The Weird, Random, and Interesting things that Fit Nowhere Else Thread

[Pidesco]

I agree with GD. First off, the idea that a monument glorifies something is a bit off. The Vietnam war monument doesn't glorify the Vietnam war. It is a reminder of what our country has been through.

 

Usually statues of guys in impressive poses aren't built to be a poignant criticism of those guys and a reminder of the terrible things they did. From what I read the monuments being removed were all built in support of the Lost Cause narrative, which seems kind of abhorrent to me.

 

Quote on one of the monuments, covered up in 1981:

 

 

McEnery and Penn having been elected governor and lieutenant-governor by the white people were duly installed by this overthrow of carpetbag government, ousting the usurpers, Governor Kellogg (white) and Lieutenant-Governor Antoine (colored). United States troops took over the state government and reinstated the usurpers but the national election of November 1876 recognized white supremacy in the South and gave us our state.

 

Also, the monuments will be moved to a museum, apparently.

[Guard Dog]

I hate to say this but there was a time I was an advocate of the "Lost Cause" narrative. It was the result of idealism mixed with a lack of knowledge on the actual history. Please don't take  this wrong Hurlshot it's not intended like it might sound. The history you learn in school can teach you what happened. But if you really want to understand the WHY and the impact of the WHAT. you have to take an interest and learn on your own. For the last 15 years or so the Civil War and Reconstruction have been subjects I've read and studied a great deal. More than enough to know the Lost Cause story is just what I said, a mix of idealism and lack of understanding.  The only thing more abhorrent to me than erasing history is revising it to fit modern mores. It should be remembered just as it happened. The good, bad, and ugly.

 

As terrible as the whole affair was, not secession so much as secession in defense of slavery, there was a lot of credit gained even by people in the South. The "Lost Cause" story calls it a bad war fought by good men. That much is true... for the most part. From a military standpoint what the CSA Army and Navy accomplished were remarkable. Particularly Lee. Had the war not happened no one would ever have heard of Robert E. Lee. He missed the Mexican War. He was in Texas,a middling Captain of no particular note, when Beauregard gave the order to fire on Ft. Sumter. Before Virginia seceded he was a Colonel and one of two regimental commanders in the 2nd Cavalry Brigade of the US Army.

 

One of histories greatest ironies I think is that exact same Brigade, later under the command of one of my favorite historical figures, John Buford would end up depriving Lee of the chance for a victory at Gettysburg that would have seriously altered the course of history.

 

But I digress. Sorry, I can talk about this stuff all day. What Lee and the CSA Army was able to do, out numbered and out supplied in every battle they took the field for was remarkable. Things like that are worth remembering. Maybe not in glory, but at least in recognition.

[redneckdevil]

So they are not stopping at the monuments but also renaming street, schools, etc names that are connected to the civil war.

Basically a purge.

Virginia is also protesting the same that's trying to happen there.

[Bartimaeus]

Are they bringing the works of art to museums or something, at least? Like Guard Dog said, some of these folks weren't necessarily bad people - Robert E. Lee certainly deserves great respect - so it would be a shame if the works just disappeared into the night.

 

(e): Pidesco already answered this, whoops: yes, they will be.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Bartimaeus

[Malcador]

Such is the fate of traitors.

[Guard Dog]

Such is the fate of traitors.

That's not an entirely fair characterization. The United States in those days was nothing like it is today. It really was a union of 33 largely independent states by today's standard. The power of the Federal Government was weak compared to today. If you were a citizen of Virginia you were more likely to consider yourself a Virginian than an American. Gen George Thomas was an excellent commander. He served under Grant in the west and won a number of major victories. He was outnumbered at Chickamunga and held against Johnson. He defeated Gen John Bell Hood at Franklin & Nashville, which essentially knocked Tennessee out of the war. He was born in Virginia and chose to remain with the Federal army. You could actually make a case he was more of a traitor to his home and family than Lee was. He lost everything for his choice and even was refused command of the western theater by Lincoln despite Grants suggestion because he was a southerner.

 

If the war did nothing else if forged a national identity where there was not one before. Had slavery been killed in the crib during the ratification of the Constitution, as it should have been, the US would be a very different country today. So different it's difficult to even guess what it would look like.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Guard Dog

[Gromnir]

gifted has ruined us.  can't see a quirky drone story w/o thinking we should link in this place, 'cause o' gifted.

