Health vs. Endurance/Health

[Hemmer]

Greetings,

so I briefly dipped into the Beta yesterday to see if the concerns regarding the "streamlined" iteration of the health system were justified and...

Yes, I don't like it at all, for mainly 2 (for now) reasons:

- It simply doesn't feel like PoE. With the injury/wound limit artificially set to some arbitrary number (4, is it?) it resembles Tyranny way too much, and obviously not in a good way.
Correct me if I'm wrong but in PoE you could accumulate a whole bunch of negative effects, afflictions, injuries, etc in much more subtle (and natural) increments before either or both endurance and health were decreased to such a degree that you had to take a rest. Or take the chance and continue on for a little longer, risking to be murdered during the next encounter.

- The tactical part is gone for the most part. Managing both endurance and health and pondering whether to heal up completely or take the gamble hoping that endurance will hold was both a thrill and a satisfactory experience, especially when pulling off the gamble and saving a restoration spell or a precious use of wound binding or field triage in the process.

[Boeroer]

YOu now can abuse healing without health loss like in PoE. If you can stack enough healing sources it's very hard to kill you and you can totally focus on offense.

 

I also liked the old system better. Wonder what made them change it.

[Breckmoney]

YOu now can abuse healing without health loss like in PoE. If you can stack enough healing sources it's very hard to kill you and you can totally focus on offense.

 

I also liked the old system better. Wonder what made them change it.

I think it's just that a lot of people didn't understand it. Obviously no one taking part in this beta is going to have that issue, though.

[cannondwarf]

I vastly prefer the old system, there's no purpose for resting without health and spell slots. The new cast times  also  feel cumbersome and makes playing a spellsword a chore.

[draego]

Ye thought the whole health/endurance management was nice improvement to POE1. Havent played enough beta to dismiss new system but definitely dubious

[Wormerine]

After completing first combat heavy area I must say that the new system feels less organic. However, I do enjoy combat itself much more so far. Recource management works very well. I didn't feel yet new system influencing combat just yet - while in lengthy combat scenarios in PoE depleteing your health on your tank was a thing, here you encounter the danger of running out of healing abilities. So far it works but I did find the original more elegant.

[Hemmer]

I also liked the old system better. Wonder what made them change it.

 

"Some people" not getting it, of course.

It's always because of a vocal minority that we can't have nice things or get to keep them, like in this case.

[morhilane]

New system means longer fights depends on how you manage your healing resources (for that encounter), not on how long it takes to reduce (POE1 version) health to 0. Which is an improvement in my book. In POE1 that forced you to reduce combat length, aka stack damage, in POE2 that means support has a more vital role.

 

The injuries are inconsequential as in rest to remove them which everyone will do after gaining 2. In fact, I think they should just go with health = 0 means character death at this point.

[dam]

Greetings,

 

so I briefly dipped into the Beta yesterday to see if the concerns regarding the "streamlined" iteration of the health system were justified and...

 

Yes, I don't like it at all, for mainly 2 (for now) reasons:

 

- It simply doesn't feel like PoE. With the injury/wound limit artificially set to some arbitrary number (4, is it?) it resembles Tyranny way too much, and obviously not in a good way.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in PoE you could accumulate a whole bunch of negative effects, afflictions, injuries, etc in much more subtle (and natural) increments before either or both endurance and health were decreased to such a degree that you had to take a rest. Or take the chance and continue on for a little longer, risking to be murdered during the next encounter.

 

- The tactical part is gone for the most part. Managing both endurance and health and pondering whether to heal up completely or take the gamble hoping that endurance will hold was both a thrill and a satisfactory experience, especially when pulling off the gamble and saving a restoration spell or a precious use of wound binding or field triage in the process.

 

 

Speaking from a main Monk's point of view here, I'm loving that they did away with the health/endurance pools.

Your monk could only go so far before being *forced* to rest, for no actual reason.

 

It does feel very different though, aye.

[dam]

 

I also liked the old system better. Wonder what made them change it.

 

"Some people" not getting it, of course.

It's always because of a vocal minority that we can't have nice things or get to keep them, like in this case.

 

 

That does feel like a very denigrating and base point of view.

Stating that devs have changed it because of a vocal minority is tantamount to accusing them of taking rash design decisions, on a whim.

 

Given the quality of POE at its release, and further along the years, we may safely say they are nothing like that.

 

 

I welcome the change for main tank characters, having to rest your warrior/monk/paladin just because he'd gone through one too many fights, although he never went below 10% endurance, felt bad.

