Josh Sawyer's tweets and teasers

[Nail]

I'll put 100$ on Edér being interested in an homosexual relationship. Who's in?

I thought Edér is fond of animals...

[Juodas Varnas]

 

I'll put 100$ on Edér being interested in an homosexual relationship. Who's in?

I thought Edér is fond of animals...

Well, if he ended up one, it'd be sort of a retcon wouldn't it?

 

I mean, i remember him mentioning some milkmaid who 'knew what she was doing' back in Gilded Vale, when you enter the Salty Mast.

[Beyond The Sea]

 

 

I'll put 100$ on Edér being interested in an homosexual relationship. Who's in?

I thought Edér is fond of animals...

 

Well, if he ended up one, it'd be sort of a retcon wouldn't it?

 

I mean, i remember him mentioning some milkmaid who 'knew what she was doing' back in Gilded Vale, when you enter the Salty Mast.

 

 

Hiravias also asks Edér if he ever smoked something (was it Dyrcap?) with a girl and Edér says "is there any other point?"

Edited January 3, 2018 by Beyond The Sea

[Beyond The Sea]

It's easy to say oh well, this developer includes bisexual, lesbian or gay characters therefore they are advocates for diversity. But most these developers accommodate players who don't want to deal with diversity. For example in Skyrim you can marry someone of the same sex but unless you wander about with the marriage seeker amulet you would never know any male character would marry a man. Skyrim itself has no gay characters. All couples are heterosexual. The same is true for Stardew Valley. Unless you enter a romantic relationship with a bachelor or bachelorette of the same sex there is nothing gay or lesbian in that game.

In New Vegas some gay and bisexual character will only reveal their sexuality if you have the Confirmed Bachelor perk. It's hidden from those players without it. In Divinity: Original Sin 2 you can have sex with every single companion but Fane will talk about his wife and daughter and the Red Prince will talk about having sex with a Sucubus and he's in love with the Red Princess. None of the male companions mention a former male lover. The same is true for virtually all bisexual male characters including Fallout 4 and Dragon Age.

 

The people who don't want to deal with sexual minorities don't have to. They are very much considered and taken into account. Only the radical extremists who hate the very presence of sexual minorities are ignored because there are not many of them and exactly because their opinions are so irrationally hateful.

[JerekKruger]

I mean, i remember him mentioning some milkmaid who 'knew what she was doing' back in Gilded Vale, when you enter the Salty Mast.

 

Doesn't necessarily preclude other interests.

[Sedrefilos]

Funny how many people curse Bioware about their characters and romances while on the other hand they claim they don't like romance in games. Guess what: you're not forced in a romance in any of Bioware's games and no character is going to talk about their sexual preferences if not asked after being in a good relation with the PC. That mens they feel comfortable enough to open themselves to you.

 

What happens is this imo: people are intrigued by romance, they want to fakk as many npcs they want, they stumble upon a character that was not what they expected to be and then they rage about it. That's writers doing great job in my book

Edited January 4, 2018 by Sedrefilos

[Nail]

Funny how many people curse Bioware about their characters and romances while on the other hand they claim they don't like romance in games. Guess what: you're not forced in a romance in any of Bioware's games and no character is going to talk about their sexual preferences if not asked after being in a good relation with the PC. That mens they feel comfortable enough to open themselves to you.

 

What happens is this imo: people are intrigued with romance, they want to fakk as many npcs they want, they stumble upon a character that was not what they expected to be and then they rage about it. That's writers doing great job in my book

Achievements, that's what to blame! Just because they exist there I had to turn into flaming bisexual jumping from one npc to other...

[Lord_Mord]

 

I'll put 100$ on Edér being interested in an homosexual relationship. Who's in?

 

Forget it. They are not going to disappoint all the Eder fangirls. If they did, they would have to deal with death threats, suicides and that kind of stuff.

[Wormerine]

Funny how many people curse Bioware about their characters and romances while on the other hand they claim they don't like romance in games. Guess what: you're not forced in a romance in any of Bioware's games and no character is going to talk about their sexual preferences if not asked after being in a good relation with the PC. That mens they feel comfortable enough to open themselves to you.

