The US Election, Part XI

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

If it's radical and anti-USA to support the American workers over the bourgeoisieparasites called "the 1%", then **** it I'm a hardcore anti-USA radical. Your friends on wall street are parasites whose insight into the US economy has nothing to do with standard of living and is far removed from the experience of the American laborer. But please, tell us how everything is fine because GDP increased while ignorong how real wages have stagnated and underemployment/unemployment have increased.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

 

 

Decline is defined by having less of something than you had yesterday, not whatever one figure is relevant at any given moment.

 

 

Then I am not sure how you can possibly characterize the west as in decline.  Growth amongst lower and middle classes is terribly stagnant compared to the wealthy, but compared to the past most people are still seeing an improvement in most areas.  Food, shelter, clothing, health care, etc.  

 

 

Which past?

[BruceVC]

If it's radical and anti-USA to support the American workers over the bourgeoisieparasites called "the 1%", then **** it I'm a hardcore anti-USA radical. Your friends on wall street are parasites whose insight into the US economy has nothing to do with standard of living and is far removed from the experience of the American laborer. But please, tell us how everything is fine because GDP increased while ignorong how real wages have stagnated and underemployment/unemployment have increased.

KP I have no reason to lie to you, I understand your view of the US corporations and how you perceive they treat the average citizen. You consider the US banking sector as callous and greedy. But to say they parasites is unfair ?

 

Why is the banks fault for the reality of the American laborer.....can you honestly tell me you care about the average laborer?

 

Anyway I dont want to come across as dismissive or lacking in empathy but if you really think the US economy is doomed then you should be able to produce links?

[Hurlshort]

 

 

 

 

Decline is defined by having less of something than you had yesterday, not whatever one figure is relevant at any given moment.

 

 

Then I am not sure how you can possibly characterize the west as in decline.  Growth amongst lower and middle classes is terribly stagnant compared to the wealthy, but compared to the past most people are still seeing an improvement in most areas.  Food, shelter, clothing, health care, etc.  

 

 

Which past?

 

 

You can take any time period you want.  Food production, medical technology, and housing have all become better over time.  We aren't even a generation removed from asbestos in the walls.  Just look at the infant mortality rates over the last 80 years.  We've had this argument before.  Give me some real evidence that the western world is in decline as a whole, not a handful of tragic examples. 

[Volourn]

 "Give me some real evidence that the western world is in decline as a whole, not a handful of tragic examples."

 

Well... Nu Hitler will be the most powerful person in the world in a couple of months... at least according to the whiners in Kalfornia.

[imaenoon]

I told a group of folks during the primary, over a year ago, "[t]he only thing I can say to my gloating Democrat friends who relish the idea of him [Trump] getting the nomination is this... you might want him to run because you think he can't win, but be careful of whom you root for in the primary because he or she may become President."

 

Someone responded, "nless the American voting majority goes full on bonkers, there's no way Trump wins the Presidency. A segment of Republican voters are already crazy, so him winning the nomination -although remote- is still very possible."

 

 

After trump had secured the nomination, late in July, I started telling people that he could win. In July, I even bet some friends that he would win under specific conditions and those conditions were damned near exactly what happened. By September, I was pretty certain Hillary was still going to win, but I maintained my original proposition, which I put in my social media account in mid-September: "if Trump's within 2% of Clinton, he's going to win. Dead even he's going to have a respectable win. Even slightly ahead he's going to have a commanding win. I think HRC will get back ahead of him before the election and pull it out, but Trump has more support than the polls indicate. Not by a tremendous amount, but enough to shock some folks."

 

My point isn't to gloat, but to suggest that my positions on the post mortem are bolstered by my position before the election. Of course, I could be lying. ...But I'm not.

 

So, yeah, the economy is a big issue, although some of the commentary about economy in blue collar areas is hyperbole. Some of the areas that voted for Trump were unhappy about the economic conditions, and that did redound to the benefit of Trump. However, social issues were quite important in this election. As important as economy? As important as safety? Probably not, but maybe. These issues aren't as discrete as people contend. For example, clearly some people see illegal immigration as part and parcel of safety and their personal economy while being a social issue as well. Evangelical Christians were central to Donald Trump's victory. The danger isn't trivializing the economy. Clearly the economy is important in every election. Trivializing other causalities before hand showed you didn't understand what was happening. Trivializing them now shows you don't understand what happened.

