From the Twitch Q&A: bashing shields

[Braven]

I feel like shield bashing would fit naturally as a "Shield Proficiency" modal ability that a character can optionally take.  The current Pillars 2 design has modal abilities now linked to weapon proficiencies.  For example, great swords unlock "Savage Attack" and short bows unlock "Rapid Shot".  Perhaps shield bashing, instead of being an enchantment, could work with any shield and be activated as modal ability so you can choose whether or not to use it based on the situation.  Against certain enemies, it might not be worth trying to bash them.  Obviously, against a crush immune enemy, you would want to deactivate it since it would do no damage. 

 

Additionally, I think the damage and accuracy should be modified to scale with level (the current problem is that it doesn't scale well while weapons do).  I also like the idea of having it target fortitude and inflict a small stun or daze effect instead of damage.  That would better fit the role of the sword & board character, who is supposed to be focused on a defensive fighting style.  If we just increased the damage and speed of bash, it would start taking over the dual-weapon role.

Edited February 7, 2017 by Braven

[Varana]

PoE was literally unplayable

Bonus points for "literally". :D

[MaxQuest]

Not only then. The bash has lower ACC than the main weapon (even though it gets +1 per level since it's considered to be an ability), you can't enchant the bash damage or pimp it otherwise and even though the speed of the bash attack is faster than that of the main hand: it still slides between your normal main weapon attacks (which does a lot more damage) and delays them.

True. Bashing shield auto-attack damage starts to lag behind even before you achieve zero recover.

 

Can't say where the break even point is though. Maybe you can with your data at hand.

There are many variables to take into account. And unfortunately I don't have time to run the math right now.

But I feel that bashing shields were mostly made for low-level tanking when enemies don't have much DR. And had their potential used to the max, against hordes of low level xaurips (if you have stumbled somehow upon a DAoM potion).

 

Scâth Gwannek and Larder door become obsolete very fast.

Barricade is mostly used by a rogue with Deathblows.

And Dragon Maw for Fear Aura / Taste of the Hunt.

 

 

Btw, just checked: naked character with sword and bashing_shield who uses DAoM: has his mainhand recovery reduced by half, AND has zero recovery with shield bash attack. So it's confirmed, bashing shields do not get Single1HWeapRecoveryFactor penalty. They also don't benefit from Two-Handed Style. (had to check just-in-case)

Edited February 7, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Mygaffer]

 

Not only then. The bash has lower ACC than the main weapon (even though it gets +1 per level since it's considered to be an ability), you can't enchant the bash damage or pimp it otherwise and even though the speed of the bash attack is faster than that of the main hand: it still slides between your normal main weapon attacks (which does a lot more damage) and delays them.

True. Bashing shield auto-attack damage starts to lag behind even before you achieve zero recover.

 

Can't say where the break even point is though. Maybe you can with your data at hand.

There are many variables to take into account. And unfortunately I don't have time to run the math right now.

But I feel that bashing shields were mostly made for low-level tanking when enemies don't have much DR. And had their potential used to the max, against hordes of low level xaurips (if you have stumbled somehow upon a DAoM potion).

 

Scâth Gwannek and Larder door become obsolete very fast.

Barricade is mostly used by a rogue with Deathblows.

And Dragon Maw for Fear Aura / Taste of the Hunt.

 

 

Btw, just checked: naked character with sword and bashing_shield who uses DAoM: has his mainhand recovery reduced by half, AND has zero recovery with shield bash attack. So it's confirmed, bashing shields do not get Single1HWeapRecoveryFactor penalty. They also don't benefit from Two-Handed Style. (had to check just-in-case)

 

So you are saying the shield bash does not affect one handed weapon recovery? That is what the idea of the DPS hit is predicated on. I usually check these things myself but didn't, I guess I should have.

 

Bash still kind of sucks and something more interesting should be done with it.

[MaxQuest]

Are you manually extracting the combat log text and using the frames as time-stamp data points? This shows how lazy I am asking for a way to write the combat logs to a text file with CPU millisecond time-stamps so I can automate parsing. =)

No, I have added some logging to NotifyAttackComplete() function from AttackBase.cs. Thanks to IEMod Framework for making such injection possible.

