Torment: Tides of Numenera Released

[Harry Easter]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/torment-tides-of-numenera/posts/1823045?ref=backer_project_update

 

Looks like I'll wait a few months to start my real play through.

 

Do you think it could be possible, that they also fix the narrative a bit? It wouldn't need much fixing, just a few more quests in the middle and the end.

[Rorschach]

I haven't finished the game, I'm just a bit stuck due to lack of motivation. The game is not bad, as noted by some it has good writing (even very good at times), Rhin and Erritis (specially with Scan thoughts) are good companions, but I feel that there is little interaction with the companions overall. They have only a few dialogues when you meet them/talk to them and then they go silent unless you do some specific missions with them in the party. Also, I'm surprised that there is so little VO for them. Not that I care that much, but so far they only have a handful of lines each. The main story is trying to repair a mcguffin so far, and it  hasn't advanced **** since the beginning of the game. I've cleared the first major area, and still it's the same objective. Yeah, I get it, the setting and all that, but you have to keep the player hooked, not expect that he'll keep playing just to know how the levies are raised.

 

But there is obvious signs of project mismanagement, feature creep, lack of funding or all of the above. Many mechanics, particularly combat and the XP tables are poorly implemented, the game degenerates into a story experience and the gameplay component is reduced to simply walking around and clicking on characters because there is no challenge or difficulty curve whatsoever. Every task can be succeeded at with 100% success. I had over 24 intellect by the end of the game with 3 edge, so I didn't even need to expend intellect to pass any checks.

And this, absolutely. So far I have around 19 int and 2 edge, and it makes every int task trivial or, worst case scenario, spend 1 point to get 90%+ chance of success. Anything else can be managed by a companion. Even if I fail a check, some of them are repeteable at the cost of 1 point, which makes them 100% chance of success if you have 1 edge. What's worse, it makes my already not-so-impressive focus literally useless, since what it does is allowing me to use extra effort. Why the hell would someone who specializes in talking need extra effort for that? Wouldn't they already have a really high chance of success?

 

In PST, talking to people was central to the plot since it was about understanding who you are, and asking people around to advance in the plot made sense. Here, the city felt like a bunch of (interesting) missions glued together. Most of the time I was doing them because... well, it's a videogame, but my character motivation to talk to people was absolutely artificial. The main objective should be more vague so we needed to talk to peple so they point us in the right direction, but since it is absolutely crystal clear how to advance in the main story, doing secondary tasks feels like delaying it for no reason.

[Mamoulian War]

Agree 100% with your points Ganrich.

 

I hope they release a little more content (maybe the droped companions) later. I realize now how much I missed in my playthrough, so with the right excuse (more content), I'd be ready to do it all again.

They confirmed one new companion added to the game at later stages of post development support in newest backer update.

[Orogun01]

 

 

This ****ing game, it's hours of dialog and no combat and then out of the ****ing blue it throws you into a dungeon you can't escape where you have fight waves of cultist and a boss. So now I have to go back to an earlier save and procure healing items just because of poor design choices.

which one? I think I was able to talk out from most crisis I didn't want to fight it (btw I just got into Bloom but I want to return to clear out that bad canibals)

 

Sounds like he's talking the Endless Gate tomb..

Technically you can bypass those combats, but it makes the final "boss" of that section harder if you do end up sliding into the combat again. But you can still deal with him via non-combat routes if you hit the right dialogue.

 

Also, remember to check things and pick up his merecaster before you enter the gate...

 

Seems like good advice, is the merecaster the flower bouquet? Cause I got that already and did the memory bit.

 

I just need stock on potions, my health is being worn down by all the previous encounters so the final fight is harder than it has to be. But now that I finally get to experience more of combat I can say that it just ****ed up that you only have one turn per character and you can only move or attack. There are abilities that let you attack with move but abilities and character building seem to be very lacking in this game. By which I mean pick one class and everything else is decided for you, which would be fine if every class wasn't so barren. I been playing this game for hours with what should be a mage class and I only have 3 to 4 "spells", which is fine since I can only use one of them per turn. 

So I guess what I'm trying to say is Planescape combat was bad, Numenera is a new low.

[Luridis]

Alright... WTF developers? Have they stopped teaching this in CS curriculums?

 

First, there was the HWR effup! Video: 1998 formation behavior (beginning) vs what gearbox "programmers" came up with in 2015. (2nd Half)

 

 

 

Now, this...

 

Between multiple moving parts (characters outside your control, environmental factors, etc.) and some remarkably bad pathfinding on the part of your characters, things quickly fall into disarray. ~ Kotaku

 

 

So, I'm not imagining that its worse than it is. I really is that bad... Well, it all supports my theory that teaching OOP and "Java" as a curriculum result in halfwit devs.

[Fenixp]

First, there was the HWR effup! Video: 1998 formation behavior (beginning) vs what gearbox "programmers" came up with in 2015. (2nd Half)

That's actually what Relic programmers came up with in 2003. Homeworld: Remastered is based on HW2 engine, which is where most of its issues came from. Since the release of the remaster, version 2.0 came out, fixing ballistics (completely) and formations (mostly - large vessels still tend to break out of formations in prolonged fights, favoring getting in range of their weapons to sticking to a formation) - so what Gearbox programmers came up with in 2016 is significantly different. Here are complete patch notes.