 

I always ask why bother, but clearly I feel compelled to participate in this discussion, so I'd probably best just stop being cowardly, defeatist, and lazy and let this post stay unedited.

[Ganrich]

Already seeing the facebook crackdown on "fake" news. This is kind of scary, but this might be their death in the end. Their stock might drop like twitters given time and more of this nonsense. Some of the sources are no less credible than CNN has been this season.

[Malcador]

Would be interesting to see how they determine the news being fake or not. I still remember seeing a fake Megyn Kelly story on there, didn't take long to find it was bogus though.

[Guard Dog]

At first there will be ample hay to mow but eventually "fake" news will end being any story the facebook admins don't like or runs counter to their politics. Whether the story is factual or not will not matter by then

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

 

 

 

 

Decline is defined by having less of something than you had yesterday, not whatever one figure is relevant at any given moment.

 

 

Then I am not sure how you can possibly characterize the west as in decline.  Growth amongst lower and middle classes is terribly stagnant compared to the wealthy, but compared to the past most people are still seeing an improvement in most areas.  Food, shelter, clothing, health care, etc.  

 

 

Which past?

 

 

You can take any time period you want.  Food production, medical technology, and housing have all become better over time.  We aren't even a generation removed from asbestos in the walls.  Just look at the infant mortality rates over the last 80 years.  We've had this argument before.  Give me some real evidence that the western world is in decline as a whole, not a handful of tragic examples. 

 

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/09/for-most-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/

 

http://www.mybudget360.com/cost-of-living-2014-inflation-1950-vs-2014-data-housing-cars-college/

 

http://prospect.org/article/40-year-slump

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2012/07/31/wages-arent-stagnating-theyre-plummeting/

[Malcador]

I guess, but still would be nice to see the way they'd engineer it - this is why OSS is good! - rather than let my imagination run with it. Maybe they will cross reference with more credible media and/or clear C&P jobs ?

[Ganrich]

At first there will be ample hay to mow but eventually "fake" news will end being any story the facebook admins don't like or runs counter to their politics. Whether the story is factual or not will not matter by then

I've already had links blocked for things on the right side of politics that were not "fake." I hate sounding conspiratorial, but it seems an attempt to funnel people back toward the MSM. Either way, it's a bit much and I have huge issue with it.

[Hurlshort]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Decline is defined by having less of something than you had yesterday, not whatever one figure is relevant at any given moment.

 

 

Then I am not sure how you can possibly characterize the west as in decline.  Growth amongst lower and middle classes is terribly stagnant compared to the wealthy, but compared to the past most people are still seeing an improvement in most areas.  Food, shelter, clothing, health care, etc.  

 

 

Which past?

 

 

You can take any time period you want.  Food production, medical technology, and housing have all become better over time.  We aren't even a generation removed from asbestos in the walls.  Just look at the infant mortality rates over the last 80 years.  We've had this argument before.  Give me some real evidence that the western world is in decline as a whole, not a handful of tragic examples. 

 

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/09/for-most-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/

 

http://www.mybudget360.com/cost-of-living-2014-inflation-1950-vs-2014-data-housing-cars-college/

 

http://prospect.org/article/40-year-slump

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2012/07/31/wages-arent-stagnating-theyre-plummeting/

 

 

I am not disagreeing that the stagnant wages are a major problem in our society, in fact it is the one thing I mentioned earlier.  But that is one issue among many, and despite decades of it being a problem, people are still driving around in their increasingly safe cars, getting increasingly sophisticated medical care, and eating fairly inexpensive junk food that makes that medical care so important.

[Oerwinde]

 

Also against Natives.

Knock me over with a feather! For whatever reason, Ive never once considered that NA's would also be in Canada. Obviously things didn't go well in the US but whats the relationship with the Canadian government? Are there reservations in Canada too?

