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Turkey shoots down russian jet


Zoraptor

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Russian Su-24 shot down by F16s (per Turkey) or ground fire (per Russia). Apparent crash site is in Syria, one pilot claimed captured by Turkman (rebel) group in Syria, reports (unconfirmed) of fighting near Turkish border between Russian quick response force and well, hopefully rebels else it's Turkish ground forces. Turkish claims are that it violated their airspace, Russia denies it. Should be noted that Turkey has unilaterally extended its airspace 5 km into Syria, so both may be telling the truth there, facpov.

 

If it was shot down in a self declared air space extension article 5 NATO protection will not apply.

Edited by Zoraptor
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Turkey (ok, maybe not Turkey, but the Erdogan government), being a supporter of Isis, I wonder if France is going to ask Turkey to raise arms against them?... Probably just as unlikely as Saudi Arabia clamping down on the money flow.

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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I think I still got some factor 50 from my days in South Australia. Probably way past its best by date :p

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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;Yes this is a problem, well done Zora finally some worthwhile anti-Western news. Strange how I can't recall you actually ever making a post yet this news was important enough to you to " let us know due to the gravitas  " 

 

I doubt Russia will attack Turkey in anyway...this was a tragedy and Russia will have to absorb it as the West has had to do many times 
 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Other countries should do the same whenever a Mig skirts their airspace.

We need to be cautious. Russia is a member of the ISIS coalition and the only reason this happened was because they are indeed heavily invested in there bombing campaign

 

We must recognize the Russian contribution and accept this accident, I am hoping Russia will send ground troops into the ISIS  territories so we can finally end this godforsaken war that exists in this benighted  land where Western troops  are not liked yet are expected to intervene 

 

I dont want the West to lose anymore troops but the Russians are angry and they are new to the overall conflict so it makes sense they send the required infantry 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Other countries should do the same whenever a Mig skirts their airspace.

We need to be cautious. Russia is a member of the ISIS coalition and the only reason this happened was because they are indeed heavily invested in there bombing campaign

 

We must recognize the Russian contribution and accept this accident, I am hoping Russia will send ground troops into the ISIS  territories so we can finally end this godforsaken war that exists in this benighted  land where Western troops  are not liked yet are expected to intervene 

 

I dont want the West to lose anymore troops but the Russians are angry and they are new to the overall conflict so it makes sense they send the required infantry 

 

 

If Russia sent there its own troops, then there is high change that Syria and Iraq then become part of Russian Federation. And I am not sure if that is what anybody even Russians want.

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Seems likely one pilot is dead, though it's not fully confirmed there certainly are pictures floating around showing a dead uniformed pilot. That will make things particularly unpleasant. Ironically Lavrov is meant to be visiting Ankara tomorrow, seems rather unlikely that that meeting will take place now. Or at least not in the manner originally intended.

 

Some interesting timing going on, what with Hollande trying to drum up a solid coalition and Jabhat al Nusra and Ahrar ash Sham (Turkey's main proxy) attacking the Kurds and SDF (~FSA, though meant to be fighting ISIS specifically) in Afrin.

 

The jet supposedly crashed here if Al Jazeera is to be believed. Doesn't really say much since either way it's very close (few hundred meters) to the Turkish border, but since both the pilots (especially, since they'd eject close to initial impact) and plane came down in Syria it seems likely they were in Syrian airspace at the time.

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Thread theme:

 

"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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Other countries should do the same whenever a Mig skirts their airspace.

We need to be cautious. Russia is a member of the ISIS coalition and the only reason this happened was because they are indeed heavily invested in there bombing campaign

 

We must recognize the Russian contribution and accept this accident, I am hoping Russia will send ground troops into the ISIS  territories so we can finally end this godforsaken war that exists in this benighted  land where Western troops  are not liked yet are expected to intervene 

 

I dont want the West to lose anymore troops but the Russians are angry and they are new to the overall conflict so it makes sense they send the required infantry 

 

 

If Russia sent there its own troops, then there is high change that Syria and Iraq then become part of Russian Federation. And I am not sure if that is what anybody even Russians want.

 

The Russians are not very good at dealing with Muslims ....they wouldnt want  to absorb Iraq or Syria....lets be honest both these countries are basically dysfunctional. Who would want to try to fix either country....maybe the Iranians ?

Edited by BruceVC

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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I don't think Russia will respond, but the act definitely deserves a response. Turkey should start paying a price for supporting ISIS. 

И погибе Српски кнез Лазаре,
И његова сва изгибе војска, 
Седамдесет и седам иљада;
Све је свето и честито било
И миломе Богу приступачно.

 

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Other countries should do the same whenever a Mig skirts their airspace.