 

So, I'm not imagining that its worse than it is. I really is that bad... Well, it all supports my theory that teaching OOP and "Java" as a curriculum result in halfwit devs.

It's more about majority of actually good developers doing jobs with sane hours and good pay. Edited March 11, 2017 by Fenixp

[Luridis]

So, I'm not imagining that its worse than it is. I really is that bad... Well, it all supports my theory that teaching OOP and "Java" as a curriculum result in halfwit devs.

It's more about majority of actually good developers doing jobs with sane hours and good pay.

 

That was actually a joke, the (_|_) hurt isn't necessary.

[Fenixp]

That was actually a joke, the (_|_) hurt isn't necessary.

I just woke up. I have a right - no, an obligation - to be grumpy :-P

[Luridis]

 

That was actually a joke, the (_|_) hurt isn't necessary.

I just woke up. I have a right - no, an obligation - to be grumpy :-P

 

 

Maybe this will cheer you up... FloppyTron to the rescue.

 

[majestic]

I finally finished the game.

 

Technical issues like the path finding and weird reponse times aside I think inXile tried too hard and ended up "Michael Bay'ing" the game. Where Michael Bay movies are essentially a string of scenes happening for the sake of showing off flashy explosions, great special effects and action shots with barely a coherent plot to connect them TTON is a string of dialogues happening for the sake of having lots of - admittedly well written and interesting - text in the game.

 

So, so, so much of it is simply there to be there, not because it furthers the player's uncovering of what is happening. In PS:T, for all its faults and verbosity at times, you're uncovering what is going on, step by step. There is focus and coherence, especially during the first two thirds of the game. Sure there are sidequests that are completely unrelated and far too many of them are fed ex quests, but compare one of the core dialogue mechanic for both games:

 

In PS:T, remembering tells you more of what is happening around you. It furthers your knowledge of past incarnations or helps to understand the connection TNO and his companions share. It is part of uncovering the mystery of what is happening.

 

TTON, with a rather similar premise the same mechanic uncovers bits and pieces of your past, but almost none of that has anything to do with uncovering what is going on. A missable side quest has more connection to the plot than remembering... anything.

 

In PS:T I ended up talking to everything and everyone because I wanted to know more. I did the same in TTON hoping it do the same but for the most part it just didn't. There are 1.2 million words of set up in TTON and preciously little payoff.

 

All things aside, I still enjoyed the game and reading the epilogue text about the companions sometimes put a smile on my face or made me sad, and that speaks to the written word's strength in the game, because the companions are a bit underdeveloped.

[Luridis]

TBH, I wonder too if the obnoxious stuff like the way pathing works might also be the result of maintaining a common codebase with a console-enabled game. And that is not to say that one method is better than the other. We've all seen poor console to PC ports. In past years I can remember poor PC to console ports. So, it's not about one being better than the other. It's about fundamentally different interfaces requiring entirely different approaches to game design in order to fit their target platform well. I can no more conceive of a good port of Neverwinter Nights 1 to PS4 than I could imagine playing the original Tomb Raider with a keyboard and mouse. Finally, on that note, I can't imagine a text-heavy game being well received on a console.

Edited March 11, 2017 by Luridis

[majestic]

It also shows - again, much like Pillars of Eternity did - the problems with stretch goals on crowd funding platforms. I mean those that affect the game and its content directly, like new cities and different gameplay mechanics, not stuff like more localizations. First of all one ends up modularizing the game world and mechanics right from the start and perhaps worse it puts the developers in a bind. 

 

What if something ends up not working at all? Do you leave it in the game or are you going to break your promise to the people who actually gave you their money maybe specifically to make these stretch goals happen? Are you going to half ass them if you run out of money or the game's direction changed too much?

 

Are you putting in Cad Nua knowing it doesn't really work that well and knowing the mechanics are strange (oh hello "time" passing on quest updates) and that the whole stronghold concept feels tacked onto the game afterwards? Do you remove numenera crafting? Are you putting in Twin Elms or cutting the extra oasis city rather than having it underdeveloped and boring?

 

Tough choices I guess. Wouldn't want to make them.

[majestic]

TBH, I wonder too if the obnoxious stuff like the way pathing works might also be the result of maintaining a common codebase with a console-enabled game. And that is not to say that one method is better than the other. We've all seen poor console to PC ports. In past years I can remember poor PC to console ports. So, it's not about one being better than the other. It's about fundamentally different interfaces requiring entirely different approaches to game design in order to fit their target platform well. I can no more conceive of a good port of Neverwinter Nights 1 to PS4 than I could imagine playing the original Tomb Raider with a keyboard and mouse.

 

I'm pretty sure Unity has a host of problems related to it working on virtually any platform you can think of, from a toaster oven to high end gaming PCs, but terrible pathfinding was always a feature of all the Infinity Engine games. TTON wouldn't be a worthy spiritual successor with good pathfinding so inXile probably broke it on purpose.

