Turkey shoots down russian jet

[Drowsy Emperor]

Gfted guilty of siding with Russians. Now I've seen it all.

 

/thread

[Gfted1]

Это все верно товарищ.

[BruceVC]

 

Of course that would be your response ....its not like you could admit you were rude

That's because I don't think it was rude.

 

But upon careful consideration I probably do owe you an apology. See, I come here to mentally relax, have a few laughs, occasionally poke fun, etc., not to upset people. I know you take your advocacy du jour seriously and you've obviously become very upset so, apologies BruceVC. I will endeavor to curtail any responses to you. :brofist:

 

Apology accepted

 

You see I expect Drowsy and Zora to call me  a troll because we are ideology apart  in this and all debates I was ultimately  defending the West in the Syria conflict. I am not doing it because I want people in the West who are active on this forum to support me, I do it because this would be a major annoyance and fundamental issue to the West and USA  if in fact Erogan was behind the rise of ISIS

 

So of course when an American forum member calls me a troll and stupid I would get annoyed...but I also overreacted

 

Anyway I  need to not be so inconsistent between discussions because then I create  a certain impression which people think is actually my normal state

[Darkpriest]

I would put this in the rumors section, interesting if true, but still only rumors until anything official can be extracted:

 

http://www.nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russia-getting-ready-send-120-additional-combat-aircraft-14488

[Gfted1]

Damn, that TOS-1 is a sexy beast! Thermobaric rockets! Why am I just learning of this?

[Drowsy Emperor]

Out of the entire soviet/russian arsenal I like the Mi24 Hind the most because it looks so ****ing mean and it has an impressive operational history.

 

The kamov ka-50 heli is also awesome but it hasn't seen nearly as much warfare.

[Zoraptor]

Mi-28 is pretty impressive too, though I can't imagine it being all that useful in Syria.

 

I actually mentioned TOS-1 earlier, IIRC- there's a video of a buratino lighting up a hillside in Latakia on youtube. Quite impressive, I certainly wouldn't want to be on the receiving end; though it's pretty far from MOAB level impressive.

 

And in rather unsurprising news, apparently the arab side of the 'coalition' hasn't actually bombed ISIS in multiple months. Even Jordan, who got one of their pilots burnt alive hasn't bombed them in 4 months.

 

I would put this in the rumors section, interesting if true, but still only rumors until anything official can be extracted:

 

http://www.nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russia-getting-ready-send-120-additional-combat-aircraft-14488

 

It's more than rumour, some extra deployment is definite. The 120 certainly isn't confirmed though and would almost certainly be 'copters and planes combined, perhaps also including strategic bombers based in Russia. That would also require more SAMs and troops to guard the air bases- certainly there have been a lot of new weapons deliveries since there are T-72Bs and even T-90s* in theatre and in actual action instead of just glorified guard duty now, including ones with improved protection against anti tank missiles (modern explosive reactive armour and the shtora soft kill system).

 

*which are really just rebadged modern T-72s, russian tank builders are as bad as nVidia at rebadging old stuff as new.

 

Not really Turkey related, but ISIS seems to have capture and beheaded a Russian:

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/isis-releases-video-purportedly-showing-beheading-alleged-russian-spy-n472921

 

He's almost certainly just some unfortunate chechen/ dagestani who has pissed off an emir or tried to desert and is being made an example of to make a point. He's a russian from the north caucasus, as is the guy doing the beheading for that matter but I doubt Russia or anyone else (potentially except some arab states) has much human intelligence at all within ISIS, far too easy for them to get randomly killed given that there are multiple different groups bombing them. If anyone has much human intelligence it's probably Assad's Mukhabarat and their contacts within the civilian population. Summary execution of 'collaborators' 'spies' or 'fifth columnists' in graphic manner is pretty common even in more moderate rebel areas- not that Assad is actually much if any better in that respect, they just tend towards secret torture and executions rather than public.

[Drowsy Emperor]

But even with all this weaponry its not clear how things actually stand on the ground and just how much the Syrian army is capable of right now. Half a decade has passed, even the Wehrmacht was in tatters after that much time.

[Zoraptor]

They're getting significant manpower support from shia groups from Iraq and Iran (plus Hezbollah, though they've been there ages) which will help a lot, while theoretically ad hoc those are often better formations than regular Syrian Army. The big problem they've had is not direct lack of manpower but having it in small dribs and drabs trying to hold lots of land which allowed the rebels to hit and run almost at will and which made it very hard to make any meaningful attacks themselves since reserves and the effective formations were constantly being rushed around to respond to the latest attacks, plus some bad morale and relying on low quality conscripts fighting highly motivated (if often as lightly trained) jihadis. An effective airforce helps massively with the first problem, it makes it a lot more difficult to attack the dribs and drabs when your column of pickups can get taken out in full by a Hind, or seen and the target warned by a drone/ artillery support/ air strike support delivered; while conversely making it a lot easier for the government to concentrate their forces. The morale problem is helped a lot by success and new equipment, plus the obvious and apparently long term commitment from their allies.