We need to be cautious. Russia is a member of the ISIS coalition and the only reason this happened was because they are indeed heavily invested in there bombing campaign

 

We must recognize the Russian contribution and accept this accident, I am hoping Russia will send ground troops into the ISIS  territories so we can finally end this godforsaken war that exists in this benighted  land where Western troops  are not liked yet are expected to intervene 

 

I dont want the West to lose anymore troops but the Russians are angry and they are new to the overall conflict so it makes sense they send the required infantry 

 

 

If Russia sent there its own troops, then there is high change that Syria and Iraq then become part of Russian Federation. And I am not sure if that is what anybody even Russians want.

 

 

1. Russia isn't going to be sending ground troops. Their goal is to force a peace process and keep Assad in power, not to retake the country for him. 

 

2. Syria and Iraq becoming part of RF? What? How does that work?

Edited by Drowsy Emperor

И погибе Српски кнез Лазаре,
И његова сва изгибе војска, 
Седамдесет и седам иљада;
Све је свето и честито било
И миломе Богу приступачно.

 

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The jet supposedly crashed here if Al Jazeera is to be believed. Doesn't really say much since either way it's very close (few hundred meters) to the Turkish border, but since both the pilots (especially, since they'd eject close to initial impact) and plane came down in Syria it seems likely they were in Syrian airspace at the time.

Which is effectively a declaration of war by Turkey on Russia, attacking outside Turkey. They would have a hard to time calling on Nato for help should Russia decide to retaliate in kind (Turkey being the aggressor really can hardly claim "self defence").

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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If the Russians nuked Turkey tomorrow, no one in NATO would respond.

 

Not all NATO members are equally critical to the alliance.

 

Moot point though, since there is no real physical arena in which Turkey and Russia could fight a real war. I suppose their navies could clash but neither country can really defeat the other in a worthwhile manner, and the gains of such a victory are at best meager. 

Edited by Drowsy Emperor

И погибе Српски кнез Лазаре,
И његова сва изгибе војска, 
Седамдесет и седам иљада;
Све је свето и честито било
И миломе Богу приступачно.

 

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If Turkey attacked a Russian airplane outside its (=NATO) borders it is considered an act of aggression and thus, NATO will do **** as it is a defence alliance (most of the time).

Edited by Meshugger

"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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Good thing old Kemal Ataturk can't see what Erdogan is turning his legacy into. Staying Secular was one of his goals.

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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Ask the people in Washington why Erdogan was handed power instead of the secular army officers. I'm sure they could give a plausible reason.

 

I think Erdogan presumes Russia is too stretched out by this war and the problems in eastern Ukraine to formulate a strong response, so they're using the opportunity for a sucker punch.

 

The standard protocol for this sort of thing is for domestic jets to tag and escort the offending airplane outside of their airspace. Its "appropriate" to shoot it down if its unmanned, but killing a pilot is a definite step further than either situation and a slap to the face. 

 

An appropriate response if one wanted to save face would probably be to cruise missile a Turkish army outpost on the border with Syria and claim it as an accident. A few Turkish soldiers dead and the situation would be more or less rectified. To remind Turkey that there's a price for playing in the big boys club.

 

Every other option is essentially deescalation. 

Edited by Drowsy Emperor

И погибе Српски кнез Лазаре,
И његова сва изгибе војска, 
Седамдесет и седам иљада;
Све је свето и честито било
И миломе Богу приступачно.

 

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I don't think Russia will respond, but the act definitely deserves a response. Turkey should start paying a price for supporting ISIS. 

I agree it really seems like a stupid thing for Turkey to do to shoot down a Russian plane even if they were on Russian airspace...I doubt they would do this to an American plane? But it doesn't require a response, the Russians are saying they have proof it wasn't in Turkey airspace so lets just wait and see 

 

But why anyone thinks Russia would want to go to war with Turkey boggles the mind 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Turkey was just banking on ISIS crushing the Kurds completely after which they could march in and annex all of North Syria under the guise of protecting their borders.

 

Well, it didn't work out and now they're a bit butthurt.

The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.

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I wouldn't be surprised if more than a few Turkish army trainers/covert units and such got wiped out in Syria in the Russian bombing campaign. Its common knowledge they're helping anti-assad forces, it wouldn't be a stretch for them to have people on the ground inside Syria.

 

Regardless, an alternate response, that would circumvent a nation wide conflict,  would be to place all blame on Erdogan and punish him somehow. He's nearing his expiration date anyway.

И погибе Српски кнез Лазаре,
И његова сва изгибе војска, 
Седамдесет и седам иљада;
Све је свето и честито било
И миломе Богу приступачно.

 

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