 

What happens is this imo: people are intrigued with romance, they want to fakk as many npcs they want, they stumble upon a character that was not what they expected to be and then they rage about it. That's writers doing great job in my book

The problem is that often the choice is “romance” or “be a ****”. And no, romance itself isn’t game breaker. The only game which really bothered me were Dragon Ages (1+2) and Mass Effect 3. That said those games bothered me beyond romances. However, especially in ME3 I felt as if “space boat of love” overtook character interaction, including characters gotting plastic surgery and all becoming supermodels between sequels. That said moments I remember to be super uncomfortable weren’t even intended. Like making “don’t die” speech in hospital over half naked, super ripped Kaiden body. Edited January 3, 2018 by Wormerine

[Enoch]

 

 

 

I'll put 100$ on Edér being interested in an homosexual relationship. Who's in?

I thought Edér is fond of animals...

 

Well, if he ended up one, it'd be sort of a retcon wouldn't it?

 

I mean, i remember him mentioning some milkmaid who 'knew what she was doing' back in Gilded Vale, when you enter the Salty Mast.

 

Hiravias also asks Edér if he ever smoked something (was it Dyrcap?) with a girl and Edér says "is there any other point?"

 

Still, wouldn't be a difficult retcon at all.  Ed's just a deeply closeted country boy, who knows how to go along with the "locker room talk." 

 

In a rural community like Gilded Vale, it probably is a little unusual for such a funny, buff, and strikingly handsome dude to be a bachelor well into his 30s.  Religious isolation, fear of the Legacy, and his whole emotional situation re: the war and his brother might explain that, but maybe there's another factor, too...

 

 

Anyhow, Josh had a pair of Deadfire-related Tumblr posts yesterday.  Nothing too earthshaking to report.  On multiclass ability progression, and On MIG/STR/RES and a common martial ability pool. 

[smjjames]

@those complaining about the romance stuff: You could just, not do the romance stuff if you don't want to. I seriously doubt it'll be forced on us or anything.

[Gfted1]

@those complaining about the romance stuff: You could just, not do the romance stuff if you don't want to. I seriously doubt it'll be forced on us or anything.

 

But then how would people complain about things other people like?

[smjjames]

Also, @rosbjerg: You change SJW to 'perpetually offended' (if that's what it was) and yet leave it on the politics thread? I'm just pointing out inconsistency here.

Edited January 3, 2018 by smjjames

[Beyond The Sea]

 

 

Well, if he ended up one, it'd be sort of a retcon wouldn't it?

 

I mean, i remember him mentioning some milkmaid who 'knew what she was doing' back in Gilded Vale, when you enter the Salty Mast.

Hiravias also asks Edér if he ever smoked something (was it Dyrcap?) with a girl and Edér says "is there any other point?"

 

Still, wouldn't be a difficult retcon at all.  Ed's just a deeply closeted country boy, who knows how to go along with the "locker room talk." 

 

In a rural community like Gilded Vale, it probably is a little unusual for such a funny, buff, and strikingly handsome dude to be a bachelor well into his 30s.  Religious isolation, fear of the Legacy, and his whole emotional situation re: the war and his brother might explain that, but maybe there's another factor, too...

 

The narrative isn't as challenging as the reaction of players. They may claim they were misled, lied to. Some more homophobic players may feel betrayed for being tricked into liking someone who turned out to be homosexual. Both in and out of game, blaming either Edér himself for lying or more likely Obsidian for making him gay. Why risk any of this if you have new characters without such baggage who could be gay? I cannot think of a logical reason at the moment.

[Lephys]

@those complaining about the romance stuff: You could just, not do the romance stuff if you don't want to. I seriously doubt it'll be forced on us or anything.

 

Probably the largest singular problem with the handling of romance in RPGs is that it's a thing that you can optionally do. Conflict between characters isn't a thing you can optionally do. Neither is pretty much any other emotional development. I mean, sure, outcome A or outcome B might occur between your party and some NPC depending on your choices, but you don't just get to choose "Nah, I'm not gonna have anyone be mad at me."

 

Romance is just a part of the people-simulation of the world and characters. Generally, it gets crafted into the game as this weird, super-separate add-on (which is bad), AND it gets wayyyyy too in-depth. Like "This character whispers sweet nothings into your ear... what do you do? (list options of things to whisper back)." It's just weird. The rest of the game doesn't go into that level of detail with interactions, but then, now that it's "a romance" (again, the weird separate thing), it gets all of its own super-zoomed-in interaction details. Or, worse, you get basically the option to either woo NPC, or opposite-of-woo NPC.

 

I wish people would just accept that if you're going to write a world full of characters, many of them are going to seek romantic involvements/emotional bonds. Doesn't mean we need to code in a "doin' it" minigame. It just means that it's a thing that's in the game world, just like basically any other motivations or character personality factor ever.