This way I can get exact recovery duration values after performing any auto-attack attack. 

It's possible for some abilities too, full-attacks and some of spells are two-phased, so I will see only the data for last phase. In this situations I just use fraps, and count the frames. 

So you are saying the shield bash does not affect one handed weapon recovery?

I don't quite understand your question.

Mainhand will have the same recovery in [MH + Nothing], [MH + Simple Shield] or [MH + Bashing Shield] setups.

Although yes, a shield can be durganized, and reduce MH's single-weapon recovery penalty from -0.5 to -0.35.

 

---

To make it clear, imagine a naked 10 DEX character in following situations:

1. DW daggers: {[delay + MH attack + MH recovery] -> [delay + OH attack + OH recovery]}

2. Dagger + Bashing Shield: {[delay + MH attack + MH recovery] + [delay + OH attack + OH recovery]}

3. Dagger + Simple Shield: {[delay + MH attack + MH recovery]} -> {[delay + MH attack + MH recovery]}

4. Dagger + Nothing: {[delay + MH attack + MH recovery]} -> {[delay + MH attack + MH recovery]}

 

{} - repeating sequence

[] - full action

 

V1. There are no buffs:

1. DW daggers: {[5f + 20f + 16.66f] + [5f + 20f + 16.66f]}   (i.e. 41.66 frames action for MH, and same for OH)

2. Dagger + Bashing Shield: {[5f + 20f + 33.33f] + [5f + 20f + 16.66f]}   (i.e. 58.33 frames action for MH, and 41.66 for Shield)

3. Dagger + Simple Shield: {[5f + 20f + 33.33f]} -> {[5f + 20f + 33.33f]}  (i.e. 58.33 frames action for MH)

4. Dagger + Nothing: {[5f + 20f + 33.33f]} -> {[5f + 20f + 33.33f]}  (i.e. 58.33 frames action for MH)

 

V2. DAoM:

1. DW daggers: {[5f + 20f + 0f] + [5f + 20f + 0f]}   (i.e. 25 frames action for MH, and same for OH)

2. Dagger + Bashing Shield: {[5f + 20f + 16.66f] + [5f + 20f + 0f]}    (i.e. 41.66 frames action for MH, and 25 for Shield)

3. Dagger + Simple Shield: {[5f + 20f + 16.66f]} -> {[5f + 20f + 16.66f]}  (i.e. 41.66 frames action for MH)

4. Dagger + Nothing: {[5f + 20f + 16.66f]} -> {[5f + 20f + 16.66f]}  (i.e. 41.66 frames action for MH)

 

V3. Zero Recovery (assuming you have achieved it in all 4 cases):

1. DW daggers: {[5f + 20f + 0f] + [5f + 20f + 0f]}   (i.e. 25 frames action for MH, and same for OH)

2. Dagger + Bashing Shield: {[5f + 20f + 0f] + [5f + 20f + 0f]}   (i.e. 25 frames action for MH, and 25 for Shield) 

3. Dagger + Simple Shield: {[5f + 20f + 0f]} -> {[5f + 20f + 0f]}  (i.e. 25 frames action for MH)

4. Dagger + Nothing: {[5f + 20f + 0f]} -> {[5f + 20f + 0f]}  (i.e. 25 frames action for MH)

 

Summary:

1. [1H + Nothing] 

 - at zero recovery, is the best crit-based dps option, as you deal damage at the same rate as DW, while also having +12 acc and +15% hit-to-crit conversion from One-Handed Style.

