gammaray444 Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 I like the weapon modals, but I think they need to be re-jigged a bit (at least the hatchet, which is what I was using). The hatchet modal is supposed to debuff accuracy on an enemy at the expense of damage output. However, I can activate it, get a 12 second debuff on an enemy, immediately deactive it, still get the 12 second debuff, and also have my damage returned to normal. So, now I have the best of both worlds for basically 10 seconds. I would think the idea behind a modal is choosing between two options with different strengths and weaknesses and not getting all the strengths and no weakness. Of course, I can also just not switch the modal on and off, but that isn't really my point. In summary: the strengths/weaknesses of a modal should immediately change and have no trailing effect when it is turned on and off. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hilfazer Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 I have a question about modals. Are they still in same stacking category as spells? Actually the first question should be: Do we have stacking categories at all? Vancian =/= per rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neotemplar Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 Is there a full list of weapon modals anywhere? Would be very nice if someone made it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesevillain Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 (edited) The modals aren't supposed switch instantly, they take some time to turn off, correct? If they're not doing that, that might be a bug. I would think the idea behind a modal is choosing between two options with different strengths and weaknesses and not getting all the strengths and no weakness. Definitely agree. In summary: the strengths/weaknesses of a modal should immediately change and have no trailing effect when it is turned on and off. Probably agree. Edited November 20, 2017 by cheesevillain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreaColombo Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 Some of the modals are too extreme in their effects, imo. Savage Attack, for example, gives too much extra damage in exchange for too much Accuracy. I would never use it unless I was mopping up under-levelled foes. 1 "Time is not your enemy. Forever is." — Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment "It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers." — Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boeroer Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 It's great with Devotions and some debuffs and if you can graze. Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarack21 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 It's great with Devotions and some debuffs and if you can graze. *EVERYTHING* becomes suddenly awesome if you throw on a buff and Dire Blessing. I'm still trying to think of a way to fix that problem without just giving graze back to everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDubya Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 It's great with Devotions and some debuffs and if you can graze. *EVERYTHING* becomes suddenly awesome if you throw on a buff and Dire Blessing. I'm still trying to think of a way to fix that problem without just giving graze back to everybody. Why should everyone get graze? Its a conditional racial benefit of Boreal Dwarves, a Fighter ability and the result of multiple buffing spells. If you want graze you can easily get access to it. If everyone had graze you'd have to change a lot of spells and abilities. Also using buffs that synergize well for your team should have great benefits, I mean that's one of the points of having a five man team instead of a single character isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarack21 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 It's great with Devotions and some debuffs and if you can graze. *EVERYTHING* becomes suddenly awesome if you throw on a buff and Dire Blessing. I'm still trying to think of a way to fix that problem without just giving graze back to everybody. Why should everyone get graze? Its a conditional racial benefit of Boreal Dwarves, a Fighter ability and the result of multiple buffing spells. If you want graze you can easily get access to it. If everyone had graze you'd have to change a lot of spells and abilities. Lack of graze is actually a big problem for spells. With the long cast times and no graze, casters often spend half the fight casting a spell that then misses entirely. This is a big change from PoE 1, where the graze ability let casters *hit more often*, for reduced effect, thus allowing them to successfully hit with spells more often. Did you play PoE 1 at all? I ask only because you are regularly responding to posters issues about the distributions of talents or abilities with "Well, that's x character types ability, why would y character type get it?" when we're discussing experiences in the past with the original game when they were *not* exclusive and why we feel they *still shouldn't be*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDubya Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 It's great with Devotions and some debuffs and if you can graze. *EVERYTHING* becomes suddenly awesome if you throw on a buff and Dire Blessing. I'm still trying to think of a way to fix that problem without just giving graze back to everybody. Why should everyone get graze? Its a conditional racial benefit of Boreal Dwarves, a Fighter ability and the result of multiple buffing spells. If you want graze you can easily get access to it. If everyone had graze you'd have to change a lot of spells and abilities. Lack of graze is actually a big problem for spells. With the long cast times and no graze, casters often spend half the fight casting a spell that then misses entirely. This is a big change from PoE 1, where the graze ability let casters *hit