 

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/one-day-marines-could-be-building-drones-battlefield-180963383/

 

as to civil war monuments, am admitted conflicted.  is understandable for folks to reject the glorification o' certain personages. monuments to nathan bedford forrest is gonna deserve questioning.  idolize those who prosecuted a war in part to maintain slavery is o' dubious merit.  at same time, act as if it would be better to erase or forget james longstreet is equal repugnant to us.

 

oh, and robert e. lee, while a brilliant general, were ultimate the wrong general for the south.  the north never genuine committed its full resources to the war, which is kinda bizarre when you think 'bout it.  everyday life in nyc remained largely unchanged during the war, and those northern ivy league schools were still having rowing competitions on sunday afternoons. is our opinion lee were the wrong kinda general for the war the south shoulda' been fighting.  massed men walking 'cross fields into waves o' oncoming rifle fire were wrong tactics.  attempt to attack north in 1863 were clear wrong approach.  lee were a brilliant military commander fighting the wrong way in a bad war.

 

regardless, we don't mind removal o' all the old civil war monuments much.  am worried 'bout attempts to forget rather than confront.  alternative suggestion: paint all such monuments lurid red. all those nice bronze statues o' lee and davis and jackson could stay, but only if painted a symbolic bright red. do same for ole miss mascot. stone mountain. etc. paint the marble and bronze red makes less likely to forget than removal, yes? 'course am doubtful most sons o' the south would approve o' our solution.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Wrath of Dagon]

Davis and Lee today, Washington and Jefferson tomorrow.

[Gromnir]

slippery slope nonsense aside, am not a fan o' jefferson.  once he became president, his hypocrisy were exposed. try to destroy the Court.  made unconstitutional louisiana purchase. jefferson out-federaled the federalists by miles.  get enough people to vote for representatives who wanna remove jefferson image or pass legislation to do same?  not got a problem.  why should democratic process be circumvented to protect certain golden calves? 

 

...

 

our pov is a bit different though.  wouldn't shed a single tear if a decaying military satellite fell out of orbit and struck mount rushmore.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited May 19, 2017 by Gromnir

[Guard Dog]

oh, and robert e. lee, while a brilliant general, were ultimate the wrong general for the south.  the north never genuine committed its full resources to the war, which is kinda bizarre when you think 'bout it.  everyday life in nyc remained largely unchanged during the war, and those northern ivy league schools were still having rowing competitions on sunday afternoons. is our opinion lee were the wrong kinda general for the war the south shoulda' been fighting.  massed men walking 'cross fields into waves o' oncoming rifle fire were wrong tactics.  attempt to attack north in 1863 were clear wrong approach.  lee were a brilliant military commander fighting the wrong way in a bad war.

 

That is a case of strategy not really catching up with technology. 90% of the Officers of both sides (this would drop a LOT by war's end) were graduates of West Point, VMI, and places like that. They were taught Napoleonic tactics because that is what suited the weapons of the day. Many of them were also veterans of Mexico and there the infantry used the .69 caliber model 1816 musket. Smooth bore muskets were fast to reload but useless beyond 75 yards and very inaccurate. The only way to use them effectively was to fire in unison from a massed formation. By 1861 some of the state militias were still using them and many southern militias were using the British Brown Bess, but most of the regular army were carrying the 1861 Springfield. It was a muzzle loaded percussion rifle. They had a max range of 500 yards but were deadly inside of 300. Marching in formation against that was suicidal. Just ask Col Oliver Howard who got the 3rd & 4th Maine regiment killed almost to the last man assaulting the bald hills at Bull Run. By the time the Manassas Campaing was finished both sides had changed tactics to firing and advancing by regiment rather than the stand and fire of the musket days. And by the Battle of Yellow Tavern near the war's end even that was gone and regimental sized engagements became company sized since it was easier to cover the movements of small bodies of troops,

[Guard Dog]

slippery slope nonsense aside, am not a fan o' jefferson.  once he became president, his hypocrisy were exposed. try to destroy the Court.  made unconstitutional louisiana purchase. jefferson out-federaled the federalists by miles.  get enough people to vote for representatives who wanna remove jefferson image or pass legislation to do same?  not got a problem.  why should democratic process be circumvented to protect certain golden calves? 