 

Romance is a classic case of a "it's for some reason been accepted to just approach it incorrectly from the get-go, so most games do it wrong, so let's just shun the very idea of it because no one wants to bother actually taking the time to consider how it would be better handled in general" feature. It's not unlike the dreaded "DLC." Lots of it has been dumbly designed money grabs, so now "DLC" in general is just this evil entity. As if anything you could digitally download to expand a game is now bad. Obviously it isn't, but it's commonly shunned as some kind of overly specific thing.

[algroth]

Also, @rosbjerg: You change SJW to 'perpetually offended' (if that's what it was) and yet leave it on the politics thread? I'm just pointing out inconsistency here.

 

He changed the term "tranny", which is a pejorative term for the trans community.

[Wormerine]

 

@those complaining about the romance stuff: You could just, not do the romance stuff if you don't want to. I seriously doubt it'll be forced on us or anything.

 

Probably the largest singular problem with the handling of romance in RPGs is that it's a thing that you can optionally do. Conflict between characters isn't a thing you can optionally do. Neither is pretty much any other emotional development. I mean, sure, outcome A or outcome B might occur between your party and some NPC depending on your choices, but you don't just get to choose "Nah, I'm not gonna have anyone be mad at me."

 

Romance is just a part of the people-simulation of the world and characters. Generally, it gets crafted into the game as this weird, super-separate add-on (which is bad), AND it gets wayyyyy too in-depth. Like "This character whispers sweet nothings into your ear... what do you do? (list options of things to whisper back)." It's just weird. The rest of the game doesn't go into that level of detail with interactions, but then, now that it's "a romance" (again, the weird separate thing), it gets all of its own super-zoomed-in interaction details. Or, worse, you get basically the option to either woo NPC, or opposite-of-woo NPC.

 

I wish people would just accept that if you're going to write a world full of characters, many of them are going to seek romantic involvements/emotional bonds. Doesn't mean we need to code in a "doin' it" minigame. It just means that it's a thing that's in the game world, just like basically any other motivations or character personality factor ever.

 

Romance is a classic case of a "it's for some reason been accepted to just approach it incorrectly from the get-go, so most games do it wrong, so let's just shun the very idea of it because no one wants to bother actually taking the time to consider how it would be better handled in general" feature. It's not unlike the dreaded "DLC." Lots of it has been dumbly designed money grabs, so now "DLC" in general is just this evil entity. As if anything you could digitally download to expand a game is now bad. Obviously it isn't, but it's commonly shunned as some kind of overly specific thing.

That's what I hope "relationship" of Deadfire system will do - create believable and natural interactions and bonds/conflicts between&with NPCs. I think you really nail the issue with "romances" in RPGs. They more often than not feel like "erotica" DLC rather than integral part of interactions. And so often it purely depends on player choosing the branch of dialogue with heart icon, making it feel like "choose your sex toy" rather than genuine interaction with the character. Probably the reason I still like romance in BG2 the most is because it was initiated by companions, not the player. 

[Guest 4ward]

part of the main theme of BG2 is a romance gone wrong (irenicus/ellesime). Then, think of Tristan and Isolde, goethe‘s sorrows of young werther or schiller‘s intrigue and love. Without it, there‘s no drama, tragedy, agony. I'll admit that it's difficult to realize on that level with the main char but as a plot theme between other game's chars perhaps..

 

edit:

i think that the Jaheira romance is the best of all romances in BG2 because it‘s not just dialogue but also quests tied to it. The main char has to invest effort by e.g. saving her from bandits or investigating the curse brought upon her and there‘s all possible quests tied to the harpers.

Edited January 3, 2018 by 4ward

[Tigranes]

Funny how many people curse Bioware about their characters and romances while on the other hand they claim they don't like romance in games. Guess what: you're not forced in a romance in any of Bioware's games and no character is going to talk about their sexual preferences if not asked after being in a good relation with the PC. That mens they feel comfortable enough to open themselves to you.

 

What happens is this imo: people are intrigued with romance, they want to fakk as many npcs they want, they stumble upon a character that was not what they expected to be and then they rage about it. That's writers doing great job in my book

 

In Divinity: OS 2 and Elex, I had to read some disgusting lines of NPCs throwing their panties at my feet and begging for sex despite my refusing to ever pick a dialogue choice that pandered to their emotions in the slightest - because, I guess, I completed their quests and a couple of other things somehow built up the global variable. I had to read very carefully and select the most mean rejection line possible, and one of them called me a wanker and we moved on, thank God.