 

On the ground the government is, broadly speaking, winning at the moment when they were losing two and a bit months ago, badly enough that they'd managed perhpas one significant victory all year. In contrast they've had two significant victories in the past two months- relieving Kweyres airbase and taking a big chunk of the south Aleppo countryside.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Zoraptor

[Volourn]

L0L People whine about how the West are often hypocrites but Russia is no different. How many wars is Pukin gonna get himself involved in? L0L

[BruceVC]

L0L People whine about how the West are often hypocrites but Russia is no different. How many wars is Pukin gonna get himself involved in? L0L

Volo I want to  pay you  a compliment. And its not just because you are openly supportive of the West like me but you have always been consistent in all your views

 

 

People sometimes forget that about you but I respect that 

 

And yes you right about Putins wars...Zora ...Drowsy why aren't you guys criticizing Putins belligerence ?

[Meshugger]

 

 

Please tell me even you are disconcerted with this.

Of course. Its the typical BVC non-answer but I lost interest in discussing it with him so I just let it drop.

 

Oh my....look at you. You play the standard " BCV never answers " , you are condescending and then rude

 

When I first read this I was annoyed by your rudeness and I was going to respond accordingly...but I went to the shop and my irritation has gone

 

Its my fault  because clearly you think I'm stupid and in the past I have gone along with your sarcastic comments and acted like I wasn't aware. So lets set the record straight, I'm not stupid so please don't assume this again and insult me because I will respond next time and there is no need for a debate like this to get personal 

 

I explained to you the facts about why its unlikely Turkey would be funding ISIS. You ignored this and insisted I should consider the photo evidence. The photo evidence if it was real do you not think your country who is actively involved in this conflict would have considered.....do you not think that the USA who has been involved in the ME  and has effective and reliable information from sources like Israel and Saudi Arabia would be aware if Turkey was the reason ISIS was able to sustain itself ?

 

So once again you make the assumption that  everyone is stupid ....except for the Russians

 

But I didn't feel like pointing the obvious out to you and trying to " win"  the argument so I thought we could wait a few days when this story will be confirmed....which is why I said lets wait and see

But even this wasn't good enough for you and you chose to insult me ....oh well 

 

Once this story is debunked I suppose an apology from you will be too much to ask?

 

 

So when an american is disagreeing with you it is personal, you're insulted and you have to demand an apology? Like an errand boy who has failed to live up to his delivery? and everyone else simply does not know any better? Oh Bruce, you're such a bigot, please update your algorithm.

 

If this forum is an euphemism of U.N., then you're Israel.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Please tell me even you are disconcerted with this.

Of course. Its the typical BVC non-answer but I lost interest in discussing it with him so I just let it drop.

 

Oh my....look at you. You play the standard " BCV never answers " , you are condescending and then rude

 

When I first read this I was annoyed by your rudeness and I was going to respond accordingly...but I went to the shop and my irritation has gone

 

Its my fault  because clearly you think I'm stupid and in the past I have gone along with your sarcastic comments and acted like I wasn't aware. So lets set the record straight, I'm not stupid so please don't assume this again and insult me because I will respond next time and there is no need for a debate like this to get personal 

 

I explained to you the facts about why its unlikely Turkey would be funding ISIS. You ignored this and insisted I should consider the photo evidence. The photo evidence if it was real do you not think your country who is actively involved in this conflict would have considered.....do you not think that the USA who has been involved in the ME  and has effective and reliable information from sources like Israel and Saudi Arabia would be aware if Turkey was the reason ISIS was able to sustain itself ?

 

So once again you make the assumption that  everyone is stupid ....except for the Russians

 

But I didn't feel like pointing the obvious out to you and trying to " win"  the argument so I thought we could wait a few days when this story will be confirmed....which is why I said lets wait and see

But even this wasn't good enough for you and you chose to insult me ....oh well 

 

Once this story is debunked I suppose an apology from you will be too much to ask?

 

 

So when an american is disagreeing with you it is personal, you're insulted and you have to demand an apology? Like an errand boy who has failed to live up to his delivery? and everyone else simply does not know any better? Oh Bruce, you're such a bigot, please update your algorithm.

 

If this forum is an euphemism of U.N., then you're Israel.

 

 

 

No .....I see how that sounded...but yes now that I am thinking about it all the people are outside the USA, maybe the Americans are just nicer people?