[cannondwarf]

If health/endurance is gone, health regeneration should also be removed. DnD's health system is better than the new wound system imo, although PoE's health/endurance was better.

[DCParry]

 

I also liked the old system better. Wonder what made them change it.

 

"Some people" not getting it, of course.

It's always because of a vocal minority that we can't have nice things or get to keep them, like in this case.

 

 

Ah yes, the vocal minority. 

 

 

Let me guess, they also sneak into your house at night and molest your house plants, leave the refrigerator partly open, and hide your keys. 

 

 

We need a merchant in the beta selling Straw Men.  

[Hemmer]

May not have been the exact wording Josh Sawyer used when explaining why they ditched endurance/health for now, but the main reason allegedly was that (some) people didn't get it.

Which, of course, now, a couple years later, is totally absurd. Is there really anyone who has played PoE and still does not understand how endurance/health works? If anything they're risking that people won't get it again by replacing a familiar system with yet another one that's surely going to confuse the crap out of people.

[Wormerine]

May not have been the exact wording Josh Sawyer used when explaining why they ditched endurance/health for now, but the main reason allegedly was that (some) people didn't get it.

Which, of course, now, a couple years later, is totally absurd. Is there really anyone who has played PoE and still does not understand how endurance/health works? If anything they're risking that people won't get it again by replacing a familiar system with yet another one that's surely going to confuse the crap out of people.

The new system is very clear. And for the most part fulfills similar role. It might get more interesting once Rez is available - do I Rez my tank or DPS and have him fight weakened with 2 injuries and risk him dying or use the spell for something else and try to beat encounter with 4 characters?

[dam]

May not have been the exact wording Josh Sawyer used when explaining why they ditched endurance/health for now, but the main reason allegedly was that (some) people didn't get it.

 

Which, of course, now, a couple years later, is totally absurd. Is there really anyone who has played PoE and still does not understand how endurance/health works? If anything they're risking that people won't get it again by replacing a familiar system with yet another one that's surely going to confuse the crap out of people.

 

 

When POE released, people bitched about health/endurance because it detracted from BG/IWD/NWN.

For POE2 they're bitching about single health pools, because it detracts from POE.

What next, for POE3, people gonna bitch again 'cause devs reintroduce split pools ?

 

People bitch all the time, for whatever tiny reason they chance upon.

 

 

 

Besides, you're working under the assumption that anyone getting POE2 will have played POE1.

That is, from a business point of view, just not an acceptable premise.

A business wishes for people to buy their sequel, who haven't played the original title.

That simply means more customers.

 

Otherwise you're going to investors with your sales pitch sounding like :

"We hope that, amongst those who played POE, some will follow and buy the sequel; we don't really think anyone else will be interested tho, so, you know... give moneys nao".

[IndiraLightfoot]

I'm not sure how much Deadfire combat you guys have under your belts, but I feel this new system is at least as good as the old one in PoE1.

Your characters get injuries a lot (unknowingly, I've been fighting higher-level content, so I know), and when you don't have enough food or the right food, your characters stumble into the battle with lesser set health pools and other penalties. I had at least three exciting fights with three of my party members gimped (always those mercenaries - the character I made was tough as nails).

[Peter Bazooka]

I am one of the people that didn't like health/endurance when PoE was released because I thought it was confusing but after actually putting time into the game I came to really like it. I think it's a better system than just health now.

[daven]

Maybe give it a few days, let it digest and that. The new systems may grow on you.

[Quillon]

 

I also liked the old system better. Wonder what made them change it.

 

"Some people" not getting it, of course.

It's always because of a vocal minority that we can't have nice things or get to keep them, like in this case.

 

 

Vocal minority are the people who are here atm. Its the un-vocal wider audience; the other 999k or so who bought the game they are changing some mechanics for.

[Ryz009]

Yeah I actually like the health change but I play on normal for a reason XD

[demeisen]

I'd like to argue make an impassioned plea for a new-game screen checkbox.

​

​My preferences in order from best to worst:

​

​1. A POE1-like split with one regenerating and one non-generating resource.

​2. A single health resource which does not regenerate.

.​.. insert every other possible system here which isn't...

​n. Auto-regeneration of health (and most abilities) after fights.

​

A key aspect of the RPG experience since pen and paper D&D in the 70's is managing your party over the course of a whole dungeon delve.  It was supposed to feel like a journey.