 

...

 

our pov is a bit different though.  wouldn't shed a single tear if a decaying military satellite fell out of orbit and struck mount rushmore.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Considering where it is I guess I don;t blame you

[Raithe]

For the feel-good "aww" story to end the week.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6qJ3jSm5l0

[Amentep]

Given that most of the 'confederate' statues that I've heard of came out of the 1880s Jim Crow era or the post-"Birth of a Nation" Klan revival period, its hard to argue that their existence wasn't intended as a pro-Confederate south statement, and therefore - like the 'confederate flag', aka the Battle Flag of the Army of North Virginia, are hard to ignore in the timing of their creation with respect to what they symbolize

 

I'm against the destroying of art pieces.  But moving them to museums where they can be provided a context that sitting around the city or on a state capitol lawn isn't a bad idea where possible, IMO.

[Wrath of Dagon]

There used to be the idea of historical preservation. But I guess PC is more important.

[Gfted1]

Offensive books, to burn or not to burn? Maybe hide them away in a museum? Discuss.

[Amentep]

There used to be the idea of historical preservation. But I guess PC is more important.

 

People made the same argument against the removal of the Battle Flag of the Army of North Virginia during the Confederacy from the Georgia flag.  Problem is that was added to the Georgia flag in the 1950s as a reaction to rulings that schools were to be integrated in the South; until that time that flag had never flown for Georgia (its possible that Confederate ships may have had a similar flag while at the port in Savannah as the Confederate naval jack is a similar design).  Short of being the state flag for 45 years, was the flag really historic in such a way that it needed preservation outside of a museum or texts discussing the flag of Georgia?

 

[Wrath of Dagon]

The issue is a bit different in that case. You don't have to have the same flag forever, since the flag represents the state the way a random memorial does not. Also it's a question of whether 45 years is enough to be truly historic. Hard for me to see any of this as anything other than grievance mongering in your face revenge taking.

[Gromnir]

 

oh, and robert e. lee, while a brilliant general, were ultimate the wrong general for the south.  the north never genuine committed its full resources to the war, which is kinda bizarre when you think 'bout it.  everyday life in nyc remained largely unchanged during the war, and those northern ivy league schools were still having rowing competitions on sunday afternoons. is our opinion lee were the wrong kinda general for the war the south shoulda' been fighting.  massed men walking 'cross fields into waves o' oncoming rifle fire were wrong tactics.  attempt to attack north in 1863 were clear wrong approach.  lee were a brilliant military commander fighting the wrong way in a bad war.

 

That is a case of strategy not really catching up with technology. 90% of the Officers of both sides (this would drop a LOT by war's end) were graduates of West Point, VMI, and places like that. They were taught Napoleonic tactics because that is what suited the weapons of the day. Many of them were also veterans of Mexico and there the infantry used the .69 caliber model 1816 musket. Smooth bore muskets were fast to reload but useless beyond 75 yards and very inaccurate. The only way to use them effectively was to fire in unison from a massed formation. By 1861 some of the state militias were still using them and many southern militias were using the British Brown Bess, but most of the regular army were carrying the 1861 Springfield. It was a muzzle loaded percussion rifle. They had a max range of 500 yards but were deadly inside of 300. Marching in formation against that was suicidal. Just ask Col Oliver Howard who got the 3rd & 4th Maine regiment killed almost to the last man assaulting the bald hills at Bull Run. By the time the Manassas Campaing was finished both sides had changed tactics to firing and advancing by regiment rather than the stand and fire of the musket days. And by the Battle of Yellow Tavern near the war's end even that was gone and regimental sized engagements became company sized since it was easier to cover the movements of small bodies of troops,

 

is no question tactics failed to match new technologies.  took far too long for lee to recognize.  there were officers, north and south, who did see that the fundamental changes in warfare required changes in strategy and tactics.  lee were honorable and brilliant, but he didn't comprehend how warfare had evolved 'til it were too late.  shoulda' listened to longstreet and others.  given the disadvantages the south had in terms o' manpower, manufacturing, and the absence o' an empowered centralized government, lee were fighting the war the wrong way.