more often*, for reduced effect, thus allowing them to successfully hit with spells more often. Did you play PoE 1 at all? I ask only because you are regularly responding to posters issues about the distributions of talents or abilities with "Well, that's x character types ability, why would y character type get it?" when we're discussing experiences in the past with the original game when they were *not* exclusive and why we feel they *still shouldn't be*. Does Dire Blessing affect spells with Graze? If it does then that sounds like what the devs intended. If all spells get graze then what is the point of Dire Blessing for a caster and is this a problem? In PoE grazes on debilitating spells like paralyze were as good as a hit. Dragon slaying depended on buffing a caster who could land a graze that reduced one of the defenses such that the next spell could graze or even hit if lucky. It needed to be adjusted. Is the answer to have debilitating effects be downgraded one tier on a graze? What about duration, should it be reduced as well or is the tier reduction enough? Maybe adding inherent accuracy to certain (all?) spells is needed instead? Maybe the devs intend casters to get buffed first to obtain graze before they cast? PoE is a completely different game than Deadfire. They've changed most everything from health and endurance, grazing, armor, multi classing the list goes on. In PoE between general abilities and cross class abilities you could really blend the lines between the various classes. Rogues could almost get as tanky (at least as far as deflection) as a Fighter and still have their backstab as could spell casters. Now you need to multi class to get abilities beyond the main class. With the current system you need to keep the lines distinct in who gets access to what or else class distinctions gets blurred. The game systems are what they are. Its not as if any big changes are going to come from the Beta so wishing for a return to the systems of PoE are not going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarack21 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 It's great with Devotions and some debuffs and if you can graze. *EVERYTHING* becomes suddenly awesome if you throw on a buff and Dire Blessing. I'm still trying to think of a way to fix that problem without just giving graze back to everybody. Why should everyone get graze? Its a conditional racial benefit of Boreal Dwarves, a Fighter ability and the result of multiple buffing spells. If you want graze you can easily get access to it. If everyone had graze you'd have to change a lot of spells and abilities. Lack of graze is actually a big problem for spells. With the long cast times and no graze, casters often spend half the fight casting a spell that then misses entirely. This is a big change from PoE 1, where the graze ability let casters *hit more often*, for reduced effect, thus allowing them to successfully hit with spells more often. Did you play PoE 1 at all? I ask only because you are regularly responding to posters issues about the distributions of talents or abilities with "Well, that's x character types ability, why would y character type get it?" when we're discussing experiences in the past with the original game when they were *not* exclusive and why we feel they *still shouldn't be*. Is the answer to have debilitating effects be downgraded one tier on a graze? What about duration, should it be reduced as well or is the tier reduction enough? Actually, yes, I've seen that suggestion before and I think it's a really good one. A downgrade by one tier plus a shortened duration on a graze seems like a really good adjustment to mages that would help to compensate for the long cast times and lack of ability to increase spell penetration. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreaColombo Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 It's great with Devotions and some debuffs and if you can graze. True, but also prosaic—everything is better with buffs, thank you very much My issue is that many things appear to be balanced around the expectation that you'll be using buffs in conjunction with them. E.g. Savage Attack + Devotions for the Faitfhul. This makes the buff mandatory if you want to successfully use the ability. Never leave home without a Priest who has Devotions for the Faithful if you wanna use Savage Attack, and of course you have to wait until your Priest gets the spell. ... and this pigeonholes casters even more. They are already forced into picking "safe" spells at level up because they can access so few. If certain buffs are required to make specific abilities worthwhile, your casters become mere enablers (provided that they don't get interrupted during their ages-long casting times.) "Time is not your enemy. Forever is." — Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment "It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers." — Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boeroer Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Yes, but to be honest: once the bug with the false 1-sec recovery for one-handed weapons is patched (should be 3 secs - so a melee char can only hit you times while you cast a 6-sec spell instead of 6 times) they won't get interrupted as much anymore. Also I'm pretty sure there will be items like that give you casting speed and also concentration. There should better be some... 1 Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreaColombo Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Agreed; let's see how that plays out. I would still advocate that modals could be less extreme (and therefore less situational.) "Time is not your enemy. Forever is." — Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment "It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers." — Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvaren Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 I asked in different topic. Scepter proficiency grants Destructive