​

​POE1 is at the top of the CRPG pack for me because it improved UI quality of life, without over-simplifying game dynamics to chase mass market appeal.  My plea to Obsidian is: I can live with an un-split pool, but please at least give us an option to disable auto-regen, akin to how POE1 has a permadeath checkbox?  There are many of us for who "action RPG" style regeneration ruins RPGs.  I love Obsidian and POE1 to death - it's seriously about the best imagined CRPG world there's been - but insta-regen drives a nail in the series coffin for some of us.

​

Please allow us a checkbox in the new-game screen?  If we grovel, would it help?  Or get Josh Pan-Galactic-Gargle-Blaster level drunk, and then grovel?

​

Edited November 16, 2017 by demeisen

[eisenschwein]

Greetings,

 

so I briefly dipped into the Beta yesterday to see if the concerns regarding the "streamlined" iteration of the health system were justified and...

 

Yes, I don't like it at all, for mainly 2 (for now) reasons:

 

- It simply doesn't feel like PoE. With the injury/wound limit artificially set to some arbitrary number (4, is it?) it resembles Tyranny way too much, and obviously not in a good way.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in PoE you could accumulate a whole bunch of negative effects, afflictions, injuries, etc in much more subtle (and natural) increments before either or both endurance and health were decreased to such a degree that you had to take a rest. Or take the chance and continue on for a little longer, risking to be murdered during the next encounter.

 

- The tactical part is gone for the most part. Managing both endurance and health and pondering whether to heal up completely or take the gamble hoping that endurance will hold was both a thrill and a satisfactory experience, especially when pulling off the gamble and saving a restoration spell or a precious use of wound binding or field triage in the process.

 

Haven't played the Beta yet myself but I can already tell that this is something I won't like about the revised system too.

 

How about tying the amount of wounds or injuries a character can sustain before collapsing to his or her constitution instead? Limiting it to 4 for all character builds, completely disregarding different physiques and levels of hardiness/toughness is simplifying things a bit too much for my taste.

 

If the classic endurance/health system won't be given another chance I could at least live with that compromise.

[dam]

Excuse me ?

A single health resource which does not regenerate ?

 

I certainly hope you mean "which does not regenerate back to full out of combat, it can still be rejuvenated during a fight".

 

Otherwise what use is that Chanter's Ancient Memory ?

That Figther's Recovery ?

That priest's whole healing branch ?

[dam]

 

Greetings,

 

so I briefly dipped into the Beta yesterday to see if the concerns regarding the "streamlined" iteration of the health system were justified and...

 

Yes, I don't like it at all, for mainly 2 (for now) reasons:

 

- It simply doesn't feel like PoE. With the injury/wound limit artificially set to some arbitrary number (4, is it?) it resembles Tyranny way too much, and obviously not in a good way.

Correct me if I'm wrong but in PoE you could accumulate a whole bunch of negative effects, afflictions, injuries, etc in much more subtle (and natural) increments before either or both endurance and health were decreased to such a degree that you had to take a rest. Or take the chance and continue on for a little longer, risking to be murdered during the next encounter.

 

- The tactical part is gone for the most part. Managing both endurance and health and pondering whether to heal up completely or take the gamble hoping that endurance will hold was both a thrill and a satisfactory experience, especially when pulling off the gamble and saving a restoration spell or a precious use of wound binding or field triage in the process.

 

Haven't played the Beta yet myself but I can already tell that this is something I won't like about the revised system too.

 

How about tying the amount of wounds or injuries a character can sustain before collapsing to his or her constitution instead? Limiting it to 4 for all character builds, completely disregarding different physiques and levels of hardiness/toughness is simplifying things a bit too much for my taste.

 

If the classic endurance/health system won't be given another chance I could at least live with that compromise.

 

 

It is already tied to a character's constitution.

 

Your 22 CON fighter isn't as likely to drop as your 8 CON rogue (although one might argue the fighter's goal in life IS to get beat on so, their chance of going down increases).

 

You only get an injury if you actually fall during the fight.

[demeisen]

Excuse me ?

A single health resource which does not regenerate ?

 

I certainly hope you mean "which does not regenerate back to full out of combat, it can still be rejuvenated during a fight".

 

That's what I mean, yes - sorry for the ambiguity.  I meant no out-of-fight Diablo-style instant regen after fights.  Explicit in-fight healing such as via cleric spells, paladin lay-on-hands, chanters, etc, are fine.

​

​Editing to add: the checkbox should also make wiz/cleric/etc spells per rest, rather than per-encounter.  The point is to bring back long term resource considerations.

Edited November 16, 2017 by demeisen