 

is perhaps a sad/welcome (depending on your geographic location) irony to be recognizing how lee's brilliance prevented any chance o' a military leader other than lee being placed in charge o' southern forces.  lee's many victories were pyrrhic.  the victories lee achieved, victories which saw the sacrifice o' many thousands o' irreplaceable men and tons o' slow replaced material, doomed the south.  if lee had lost more frequent, perhaps the south would tried to fight a different war.  will never know.

 

the gifted book example is hardly analogous.  would only apply to government approved books, no? have a city take a book off required reading list 'cause it glorifies misogyny or slavery might be actual parallel.  where does one have books forced 'pon them by tthe government save in school?  even so, am agreeing how removal o' books such as huckleberry finn and the sun also rises, books frequent accused o' racism and misogyny, is disappointing. am saddened when such books is removed from high school lists 'cause o' misguided notions  o' cultural or gender sensitivity.  has always been a problem with democracy, eh? get enough stoopid people to agree to something and it becomes law just so long as it don't violate the constitution.  

 

keep in mind the present issue is only referencing public statuary and monuments.  the state/local/fed government puts up a statue and am not seeing any good reason for preventing removal by the same process.  private owned is a far different scenario.  if gifted wants to keep his nathan bedford forrest or lawn jockey statue in his backyard, we would be questioning his taste and judgement, but would be little the government could/should do 'bout it.  keep your offensive books.  keep your curious statue o' ______.  public display o' such stuff is a complete different issue, no?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps the notion o' endurance granting historical significance worthy o' insulation is asinine.  one argument for maintaining southern slavery (pre civil war) and racism (post civil war) were the idiocy o' a need to maintain southern culture and heritage.  do something bad for a long enough time don't grant historical significance.  

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/80345-charleston-church-massacre/?p=1710589

Edited May 19, 2017 by Gromnir

[Gfted1]

But these books are freely available inside government, state and federal buildings. Why would they support the availability of such material in public places? Someone could see it and become offended.

[Hurlshort]

There used to be the idea of historical preservation. But I guess PC is more important.

 

I'm not quite sure what the statue has to do with historical preservation, though. I mean, unless that statue is placed in a location that is historically relevant. For example, my city will often put up different works of art in the downtown area, and then move them after a year or so and cycle in new stuff. Why are these statues untouchable? They aren't melting them down or anything crazy like that, they are placing them in an educational setting, it seems.

 

Basically I agree with you that the reason is suspect for these statues to be moved (the PC angle) but I question whether they need to be there for historical preservation. 

[Gromnir]

But these books are freely available inside government, state and federal buildings.

so what?  you are arguing simple to make a bad point.  you suggested "burn" or "hide away" books.  the government never owned Gromnir's books or the ideas they contain.  if the government tried to come to Gromnir's home and take our bust o' nietzsche and burn it or hide it away, we would be mad as hell.  

 

converse, if tomorrow the city o' new orleans placed a mammoth sized version o' our nietzsche bust in a municipal park, who would be offended if a week later they decided to move it to a museum instead?  one or two diehard thus spoke zarathustra fans? even if there were huge uproar or resistance, then how else other than ordinary democratic process should one resolve the kerfuffle?  

 

seriously folks.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gfted1]

I mean, 725 Pelican Ave, New Orleans, LA 70114 (NO public library) is a state financed building. Inside is filled wall to wall, floor to ceiling with state financed books. Many of these books make angry for . Why is this state funded acceptable?

[Gromnir]

I mean, 725 Pelican Ave, New Orleans, LA 70114 (NO public library) is a state financed building. Inside is filled wall to wall, floor to ceiling with state financed books. Many of these books make <someone> angry for <reasons>. Why is this state funded <blight on humanity> acceptable?

if the city of new orleans decided to get rid of their library, what other than the democratic process would or should stop them from doing so? 

 

you aren't making sense.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Wrath of Dagon]

Meanwhile the Lenin statue is still there: http://www.saint-petersburg.com/monuments/ploshchad-lenina/   Many have been removed, but not this one, not because most people admire Lenin, but because it's an iconic statue and a pivotal moment in history.

[Gfted1]

Isnt that the exact rationale for the various book burnings throughout history?