 

But therse nothing wrong with apologizing, you should learn how to do it. It shows maturity 

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

 

Please tell me even you are disconcerted with this.

Of course. Its the typical BVC non-answer but I lost interest in discussing it with him so I just let it drop.

 

Oh my....look at you. You play the standard " BCV never answers " , you are condescending and then rude

 

When I first read this I was annoyed by your rudeness and I was going to respond accordingly...but I went to the shop and my irritation has gone

 

Its my fault  because clearly you think I'm stupid and in the past I have gone along with your sarcastic comments and acted like I wasn't aware. So lets set the record straight, I'm not stupid so please don't assume this again and insult me because I will respond next time and there is no need for a debate like this to get personal 

 

I explained to you the facts about why its unlikely Turkey would be funding ISIS. You ignored this and insisted I should consider the photo evidence. The photo evidence if it was real do you not think your country who is actively involved in this conflict would have considered.....do you not think that the USA who has been involved in the ME  and has effective and reliable information from sources like Israel and Saudi Arabia would be aware if Turkey was the reason ISIS was able to sustain itself ?

 

So once again you make the assumption that  everyone is stupid ....except for the Russians

 

But I didn't feel like pointing the obvious out to you and trying to " win"  the argument so I thought we could wait a few days when this story will be confirmed....which is why I said lets wait and see

But even this wasn't good enough for you and you chose to insult me ....oh well 

 

Once this story is debunked I suppose an apology from you will be too much to ask?

 

 

So when an american is disagreeing with you it is personal, you're insulted and you have to demand an apology? Like an errand boy who has failed to live up to his delivery? and everyone else simply does not know any better? Oh Bruce, you're such a bigot, please update your algorithm.

 

If this forum is an euphemism of U.N., then you're Israel.

 

 

No .....I see how that sounded...but yes now that I am thinking about it all the people are outside the USA, maybe the Americans are just nicer people?

 

But therse nothing wrong with apologizing, you should learn how to do it. It shows maturity 

 

 

Nah, apologising because you care about the other person's wellbeing is a good thing. Being unable to handle sardonic sarcasm and demanding an apology of such is the sign of a weak character who has to resort to the other showing submission to satisfy ones ego. One has to have the wisdom and maturity to tell the two apart, and a halfwit like you Bruce, have neither.

 

Update your autoexec.bat.

[Darkpriest]

Poor Bruce i like his naive full bright color world view. Do not update too much plz!

[Meshugger]

Okay, okay. Maybe not a halfwit then, but definately immature.

[Lychnidos]

Bruce is a "little" to naive to continue the suspension of disbelief.

[BruceVC]

Poor Bruce i like his naive full bright color world view. Do not update too much plz!

I have no idea what he means by updating so I can't imagine I'll be changing too much 

[FlintlockJazz]

Sorry been away, lack of access and stuff.  Well, it looks like the UK is gonna bomb Syria too, because apparently two superpowers plus assorted EU countries isn't enough, we got to get in on the action too.  This is gonna escalate, people will realise they need to send soldiers on the ground to actually finish anything, Russia and the US working at cross-purposes will cause those soldiers to end up shooting each other, and World War 3 will start.  Just like bloody World War 1 (small conflict between two nations that dragged in all their allies until everyone was killing everyone).

[HoonDing]

WWIII beats paying off a mortgage for 20+ years.

[Hurlshort]

The big difference being that WWI happened before the Nuclear Age.

[213374U]

I wish I lived in Switzerland, now.

[Darkpriest]

i guess this is what some Americans think?

 

http://theweek.com/articles/591808/turkey-now-huge-liability-nato--america

 

http://www.valuewalk.com/2015/12/war-is-coming-russia-arms-its-jets-in-syria/

Edited December 3, 2015 by Darkpriest

[BruceVC]

Sorry been away, lack of access and stuff.  Well, it looks like the UK is gonna bomb Syria too, because apparently two superpowers plus assorted EU countries isn't enough, we got to get in on the action too.  This is gonna escalate, people will realise they need to send soldiers on the ground to actually finish anything, Russia and the US working at cross-purposes will cause those soldiers to end up shooting each other, and World War 3 will start.  Just like bloody World War 1 (small conflict between two nations that dragged in all their allies until everyone was killing everyone).

No my friend....that is  a really negative outlook

Its good that the UK has finally got the votes in parliament to get involved 

 

But yes someone has to eventually send in ground troops ....but I am not sure who is prepared to do this as there will  be casualties.  I feel the Russians are the best country to do this as they seem the most angry?

[Darkpriest]

Nah, Russians won't send the troops in. they will deploy however some long range artilery to support advances of Syrian Army and its allies.

 

Russians can fight asymetrical war. They do not really care about some collateral damage. their public opinion will most likely suck it up, especially after what Turkey did.