List of PoE1 Inconsistent Stuff

[Ninjamestari]

So int doesn't increase the overall damage of a dot? seriously?

 

They should get rid of the "x damage over y sec" formula and instead use "x damage per second for y seconds" to keep things easy to read.

[Madscientist]

According to the link from MaxQuest, int does increase the overall damage for some dots but not for all.

This is mostly a problem for "dot lashes", that means things that cause x% damage over y seconds from the initial hit, such as wounding.

In their case higher int reduces the damage per tick.

 

"normal" dots are supposed to have about the same DPS with different int, but I have not tested it.

MaxQuest, please help.

[Ninjamestari]

All the more reason to adopt the 'x damage per second for y seconds' design standard.

[MountainTiger]

For tooltips, "X damage over Y seconds" seems fine. What would be nice would be to also have a more detailed in-game description of the details of DoTs (tick rates, the impact of INT, etc) available for people who want fuller information without either manually testing the mechanics themselves or rooting around online for someone else's test results. Presumably Obsidian has design notes somewhere about how the different types of DoTs are supposed to work for their own reference; writing those up as in-game documentation would be a bit of work but should not be an overwhelming task.

[JerekKruger]

Thinking about it some more I really think Intellect should increase the duration of DOTs by adding more ticks, not by increasing the delay between ticks. Yes, this would mean Intellect would increase the total amount of damage, straying somewhat into Might's domain, but realistically what matters most the time is DPS, not total damage, and that would remain the same.

 

In shorter fights the affect of Intellect might not even be noticeable with this change, and in longer ones the main affect would be to save you a recast/reapplication of the spell/ability. Seems perfectly reasonable.

[Madscientist]

Thinking about it some more I really think Intellect should increase the duration of DOTs by adding more ticks, not by increasing the delay between ticks. Yes, this would mean Intellect would increase the total amount of damage, straying somewhat into Might's domain, but realistically what matters most the time is DPS, not total damage, and that would remain the same.

 

In shorter fights the affect of Intellect might not even be noticeable with this change, and in longer ones the main affect would be to save you a recast/reapplication of the spell/ability. Seems perfectly reasonable.

 

Int does increase the number of ticks. There is one tick every 3 seconds plus a smaller tick at the end if the total duration cannot be divided by 3. If int increases the duration to a value above another multiple of 3 seconds, another tick will be added.

The main problem is that we need to know the value of each tick, because DR is substracted from this value without a minimum damage.

[JerekKruger]

Int does increase the number of ticks. There is one tick every 3 seconds plus a smaller tick at the end if the total duration cannot be divided by 3. If int increases the duration to a value above another multiple of 3 seconds, another tick will be added.

The main problem is that we need to know the value of each tick, because DR is substracted from this value without a minimum damage.

 

My bad, what I should have said is it should increase the number of ticks, but the damage of each tick should remain the same. Essentially DPS shouldn't be reduced by raising Intellect.

[MaxQuest]

There's also the issue of DoT stacking which I've never been clear on. It seems like weapon based DoTs (wounding, etc.) should stack with themselves, while spell based ones shouldn't, but I've never been clear on exactly how that works.

There seem to be no clear rules.

But as a partially working rule of thumb you can use:

- DoTs that come from AoEs, or weapon damage based wounding, do stack

- The rest do not stack

 

Divide into weapon-based and non-weapon-based DoTs

ALL dots get extra "ticks" from high int (explain in tooltips as "will hit more times")

Non-weapon DoTs get increased damage per tick from Might

Weapon-based DoTs don't get additional increased damage from Might (but still are boosted indirectly as Might boosts the weapon base damage).

This would make it more consistent, yes.

Part of me liked that wounding was getting higher damage; but yeah, it would definitely be more consistent.

 

I have 300+ hours in this game and I never knew ironskin potions worked like that... I never used them because the tooltip made them sound worthless

First time I've casted it was on 3rd play-through. And only because I explicitly wanted to check if it is indeed that bad)

 

So int doesn't increase the overall damage of a dot? seriously?

