you'd take a hireling rogue. Sidekicks may give you the possibility to choose from a wider variety of classes (as party members) and still have banter and talks and not a bland and kinda soulless bot.

 

Also: Sidekicks have quests. That alone might make it worthwhile to take them with you.

[Yosharian]

Point a) is not true in general, at least not for PoE. Official Companions start 1 level above hired adventurers which is a big advantage in the early game. And later on the game gets so easy that the non-optimized stats don't matter at all and also the impact of stats compared to the impact abilities and items have is negligible.

 

A reason to hire adventurers can be that a certain companion comes pretty late - so let's say you want a rogue in the party but Devil of Caroc comes so late - you'd take a hireling rogue. Sidekicks may give you the possibility to choose from a wider variety of classes (as party members) and still have banter and talks and not a bland and kinda soulless bot.

 

Also: Sidekicks have quests. That alone might make it worthwhile to take them with you.

 

Path of the Damned is not so easy that stats don't matter.

 

I have Durance in my party right now and his low Perception is a constant bane (his offensive spells always miss) while his high Resolve is almost useless.

 

It's arguably the case that such poor stats can be negated somewhat lategame but to say that they don't matter is wrong in my opinion.

 

Of course if you're not playing on POTD then sure, you can win with 6 potatoes.

 

My problem is that I take great pleasure in optimizing all of my party, not just my main character, and having non-optimized characters drives me nuts.  Yet, I also like having the banter and so on that companions bring.

 

So I agree completely with Koth, sidekicks seem to be the worst of both worlds.

[Boeroer]

PotD is hardest in the early game. One level difference is a bigger advantage than min-maxed stats. After Defiance Bay the game gets easier and easier (with some spikes like bounties and dragons) - also on PotD.

 

Durance has 9 PER. Since he's one level above hirelings, he gets more spells. He also gets +3 base accuracy and +1 ACC per char level for all spells, so +4 compared to a hireling. Bringing Durance (when we talk about PER/accuracy) is like bringing a hireling with 13 PER - but with less spells, -3 to all defenses, -12 endurance and -48 health.

 

Also since Durance is one level above hirelings he can have Inspiring Radiance sooner - which makes the game a lot easier in the beginning of the game, especially on PotD. Party-wide +10 ACC which stacks with things like Zealous Focus is golden - the sooner you can get it the better. And with +10 ACC Durance's offensive spells should't miss that often, too.

 

If you give him a shield and hatchet and concentrate on casting then his RES is not bad. He seldomly gets interrupted and the higher deflection helps with swarmers like shadows, phantoms and shades who won't see him as primary target.

 

So I always want to interject when somebody says that hirelings are vastly superior. You don't need them for PotD (if it's only power you're concerned about).

 

Anyway: there are some good reasons why one would want customized adventurers. Like you said it can be fun to build a whole party on your own. I liked Icewind Dale because of that. But being superior to official companions is not a real reason, more like a surmised one.

 

Still speaking about PoE - I have no idea how hirelings will fare against official companions in Deadfire, but in the beta they are also 1 level below. So it seems the situation didn't change much.

 

Sidekicks have a similar level of interactivity like official companions in PoE. The official companions in Deadfire now get more interactivity, including relationsships and so on. If you're doing multiple playthroughs without hireling-bots you might want to have a little bit of variety.

 

edit: typos

Edited March 6, 2018 by Boeroer

[malchiorita]

I mean, this is my subjective opinion, but...

 

I don't think the Pillars companions were likeable at all. Durance comes off as a terrible bore. Aloth is a whiny brat. Kana is too jolly, I feel like I'm partying with a Teletubby when he's around. Sagani is also boring. Grieving Mother was quite interesting, but too distant to really bond with. Hiravias is a lot of fun, I like him. Pallegina... I dunno, I can't remember any interesting conversations with her but I guess she's ok. Eder is pretty cool.

 

Compared to Baldur's Gate 2, the Pillars companions are really bland and uninteresting.