It was a less hostile relationship for a long time, rather than running them off their land we signed treaties that limited them to their reserves. In the early 20th century though there was an effort to assimilate the native population. The children were put into schools where they attempted to strip them of their culture and make them "canadian" there was rampant physical and sexual abuse in these schools. Also, now many of the treaties have expired, resulting in ongoing negotiations for new treaties, as the lands that would need to be returned are kinda populated now or have privately owned resource developments.

[majestic]

KP I have no reason to lie to you, I understand your view of the US corporations and how you perceive they treat the average citizen. You consider the US banking sector as callous and greedy. But to say they parasites is unfair ?

Why is the banks fault for the reality of the American laborer.....can you honestly tell me you care about the average laborer?

 

Anyway I dont want to come across as dismissive or lacking in empathy but if you really think the US economy is doomed then you should be able to produce links?

 

 

It's not only the US banking sector - they're like that all over the world. So what would you call the ongoing food gambling by banks if not parasitical? Food prices are going up to profit a few rich arseholes while those who already are beyond poor suffer hunger and the average laborer is facing a net-loss in purchasing parity (due to the same rising prices, obviously). 

 

All the while at the same time those producing the food are happily paid barely enough to survive or are heavily subsidised.

 

And that's not even touching corporations laying off workers with no real reason beyond improving their stock values or doing the tax dodging game so states have less tax income and, well, of course, won't fix the loopholes but rather cut social support, in turn - yeah, negatively affecting the poor again. Oh, and nothing is being done about that becaue there are entire nations whose only raison d’être is to support tax dodging.

 

Dividend et impera, as the saying goes. No, wait...

 

The worst part about it all is that the left wing politicians - or those that should be the left at least, are doing nothing because they too profit. So right-wing populists are garnering votes by pretending to support the little man, while unabashed right wing politics have actually gotten us there in the first place. That, and the worker-betrayal of all labour parties among the Western nations.

Edited November 18, 2016 by majestic

[Zoraptor]

Heh, if there's one thing that illustrates how fundamentally borked the system is it's the double and again inconsistent whammy of 'free' trade deals and agricultural subsidies. Because, of course, agriculture is excluded from just about every 'F'TA to protect farmers whether they be 19th century style german or french farmers sucking on the CAP or US corps frolicking in the pork barrel.

 

Meanwhile, IMF demands poor African farmers open their markets to those subsidised goods and grow coffee or bananas instead of proper food so they can buy those subsidised staples. Then the banks decide to do some speculation on the futures market and drive staple prices through the roof. It's a perfect vicious- or virtuous if you're a soulless economic drone- circle where you pump money out of the poor and into your own pockets, plus you get cheap coffee and bananas and a perpetually beholden country out of the deal.

 

Banks do the exact same thing within their own countries. The whole point of 'sub prime' loans was to give people loans they could never pay back to get a few years interest out of them before bankrupting or mortgagee selling the property. Works beaut, until the housing market tanks and the bank can't cover legal costs and the mortgage primary out of the bloated house price increase any more- but at least you're too big to fail so the little guy ends up paying anyway in the bail out.

 

Banks do do essential stuff as well, but the bad stuff is outright parasitical and done solely to benefit themselves to the absolute detriment of those getting their services. And it still goes on. Most reputable companies understand that signing their customers up to bogus services without their knowledge is the preserve of scam artists, but that's what Wells Fargo was doing for over four years.

[Hurlshort]

Well I'm guessing Trump will not be the guy to regulate the banking industry.  But hey, maybe he'll be the next Andrew Jackson.  Who knows?

[BruceVC]

Already seeing the facebook crackdown on "fake" news. This is kind of scary, but this might be their death in the end. Their stock might drop like twitters given time and more of this nonsense. Some of the sources are no less credible than CNN has been this season.