- Int does not increase total damage of DoTs with "fixed" damage, e.g: wounding (enchant from Tidefall, DiS, Persistence), Wounding Shot, Runner's Wounding Shot. (increasing int actually decreases their dps - and this is what I was marking as an inconsistency)

- Int does increase total damage of all other DoTs.

 

All the more reason to adopt the 'x damage per second for y seconds' design standard.

This would be a bit unfitting PoE1, because:

- tick rate would have to be 1s; each tick going vs 0,08(3) of DR, which is not as clean/elegant/calculable-in-mind as 0.25

- this could result in lots of floating combat text, especially in case of stacking AoE DoTs

But yeah, this probably could be done in PoE2, since there will be no flat DR, and maybe there would be some spam prevention that would aggregate displaying of multiple ticks.

 

Thinking about it some more I really think Intellect should increase the duration of DOTs by adding more ticks, not by increasing the delay between ticks.

What kind of delay do you mean?

As for Int, it already increases duration by adding more ticks, for all of DoTs.

 

P.S. @Madscientist, you shouldn't post that link to nwn2db! That's such a time killer ))

Edited March 8, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Madscientist]

Maybe we need an option if we use a complex or simplified combat log.

 

simple:

char A hits enemy X for 30 damage

char B crits enemy Y with spell Q for 40 damage over 20 seconds

 

complex:

char A hits enemy X for 20 pierce damage ( 30 - 10 DR) and 10 fire damage ( 15 - 5 DR ), acc80 - will 70 + roll 60 = 70 (hit)

char B crits enemy Y with spell Q for 10 damage every 3 seconds for 8 seconds, acc 90 - ref 20 + roll 80 = 150 (crit ) and then is an entry that shows damage vs DR for each tick

[JerekKruger]

What kind of delay do you mean?

As for Int, it already increases duration by adding more ticks, for all of DoTs.

 

Yeah it was a mistake on my part. I knew that (some) DOTs lose DPS from higher Intellect and assumed this was by increasing the time between each tick. Turns out if I had read the mechanics post more carefully I would have realised that it's not that the ticks are more spread out, it's that each tick does less damage.

[Madscientist]

Maybe we need an option if we use a complex or simplified combat log.

 

simple:

char A hits enemy X for 30 damage

char B crits enemy Y with spell Q for 40 damage over 20 seconds

 

complex:

char A hits enemy X for 20 pierce damage ( 30 - 10 DR) and 10 fire damage ( 15 - 5 DR ), acc80 - will 70 + roll 60 = 70 (hit)

char B crits enemy Y with spell Q for 10 damage every 3 seconds for 8 seconds, acc 90 - ref 20 + roll 80 = 150 (crit ) and then is an entry that shows damage vs DR for each tick

 

I knew I saw this somewhere before.

 

PS: how can you post an image here?

 

 

Edit:

Thanks silent winter.

Somehow I managed to post a large image here in the past. I did it often for bug reports in PoE1. I am getting old.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Madscientist

[injurai]

Fantastic thread, I think their rework of the UI would be the endeavor(Jiras!) that they could wrap a lot of these changes into. Basically there is a lot of underlying behavior that should either be conveyed in a more direct and understandable way. Or for things that remain naturally complex, should have concise way to dig down into the implementation details if need be. For that later, at least something that is programmatic and numerical so they don't have to keep rewriting their prose when they inevitably make balance changes.

[Silent Winter]

PS: how can you post an image here?

click on 'more reply options' next to 'post' in the bottom right - then you can attach files.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Silent Winter

[Madscientist]

MaxQuest, I looked again through your lists.

Until then I did not know that different animal companions and druid shapeshifts have different attack speed.

Your list shows everything except the damage.

 

Where can I see the (base)damage and its developement as you level up for:

- different animal companions of rangers

- different shapeshifted forms of druids

- fists (normal, monk fists (transcendent suffering) and with novice suffering. I have read that fists have the problem that they have low base damage and the talents give a flat bonus on top.

For all normal weapons (the ones you equip) you can see their damage in their description.