 

I can't recall anything as interesting as:

 

• Jan Jansen's constant references to turnips, bloody hilarious
• Edwina. End of story. Although honestly Edwin is a constant source of amusement.
• Korgan just generally being an ****/badass.
• Minsc, I mean come on, need I say more.
• Viconia just generally being really hard to please, and a really interesting glimpse into the Drow culture.

That said, BG2 has it's fair share of boring companions too. I feel like they were all far more fleshed out than Pillars' companions, though.

 

Again, this is just my subjective opinion.

So much this. I'm playing bg2 again right now and well... (almost) every character have a unique personality, their interaction with other companions and other npcs are cool and define each of them very well, they develop through the story (again not all of them, but surely aerie, anomen, viconia above all other).

 

On poe, on the other hand... I think eder is the only one i liked. Hrivias had a cool concept but ir was poorly developed imho, durance just talked nonsense all the time, aloth was annoying af, pellegina... I dont think i remember a single line of her dialogues or something that define her personality...grieving mother literally dont speak with other companions. All of them just seem to be easily forgettable and unglued from each other and the surrounding world (while on bg2 it seems all tied togheter) .

 

Oh well, i just hope they did better this time. The only sure thing is that i not gonna buy the game on day 1 and will wait for reviews.

Edited March 6, 2018 by malchiorita

[Wormerine]

durance just talked nonsense all the time

[Yosharian]

 

durance just talked nonsense all the time

 

Haha cute meme too bad he's absolutely right 

 

Durance spouts the most nonsensical **** ever

Edited March 6, 2018 by Yosharian

[Wormerine]

 

 

 

 

Haha cute meme too bad he's absolutely right 

 

Durance spouts the most nonsensical **** ever

[non-sens, -suh ns] 

noun

1.

words or language having little or no sense or meaning.

2.

conduct, action, etc., that is senseless, foolish, or absurd

 

 

No, stop assigning traits to PoE companions which are not true. If you gonna criticize, please do so, but at least put a tiny bit of effort to recognize why you don't like them, instead of writing easily debunkable accusations. Yes, they are not likable. Yes, they are not fully formed until their conflict is fully revealed near the end of the game. But they are neither shallow, poorly developed and all banter and conversation their provide has content, reason, logic and consistency.

 

Jan Jensen talks nonsense. Its fun nonsense but its nonsense notheless - "He loves to chat, but his stories are rarely coherent and make little logical sense. His stories usually revolve around made-up relatives that he makes up just for the given case and serve the sole purpose of amusing himself and/or his companions. Thus, he avoids giving out any information about his true beliefs and goals (if there are any)."

 

Everything that Durance says is consistant with his character, history, world viewpoints, fears and goals. You learn about him, he learns about you, he is a horrible being but everything he says makes sense.

Edited March 6, 2018 by Wormerine

[Yosharian]

 

 

 

 

 

Haha cute meme too bad he's absolutely right 

 

Durance spouts the most nonsensical **** ever

[non-sens, -suh ns] 

noun

1.

words or language having little or no sense or meaning.

2.

conduct, action, etc., that is senseless, foolish, or absurd

 

 

No, stop assigning traits to PoE companions which are not true. If you gonna criticize, please do so, but at least put a tiny bit of effort to recognize why you don't like them, instead of writing easily debunkable accusations. Yes, they are not likable. Yes, they are not fully formed until their conflict is fully revealed near the end of the game. But they are neither shallow, poorly developed and all banter and conversation their provide has content, reason, logic and consistency.

 

Jan Jensen talks nonsense. Its fun nonsense but its nonsense notheless - "He loves to chat, but his stories are rarely coherent and make little logical sense. His stories usually revolve around made-up relatives that he makes up just for the given case and serve the sole purpose of amusing himself and/or his companions. Thus, he avoids giving out any information about his true beliefs and goals (if there are any)."

 

Everything that Durance says is consistant with his character, history, world viewpoints, fears and goals. You learn about him, he learns about you, he is a horrible being but everything he says makes sense.

 

 

Yes, it's nonsensical.

 

The only thing worse than the utter tripe Durance spouts is that he actually thinks he's being smart when he says it.

 

He is a self-important fool.

[Wormerine]

The only thing worse than the utter tripe Durance spouts is that he actually thinks he's being smart when he says it.