 

Not that I think that's an argument against having romances, mind you. That's a problem with crap scripting and crap writing, not the existence of romances. 

 

At the same time, I don't really think "if you won't play with that specific option, you should have no voice in this & having opinions makes you a party pooper" is a reasonable argument. I could fast-forward the movie or TV show or flip the pages in the book whenever there's a cringy sex scene (and I often do), but that doesn't mean that I am forbidden from criticising it. Media texts are not supposed to be a gigantic Library of Babel that contains every possible kind of content, where if you don't like something you aren't allowed to complain about it, only skip it.

 

Games are made and produced as a holistic experience driven by a creative vision and offering an immersive world, and that means offering my opinions about crappy romances is a legitimate activity. "If you don't like it skip it" is a legitimate piece of advice for my personal enjoyment, but it's not a valid tool to shut down criticism.

[smjjames]

 

Also, @rosbjerg: You change SJW to 'perpetually offended' (if that's what it was) and yet leave it on the politics thread? I'm just pointing out inconsistency here.

 

He changed the term "tranny", which is a pejorative term for the trans community.

 

 

'perpetually offended' sounds more like an euphenism for SJW, but okay then.

[smjjames]

 

Funny how many people curse Bioware about their characters and romances while on the other hand they claim they don't like romance in games. Guess what: you're not forced in a romance in any of Bioware's games and no character is going to talk about their sexual preferences if not asked after being in a good relation with the PC. That mens they feel comfortable enough to open themselves to you.

 

What happens is this imo: people are intrigued with romance, they want to fakk as many npcs they want, they stumble upon a character that was not what they expected to be and then they rage about it. That's writers doing great job in my book

 

In Divinity: OS 2 and Elex, I had to read some disgusting lines of NPCs throwing their panties at my feet and begging for sex despite my refusing to ever pick a dialogue choice that pandered to their emotions in the slightest - because, I guess, I completed their quests and a couple of other things somehow built up the global variable. I had to read very carefully and select the most mean rejection line possible, and one of them called me a wanker and we moved on, thank God.

 

You mean the death rose witch?

 

Though other than that one, I didn't run into that stuff in Divinity: OS2. That elven PC is knd of a b**** though. Then again, I didn't play all of the characters.

Edited January 3, 2018 by smjjames

[the_dog_days]

Sigh. I don't know which I'd rather have happen, necroing the Romance thread or hijacking this one to have this conversation.  

[injurai]

 

 

I wonder who's gonna be gay this time. Not gonna be surprised if it's the most popular and funny characters as always, just to screw straight players.

This should be Aloth. He is ALREADY half-woman 

 

 

Which is exactly why he shouldn't. Basically all of the male companions from PoE except Aloth are masculine. Edér boast about his sexual experiences with women. Hiravias flirts aggressively with women. Durance likes to call women whores. Kana tries to flirt with Maneha as well. Their personalities suffice to avoid any questions about their masculinity or sexuality. They are unquestionably men. Aloth is the only male companion who is shown to be weak, a coward even. As can be seen right here this creates questions about his sexuality. Aloth being bisexual or gay really would confirm some problematic stereotypes. Nevermind the whole issue of Iselmyr. Being sometimes female has a whole other set of complications. Isemyr would contribute to an association of homosexuality or bisexuality with being transgender. Presumably Deadfire will mostly played by people who identify as straight who tend not to differentiate between sexual identity, behavior and attraction. Nontheless Carrie Patel wrote Aloth and Maneha. Of all writers she appears most eager to write characters who don't confirm to gender roles. Therefore I'd say the likelihood of Aloth being interested in men is unfortunately still quite high if Patel wrote him in Deadfire.

 

 

I fully support this. Plus there is Aloth and Iselmyr, no need to blur the lines between them. If Aloth grants Iselmyr use of his body at times, (which would be a neat player choice, particular if it wasn't setup merely to unlock additional romantic options) then maybe we can have Iselmyr pursue relations in addition. But I think it would be far more compelling to have Aloth grow into strength as a character, to become self asserting.

 

There is so much great material in there that ties him to the Aedyr empire. He is our lens into it.

[injurai]

Sigh. I don't know which I'd rather have happen, necroing the Romance thread or hijacking this one to have this conversation.  

 

This thread is at least self correcting.

[MortyTheGobbo]

Sigh. I don't know which I'd rather have happen, necroing the Romance thread or hijacking this one to have this conversation.  

 

I really don't see it as any different than the Might attribute, the reduced party size or any other thing people feel strongly about and discuss frequently. Isn't that what this place is for?