 - it is the hardest setup to achieve zero recovery with

 - it is the worst setup for full attacks (alongside with [1H + Simple Shield])

 

2. [1H + Simple Shield]

 - at zero recovery, you deal damage at the same rate as DW, but also have a bonus of having a shield, plus extra def and reflex via Weapon and Shield Style talent

 - it is easier to achieve zero recovery than with [1H + Nothing] because durganized shield reduces 1H recovery penalty

 - it is the worst setup for full attacks (alongside with [1H + Nothing])

 

3. [1H + 1H] DW

 - is the easiest setup to achieve zero-recovery and Two-Handed Style helps to do it even faster

 - can keep Vulnerable Attack, without losing zero-recovery

 - is the best setup for full attacks, as you will strike with both weapons

 

4. [1H + Bashing Shield]

 - is a better setup for full attacks, than [1H + Nothing] or [1H + Simple Shield]. It's especially great if it has any procs attached to it, like Barricade does.

 - allows you to benefit from Shield defences, Durgan Enchant:Shield and Weapon and Shield Style talent

 - have the same attack/recovery as of small offhand weapon while dual-wielding; but has a higher interrupt duration 0.5 instead of 0.35

 - cannot be echanted with weapon quality enchants or lashes. 

 - at zero recovery, it is a clear dps loss (from auto-attack perspective) when compared with any other alternative. But it can be used by non-dps tanks, on whom you'd like to have some special effect, if present. 

 - this setup can provide a dps-gain over [1H + Simple Shield], but mostly in the early game and vs very low crush-DR monsters; and yeah the biggest gain would be if you have no recovery reducing means except DAoM potion.

Edited February 8, 2017 by MaxQuest

[draego]

We got a slight answer from josh in the stream and i quote "Bashing is not suppose to be crappy".  They said they were looking though

[Boeroer]

Success!

[MaxQuest]

Nice)

 

Btw is there a text version of that Q&A anywhere?

[Boeroer]

Maybe you can extract the captions from Youtube?

 

Edit: oh wait... there are none.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Boeroer

[Archaven]

The thing is that bashing shields reduce the dps compared to normal shields!

It seems you don't know about that (which is understandable).

Bashing doesn't speed up your attacks - so instead of hitting things with your good and sharp sword every 2 seconds, you will alternate between sword's good damage and the low damage of bashing. You will do less dps than a guy who uses a regular shield!

 

I have a question. Does the Shield Bash provides secondary effects such as minor stun or interruption? To me, a shield bearer shouldn't be really a damage dealer unless we are talking about action hack'n slash ala Diablo. 

 

If shield bash is dealing "comparable" damage similar with a shield without the ability, there really isn't really a need for this shield bash either. It would be much better that it provides lesser damage when shield bashing but it provides you a chance to trigger the secondary effects like stun and interruption. It's a trade-off in damage for better CC. I would like the secondary effects more than the same "comparable" damage which makes the ability pointless.

 

Of course.. my humble opinion.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Archaven

[Boeroer]

Sure... that's the whole point of the thread so far.

 

And I think you didn't understand why a bashing shield is worse than a normal shield. The reason may be that I'm not able to explain it properly.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Boeroer

[George_Truman]

I figured I'd offer up the idea of shield attacks remaining low damage but hit with high accuracy and potent interrupt. That keeps the damage/defense tradeoff while granting decent utility to the trait. I also thought bashing could work as a great 'specialization' modal with a dps/utility tradeoff. I feel like it ties in well with the low damage interrupt builds - especially the barbarian.

 

- just copy pasta'd from the other thread. I think its ok for bashing to be a dps loss as-is if it gives utility. I actually would like it more that way. I think it works really well as a modal too with that philosophy.

[JerekKruger]

One thing that needs to be considered when coming up with solutions to this problem is whether Bash should remain an enchantment for shields, or whether it should change to an ability/talent. The reason I think this is important is that if it remains an enchantment, and assuming the number of enchantments an item can have remains finite, it really needs to be an objective upgrade over not having Bash, otherwise it's wasting enchantment slots that could otherwise be used for actually positive enchantments.

 

However, if Bash were changed to an ability (probably a Fighter ability) or talent (if we want to make it more universal) then I think the various trade off ideas that people have suggested would work. Quite a few modals in PoE come with both positives and negatives, so having Bash do something similar (reduce damage output but give a higher chance to interrupt, or a chance to stun) would work quite well. In fact, at this point I think I've prefer Bash to go this way rather than remain an enchantment; and from a lore perspective it should be possibly to bash someone with any shield.