 

Regarding inconsistencies, my main question is if druids/pets with lower attack speed have higher damage? If not they would have a disadvantage.

[MaxQuest]

MaxQuest, I looked again through your lists.

Until then I did not know that different animal companions and druid shapeshifts have different attack speed.

Yeah, bear and lion being so slow was quite a surprise.

 

Regarding inconsistencies, my main question is if druids/pets with lower attack speed have higher damage? If not they would have a disadvantage.

All animal companions have the same base damage: 11-17. Wolves get a bonus +2 to that. You can check this thread for more info.

 

As for druids... Tbh I have never checked their base damage.

Although according to wiki, they all have 11-22.

Exception being Stelgaer: 21-33

And it also looks like Boar deals pierce damage. But again, I haven't test it.

 

Similar story with fists damage. I have read, many times, that Novice/Transcendent Suffering is added as a flat bonus (which renders talents like Savage Attack a bit useless). While playing, my personal experience matched expectations. But I haven't tested it to be able to assert it and being 100% sure. More like 90% sure

You might find this thread of use.

Edited March 15, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Madscientist]

I read the wiki about druid damage, thats why I was confused that different shapeshifts have different attack speed.

 

For those who played a lot with druids or rangers: Do you think their damage increases when they level up?

I never used shapeshift lately, but I think Itumaak did more damage as I progressed in the game ( This is just what I remember, I did not test it and I can be wrong.)

 

What is the base damage of fists ( without transcendent/novice suffering)?

I assume those talents do not affect attack speed with fists.

[JerekKruger]

As for druids... Tbh I have never checked their base damage.

Although according to wiki, they all have 11-22.

Exception being Stelgaer: 21-33

 

I wouldn't trust the wiki on this. For a start, on this page it states that Druid spiritshift weapons do 16-25 damage. My guess would be 11-22 is the base damage at level 1, and 21-33 is the damage at some higher level and possibly including Hiravias's might bonus. 

 

Similar story with fists damage. I have read, many times, that Novice/Transcendent Suffering is added as a flat bonus (which renders talents like Savage Attack a bit useless). While playing, my personal experience matched expectations. But I haven't tested it to be able to assert it and being 100% sure. More like 90% sure 

You might find this thread of use.

 

 

Savage Attack isn't actually that bad for Monks. Its 20% bonus only applies to the fist's base damage of 10-15, so it adds 2-3 damage, but then the same is true for a sabre say, where the bonus only applies to the base damage of 11-16 damage hence adding 2.2-3.2 damage. Given that fists are fast weapons, I think they probably gain a little more from Savage Attack than other one handed weapons.

 

Now Novice's Suffering is a different story, since here the base damage is whatever a standard non-Monk unarmed attack is and so the bonus from Savage Attack is pretty small.

[Madscientist]

 

 

Savage Attack isn't actually that bad for Monks. Its 20% bonus only applies to the fist's base damage of 10-15, so it adds 2-3 damage, but then the same is true for a sabre say, where the bonus only applies to the base damage of 11-16 damage hence adding 2.2-3.2 damage. Given that fists are fast weapons, I think they probably gain a little more from Savage Attack than other one handed weapons.

 

Now Novice's Suffering is a different story, since here the base damage is whatever a standard non-Monk unarmed attack is and so the bonus from Savage Attack is pretty small.

 

 

Does this mean monks and other classes have a different "base fist"?

I thought monks are only better in unarmed combat, because they have transcendent suffering.

 

I just tested it, you can see the description of a weapon by right clicking, but you cannot get a description of an unarmed attack.

[Boeroer]

That is right. Monk's fists do more base damage than other classes' fists. Transcendent's Suffering then adds less damage than Novice's Suffering does.

 

This leads to a situation where things like crits and Savage Attack and so on work OK for monks but not good with other classes who use Nov. Suffering.

 

On the other hand a character using Novice's Suffering doesn't need to care about grazes - they nearly do the same damage as crits. This allows for quirky low ACC builds which can get high MIG which still deal OK melee damage (like unarmed wizard for example).