But there is an issue with fake news and the reality is we should be grateful for Facebook for addressing this 

 

Until Trump won  I would have been shocked by this post ...and obviously I would have felt obligated to explain to you that you cannot have such a negative view of a channel like CNN, its not that you not entitled to your own opinion but it would have seemed irrational for anyone living in the USA to criticize the media in such an unusual way 

 

But the Trump victory has taught me some humility, its not about what the majority of people in the US think about the media. Your view deserves to be respected because many people shared it and I may not agree but my candidate lost  

[BruceVC]

 

 

Also against Natives.

Knock me over with a feather! For whatever reason, Ive never once considered that NA's would also be in Canada. Obviously things didn't go well in the US but whats the relationship with the Canadian government? Are there reservations in Canada too?

It was a less hostile relationship for a long time, rather than running them off their land we signed treaties that limited them to their reserves. In the early 20th century though there was an effort to assimilate the native population. The children were put into schools where they attempted to strip them of their culture and make them "canadian" there was rampant physical and sexual abuse in these schools. Also, now many of the treaties have expired, resulting in ongoing negotiations for new treaties, as the lands that would need to be returned are kinda populated now or have privately owned resource developments.

 

Do you do any outreach programs with minorities? Just from a cultural exposure perspective and I imagine it would be appreciated?

 

 

volo whats your view on Canadian NA's ?

[BruceVC]

 

KP I have no reason to lie to you, I understand your view of the US corporations and how you perceive they treat the average citizen. You consider the US banking sector as callous and greedy. But to say they parasites is unfair ?

Why is the banks fault for the reality of the American laborer.....can you honestly tell me you care about the average laborer?

 

Anyway I dont want to come across as dismissive or lacking in empathy but if you really think the US economy is doomed then you should be able to produce links?

 

 

It's not only the US banking sector - they're like that all over the world. So what would you call the ongoing food gambling by banks if not parasitical? Food prices are going up to profit a few rich arseholes while those who already are beyond poor suffer hunger and the average laborer is facing a net-loss in purchasing parity (due to the same rising prices, obviously). 

 

All the while at the same time those producing the food are happily paid barely enough to survive or are heavily subsidised.

 

And that's not even touching corporations laying off workers with no real reason beyond improving their stock values or doing the tax dodging game so states have less tax income and, well, of course, won't fix the loopholes but rather cut social support, in turn - yeah, negatively affecting the poor again. Oh, and nothing is being done about that becaue there are entire nations whose only raison d’être is to support tax dodging.

 

Dividend et impera, as the saying goes. No, wait...

 

The worst part about it all is that the left wing politicians - or those that should be the left at least, are doing nothing because they too profit. So right-wing populists are garnering votes by pretending to support the little man, while unabashed right wing politics have actually gotten us there in the first place. That, and the worker-betrayal of all labour parties among the Western nations.

 

You guys in the EU need to start being concerned about France and Marie Le Penn....its unlikely but she may win and she is adamant she will get France to leave

 

I hope she wont win, I cannot keep saying this as it gets tiresome but if France leaves France will suffer devastating economic consequences but  the overall EU will also suffer and maybe even dissolve 

 

 

I hope this act of insanity is avoided but end of the day this is really about you guys affirming loyalty to the greatest trading block in the world, the EU works and it works well

 

But if you really dont believe that, I can least say I did try to warn you 

[licketysplit]

I hope France leaves the EU. Also, the hilarity of Obama and the left warning people of fake news. Lol. They've done nothing but benefit from fake news by mainstream outlets. That scumbag can't get out of office soon enough. 

[BruceVC]

I hope France leaves the EU. Also, the hilarity of Obama and the left warning people of fake news. Lol. They've done nothing but benefit from fake news by mainstream outlets. That scumbag can't get out of office soon enough. 

I am too tired to have this argument ....you win for now

 

But why would you think the EU collapsing is a good thing...can you name just 2 things?

[imaenoon]

I am too tired to have this argument ....you win for now

haha Comedy. The only true way to 'win' on the internet. Wear out everyone else and claim your victory.

[BruceVC]

 

I am too tired to have this argument ....you win for now

haha Comedy. The only true way to 'win' on the internet. Wear out everyone else and claim your victory.

 

 

Yeah, there comes a time when you must admit you to take a break 

[Gorth]