 

He is a self-important fool.

Exactly. I his journey to realization how false and blind he is ends up being one of the most satisying companion arcs I have experienced. Twisted, memorable character, used and discarted by his Goddes, who is trying to make sense of it. To explain lies and deception in a way which makes sense to him. Because he couldn't have been foolish, he couldn't have been deceived. More of that in Deadfire, please. 

[Tarlonniel]

I love the idea of sidekicks. BG2 nostalgia is part of it, but it's also that I like having so many awesome personalities around that I can't fit them all in the same party; it doesn't matter if they're not all equally fleshed out. It helps replayability immensely. At this point, prepping for Deadfire, I keep running through the first game with the same folks over and over (Aloth, Pallegina, Sagani, Kana) because everyone else has finally gotten on my last nerve, and hired adventurers are deadly boring. Sidekicks - especially if people can mod in their own! - sound perfect.

[Guest]

 

The only thing worse than the utter tripe Durance spouts is that he actually thinks he's being smart when he says it.

 

He is a self-important fool.

Exactly. I his journey to realization how false and blind he is ends up being one of the most satisying companion arcs I have experienced. Twisted, memorable character, used and discarted by his Goddes, who is trying to make sense of it. To explain lies and deception in a way which makes sense to him. Because he couldn't have been foolish, he couldn't have been deceived. More of that in Deadfire, please.

All of the companions left their homes as a test of faith in what they believed. As much as I liked the other side quests, Durance’s arguably has the most grit. Takes balls to write a fanatic without resorting to caricature.

[Frog Man]

Durance was the best-written companion, for the reasons yoU’ve All laid out.

 

The one thing that poster hit on the head was Pallegina. I wanted to love her due to her fantastical appearance and the fact that we don’t see many characters like her in games like this (black female Paladin), but I also can’t remember a single line of dialogue from her or defining character trait. A really poorly written companion, just a character with nothing memorable about her.

 

Durance on the other hand ... ‘saw you in the flames ...’

 

Or, ‘now to find a home for my other staff...’

[Guest]

Durance was the best-written companion, for the reasons yoU’ve All laid out.

 

The one thing that poster hit on the head was Pallegina. I wanted to love her due to her fantastical appearance and the fact that we don’t see many characters like her in games like this (black female Paladin), but I also can’t remember a single line of dialogue from her or defining character trait. A really poorly written companion, just a character with nothing memorable about her.

 

Durance on the other hand ... ‘saw you in the flames ...’

 

Or, ‘now to find a home for my other staff...’

You must have missed her conversation(s) with Verzano

[huang]

Well apparently not many people feel that way, but I liked Pallegina and I thought her conflict about, what would serve the republics best, was interesting to me. Maybe she's seen as less important because she's not tied all too much into the main story arc, but at least her ties to the republics made the world feel bigger - it was good to always know, that there were places outside the Dyrwood too. And I liked how she rather became a kind wayfarer than be a douche. :D Even if she's influenced otherwise, at least she was conflicted about it.

 

Also, other than Eder, who was just leaning against a tree or something (who probably just would have kept doing that, if the Watcher hadn't come along), she was busy doing all kinds of stuff. If the Watcher wouldn't have come along, she just would have continued with the next task on her agenda.

 

Furthermore, I think it didn't help identification with her a lot, that she too is only introduced hours into the game. Players who go to Raedric's Hold first, let alone those who start exploring the endless paths first, feel like she's only joining relatively late in the game. If one gets her as early as possible, there's less missed content with her - the same goes for all the other companions, of course.

[rjshae]

Furthermore, I think it didn't help identification with her a lot, that she too is only introduced hours into the game. Players who go to Raedric's Hold first, let alone those who start exploring the endless paths first, feel like she's only joining relatively late in the game. If one gets her as early as possible, there's less missed content with her - the same goes for all the other companions, of course.

 

Yes, this was also true of Hiravias. By the time he became available my party was more or less set, so I didn't include him until a later replay. When I did so, he immediately became one of my favorites.

[Guest]

Hiravias definitely pulls his weight in White March