[kensu]

At least ToN has real NPCs, and not those horrible backer-written non-interactive Mary Sues that Pillars of Eternity had.

(Any word on if the sequel is going to have these terrible things?)

I bet you that one section of Sagus Cliffs has more real NPCs than the entirety of Pillars of Eternity.

[ShadySands]

I'm not sure what that means but I'd still take that bet

Edited March 11, 2017 by ShadySands

[Eumaios]

I thought the Pillars backer crafted NPCs were all non-essential. I have enjoyed the Tides NPCs, though. The Pillars bunch didn't seem horrible. Some were quite well done. The backers were all gold identified and so you could completely ignore them should you wish.

 

And, as an aside, I read somewhere that the design team paid tribute to one of the forum members here who had died. Veceris or Viceris. Something like that. They put a gold NPC for him if I got it right. Don't know anything else. I call that classy.

Edited March 11, 2017 by Eumaios

[Tigranes]

Reached the Bloom. I can live with the awful production values and presentation, and with the boring combat, but the real pity is that the writing lacks focus, and it's all over the place. It feels like someone took 6 different stories written according to the same overall concept, then mashed together. There's plenty of nice NPCs and stories, though their impact is tempered by all the drub you have to wade through; and there are interesting themes to explore, such as what 'responsibility' might be had across the parent-child castoff relation or indeed the tagline of what does one life matter, but they never really get to resonate across different NPCs and events because it's all so disconnected. You can see it in the area design - 90% of it is "here's a small clearing with 7 random visual artefacts you can click on each of which show entirely nonrelated stuff with 18 new place names and events".

 

I expected from the KS a good game but not a classic; at the moment its just hanging on by the edges to make that grade.

[Ganrich]

Reached the Bloom. I can live with the awful production values and presentation, and with the boring combat, but the real pity is that the writing lacks focus, and it's all over the place. It feels like someone took 6 different stories written according to the same overall concept, then mashed together. There's plenty of nice NPCs and stories, though their impact is tempered by all the drub you have to wade through; and there are interesting themes to explore, such as what 'responsibility' might be had across the parent-child castoff relation or indeed the tagline of what does one life matter, but they never really get to resonate across different NPCs and events because it's all so disconnected. You can see it in the area design - 90% of it is "here's a small clearing with 7 random visual artefacts you can click on each of which show entirely nonrelated stuff with 18 new place names and events".

 

I expected from the KS a good game but not a classic; at the moment its just hanging on by the edges to make that grade.

 

Yeah, the lack of following the theme of "What does one life matter" is very noticeable.  I think that is why I like Rhin so much.  Because that theme resonates with her very loudly.  I didn't feel it with the other companions, but perhaps that theme is a bit too of an every day occurrence in RPGs to be noticeable.  Because in an RPG when your player is involved... you one life seems to matter in every quest.  If that makes sense.  I don't know, but I do agree with you.

[anameforobsidian]

I finished it and liked it.  The writing and content density are better than Pillars, especially Pillars-base.  There's tons of content everywhere, and it's quite fun.  It might have been a bit too verbose, but that's just fine with me.
 
The systems design just isn't great.  Considering the inspiration, I know why they focused on content rather than design.  However, PST already had most of it's lower level spells and abilities made.  You still feel a murderous rush when you use Cloudkill for the first time even though it was made for other games.  The combat system just doesn't have much to offer.  PST had a great power ramp, and had better epic level spells than any other IE game.  TToN has something like four spells you use the whole game.  There are also a gazillion numenera, but most of the Numenera don't even have interesting effects.
 
I like the effort system, but they undermine it by being too generous with stat pool items, level ups and edge.  I don't know if I failed a skill check in the Bloom.  The interesting side effects for failure also seemed to go away. 
 
I admire the ambition of what they tried to achieve, and loved the atmosphere.  I just hope next time they remember that it's a game.
 

And I had a thematic problem with the ending.  PSTs punishment ending worked better than TToN's because it's the difference between and individual and a class of people.

[EUIX]

If you look at the "first peek" trailer, it definitely looks like there were significant downgrades. Around the 2:00 mark, I remember being amazed by how fluid and impressive the model animations were (look at the way the character runs up the path and shifts their weight when turning). 

 

Edited March 13, 2017 by EUIX

[kensu]

I wonder if the changes weren't to get rid of an "uncanny valley" effect. That video has always bothered me, and I've never been able to figure out why. It was like I was watching a claymation video. The ripples in the water especially feel wrong... Anyone else get a similar vibe?

Edited March 13, 2017 by kensu

[Lexx]

They drastically reduced it, but people still complain in the final game that characters are moving weird. I remember the alpha or beta to have the same movement as in the video above and while it looked cool, it played really bad. Basically every time you clicked somewhere you had to wait a second or two till the characters started moving at all.

[Tigranes]

Well, they still have that problem...

[majestic]

Well, they still have that problem...

 

No. I mean, yes, they do, but it's nothing like the ice skating madness of the first playable version.

[Katphood]

Boy, is it fun to lie and to misinform people in this game.  

Edited March 15, 2017 by Katphood