It's also cool for carnage because the -33% damage malus only affects the whimpy base damage, not the bonus of Nov. Suff.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Boeroer

[amazeing4art]

I agree the in-game descriptions of many spells and talents in POE1 left a lot to be desired. When the description for something like Ironskin is so vague and misleading, it leads to players making bad decisions about whether or when to cast it. Because the description made it sound so weak... "+8 DR until hit..." which basically would mean... since you are incredibly unlikely to get any benefit from the extra +8 DR for grazes at all to begin with... that it gets applied only once when you actually need it, and then disappears. So for the longest time I totally avoided that spell, assuming the description was accurate.

 

Most spell and talent mechanics won't be too complicated and can be fully explained in a tooltip. But if the description of mechanics is too complicated for the casual gamer, it should still be available ... the hardcore min-max players interested in mechanics can click a "more details" link or something. This would be infinitely preferable to dumbing down the actual mechanics of all these interesting spells and talents, I think that would be a huge loss and mistake. Don't oversimplify spells and talents just so they can be explained in a single brief sentence... keep the mechanics deep, interesting and well-thought out... like Ironskin probably is, in reality.

 

So many other things needed better explanation too... weapon lashes and whether they benefit from abilities like Secrets of Rime, and especially how the effect is reduced by enemy elemental DR... I still have no idea and I've been playing this game for a year, off and on. On the face of it since most enemies have enough elemental DR to absorb 25% of almost any total weapon hit (that's the strength of the elemental lash) it would seem than the lash damage would always be less than the enemy elemental DR and thus, the lash is generally kind of useless. But this is not how it works I think. But where do you learn how it works in game? I don't think you can.

Edited March 17, 2017 by amazeing4art

[Boeroer]

The lash only has to overcome 1/4 of the DR. And the game won't ever tell you.

[MaxQuest]

The lash only has to overcome 1/4 of the DR. And the game won't ever tell you.

Not only that) but also how does lash benefit from elemental talents.

 

E.g. does Secret of Rime simply increase the final value of freezing lash by x1.2, or does it increase the pre DR elemental damage. Also how does it stack with such damage coefficients like might for lash calculation.

 

Answer:

 

lashDamage = [((1 + elementalBonus) * dmgRolled) - DR] * 0.25

where dmgRolled = random(weaponDmgMin, weaponDmgMax) * (1 + mightCoef + weaponQualityCoef + hitQualityCoef + etc)

- vs 0 DR, lash (with Elemental talent) will deal 0.30 of damage (as expected)

- while vs higher DR it will get better:

Without Secrets of Rime:
46.2 - 20 (slash/freeze) DR | 26.2 Slash + 6.5 Freeze (~25%)
43.0 - 20 (slash/freeze) DR | 23.0 Slash + 5.7 Freeze (~25%)


With Secrets of Rime:
41.0 - 20 (slash/freeze) DR | 21.0 Slash + 7.3 Freeze (~34%)
50.8 - 20 (slash/freeze) DR | 30.8 Slash + 10.2 Freeze (~33%)

 

[Messier-31]

List of PoE1 Inconsistent Stuff

 

My list is as follows:

1. "Boreal" means northern, so boreal dwarves should be called australis dwarves, due to their southern origin;
2. The water-wheel in Dyrford's mill turns the proper way thx to our righteous ire, but inside the building the rotation is still in the wrong way;
3. Azurro's watch has 12 marks on it, so it means a 24 hour day, while in Eora a day has 27 hours (according to Iroccio).
4. On the map of the Eastern Reach there is one river going thru Dyrford and Twin Elms, but there are two different rivers in the game world map

[JerekKruger]

"Boreal" means northern, so boreal dwarves should be called australis dwarves, due to their southern origin;

 

Australian dwarfs, australis is equivalent to borealis. Also australian dwarfs makes me chuckle

 

Azurro's watch has 12 marks on it, so it means a 24 hour day, while in Eora a day has 27 hours (according to Iroccio).

 

This one should be fixed by making the day 24 hours long!

Edited March 23, 2017 by JerekKruger

[MaxQuest]

So... austral, meridional, southern, or simply polar dwarves