Channeling modal +2 penetration and +20% damage. It works not only with regular attack of scepters but it affects all damaging spells too. Is it bug or it works as intended? Great sword modal skill is to extreme for me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wormerine Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Agreed; let's see how that plays out. I would still advocate that modals could be less extreme (and therefore less situational.) Isn’t it their point? You are not supposed to use them all the time, but each weapon brings its own utility? Someone with just a bit higher AR? Use mace to bash it down a bit, allowing othe characters to strike with higher damage. Someone is stunned and vonourable? Switch on lower /high damage to maximise profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draego Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 (edited) I actually dont like the weapon proficiencies that much. They should make these modals universal so you can apply what effect you want on any weapon you choose. Giving the player the choice again on what weapon combos they want instead of find the effect their class needs or wants and then saying well i guess i am using that weapon. Edited November 21, 2017 by draego Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancelor Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Isn’t having weapon related modals too restrictive? I mean a paladin would have to forfeit his aura to use them. Unless class abilities are no longer modals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breckmoney Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Isn’t having weapon related modals too restrictive? I mean a paladin would have to forfeit his aura to use them. Unless class abilities are no longer modals They're just a different set of modals. You can still use paladin auras, fighter stances etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary1986 Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 Can you choose between a few different modals for a certain weapon proficiency? Like if you choose to be pro in Greatswords, can you then choose out of a few modals? Or do you just get given the same 1 modal without any choice? --- Slightly off topic but, if i were to choose my fighter to be the subclass of Devoted ( https://pillarsofeternity2.wiki.fextralife.com/Devoted)would it matter at all if i soley knew i would only have him use pikes for the whole game? Cause the negative of being a Devoted says '' Only gain a single proficiency and no new proficiencies during level up''. Can you level up a proficiency? as in add another point to it to make you more proficient(?) in that weapon? Or is it just a 1 point thing as in you put a point in pikes and boom you are good to go and you get your 1 and only pike modal. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hilfazer Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 Each weapon type gets one and only one modal via proficiency and you're not choosing it. You can't level up proficiency. Vancian =/= per rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wormerine Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 Can you choose between a few different modals for a certain weapon proficiency? Like if you choose to be pro in Greatswords, can you then choose out of a few modals? Or do you just get given the same 1 modal without any choice? Right now, unless you are Devoted, you can use any weapon you want without any disadvantages. Grabbing proficiency allows you to use a singular modal of said weapon type, however doesn’t give you extra aim or damage with that weapon. There is no way of getting “more proficient” with a weapon. Devoted gets bonus to proficient weapon but gets disadvantages when using other ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary1986 Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 (edited) Cheers. Quick question If my character dual wields a dagger and a 1-H sword, then i used the 1-H sword modal, would the effects from the 1-H sword modal also affect the dagger? Edited January 26, 2018 by Gary1986 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boeroer Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 (edited) Howdy! No, only the sword. If you have both proficiencies (for sword AND dagger) you also get two buttons: one for each modal. So if you'd turn on both modals you would gain +2 PEN with the sword only and suffer a deflection penalty, but at the same time you would lower the damage of the dagger and get a bonus to deflection again. All in all you'd have +/-0 deflection, +2 PEN with the sword and a longer recovery phase after strikes with the dagger. Hope that helps. I'm not quite sure if the deflection malus stacks if you dual wield swords with the modal active... didn't test that. Or if the deflection bonus of daggers stack. They should... Edited January 26, 2018 by Boeroer Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunehunter Posted January 27, 2018 Share Posted January 27, 2018 Howdy! No, only the sword. If you have both proficiencies (for sword AND dagger) you also get two buttons: one for each modal. So if you'd turn on both modals you would gain +2 PEN with the sword only and suffer a deflection penalty, but at the same time you would lower the damage of the dagger and get a bonus to deflection again. All in all you'd have +/-0 deflection, +2 PEN with the sword and a longer recovery phase after strikes with the dagger. Hope that helps. I'm not quite sure if the deflection malus stacks if you dual wield swords with the modal active... didn't test that. Or if the deflection bonus of daggers stack. They should... Currently malus of modal doesn't stack, so you better dual wield two sword than one, because otherwise you only get +2 pen from one hand but received -20 deflection. Or use some weapon with less malus and a dagger in offhand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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