[MaxQuest]

I figured I'd offer up the idea of shield attacks remaining low damage but hit with high accuracy and potent interrupt.

In a way bashing shields already have better interrupt. A fast weapon like dagger has an interrupt duration of 0.35s, while bashing shield (which has the same attack_duration) has 0.5s.

 

The problem is that bash damage doesn't scale into late game.

An easy fix (V1) would be to make the following 3 changes:

 

1. make quality enchants on bashing shields to increase both shield properties and their damage + accuracy (like quality enchants on weapons do).

 

2. add a "spike shield" improvement which would mimic the lash enchant.

 

3. and re-balance the damage of bash itself:

 

Bashing 1: 6-9 

Bashing 2: 8-12 

Bashing 3: 10-15 

Bashing 4: 13-18 

 

to something like:

 

Bashing 1: 8-12 

Bashing 2: 9-13

Bashing 3: 10-14 

Bashing 4: 11-15 

 

in order to make it closer to the damage of regular dagger (9-13), and sword (11-16).

 

---

Other solution (V2), would be to change the 1). from V1 suggestion into: incorporate [damaging enchant] into bash base damage; and add a bashing_shield_talent that would increase it's accuracy.

Edited February 13, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Pel]

I think bashing should be toggleable (gives you a new modal) and does the same low damage it does currently but also has a -10 accuracy vs fortitude chance to prone an enemy for a few seconds or something, with bigger bashing shields proning enemies for slightly longer possibly.

[Pel]

Or maybe daze for smaller shields and prone for larger shields. That'd be cool, make logical sense, and add more strategical choices to the game.

[ushas]

I think bashing should be toggleable (gives you a new modal) and does the same low damage it does currently but also has a -10 accuracy vs fortitude chance to prone an enemy for a few seconds or something, with bigger bashing shields proning enemies for slightly longer possibly.

The modal toggle and adding prone/daze sound also interesting. However, if I'm not mistaken, many enemies have high Fortitude. So perhaps change it to something between (+0,+10) accuracy vs. Fort for Prone effect?

Edited February 14, 2017 by ushas

[Boeroer]

Maybe not, that would be too good. Weapons which cause effects "only" on crit (like overbearing or stunning enchantments) also use the weapon's acc against fortitude. Same with weapons which have a spellchance (x% of hits/crits trigger the effect).

 

Since bash is an ability it gets +1 ACC per level it usually has high enough ACC (comparable to the main weapon's ACC). If now every bash would cause a second roll against fortitude for an effect like prone it would be already better than those "on crit" weapons (Tall Grass, Godansthunyr, Badgradr's Barricade, you name it) or those with spell chance (Unlabored Blade, Dragon's Maw etc.).

 

And doing it on every hit or crit with -10 ACC against fortitude is no big difference than doing it on crit only with normal ACC. This would just add another new mechanic while the existing ones (on crit or spell chance) would do equally well.

 

An effect that would be ok if it would apply on every hit and crit would be a push of 0.5 or 1 meter or so. So every time you hit or crit (like 100% spell chance) there would be a push against fortitude. It's not a huge CC effect, but could be used to push a single enemy off of squishy companions or to drive them over the map or into a better position. Could be fun.

 

So, the simplest solution would be to add a on-crit effect or a spellchance to bash without additional enchantment costs. Something that causes either push, dazing, overbearing or stunning on crit or on x% of all hits/crits (although everything more than dazing seems to be too powerful as a general effect). This is already in the game engine and would be easy to add. For special shields, you could still add additional effects or replace the secondary bash effect. For example a polished silver shield could cause blind on crit or whatever.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Boeroer

[ushas]

ah, thanks for reminder about that +1 acc. I'm not sure why I thought Pel meant Prone on crit.

Pushing sounds fun. There are not so many items and abilities with Push effect on the player's disposal, I think.
Now if only a character could equip a bashing shield in each hand and starts pushing...

[Boeroer]

That would be awesome.