Yay! Chris Avellone working on Divinity OS 2

[gkathellar]

yeah, I'm still sore about Kreia (I consider KOTOR2 to be the worst game Obsidian ever made)

Have you played TSLRCM? Because if you've played TSLRCM and you still don't like Kreia, then we gonna fight.

[Madscientist]

 

I'm probably in the minority here, but here's my opinion. When it comes to writing characters, Chris Avellone is one of those writers who works best when kept on a leash, or at least working in tandem with another writer (like Colin McComb in Planescape Torment or George Ziets in Neverwinter Nights 2). You take him off that leash and he'll start writing characters that are annoying, unsufferable and unbearable mouthpiece that exist only to be proven right (yeah, I'm still sore about Kreia (I consider KOTOR2 to be the worst game Obsidian ever made) and Ulysses (which hurt a lot since I love Fallout New Vegas)).

 

In short, Chris Avellone can write great characters (Planescape Torment proved that), but he needs someone to rein him in.

 

You really hurt me.

 

I play KotoR2 at the moment and I believe that Kreia is the best char in gaming history.

 

Chris is great in playing with expectations and turning everything upside down.

SW is about the good jedi vs the bad sith and the good ones always win in the end. Thats what you expect.

To hell with that. Both jedi and sith are mages who are drunk with power and both follow extreme ideals that will finally fail.

The world is gray and the fight between different fanatics causes nothing but suffering.

Best get rid of all of them.

 

Thats why I love chris.

And by the way, Chris will not be the only writer at Larian. They have 7 already (8 with him).

[gkathellar]

And by the way, Chris will not be the only writer at Larian. They have 7 already (8 with him).

I believe they've said specifically that he'll be writing one of the origin stories.

 

 

I play KotoR2 at the moment and I believe that Kreia is the best char in gaming history.

 

The scene towards the end, where you return to the Jedi Council? Where Kreia stops to sit on the edge of the dead fountain, and for the first time in the game seems truly old?* I just sat there and cried.

 

*This scene may or may not be exclusive to TSLRCM.

[POLE7645]

 

yeah, I'm still sore about Kreia (I consider KOTOR2 to be the worst game Obsidian ever made)

Have you played TSLRCM? Because if you've played TSLRCM and you still don't like Kreia, then we gonna fight.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm probably in the minority here, but here's my opinion. When it comes to writing characters, Chris Avellone is one of those writers who works best when kept on a leash, or at least working in tandem with another writer (like Colin McComb in Planescape Torment or George Ziets in Neverwinter Nights 2). You take him off that leash and he'll start writing characters that are annoying, unsufferable and unbearable mouthpiece that exist only to be proven right (yeah, I'm still sore about Kreia (I consider KOTOR2 to be the worst game Obsidian ever made) and Ulysses (which hurt a lot since I love Fallout New Vegas)).

 

In short, Chris Avellone can write great characters (Planescape Torment proved that), but he needs someone to rein him in.

 

You really hurt me.

 

I play KotoR2 at the moment and I believe that Kreia is the best char in gaming history.

 

Chris is great in playing with expectations and turning everything upside down.

SW is about the good jedi vs the bad sith and the good ones always win in the end. Thats what you expect.

To hell with that. Both jedi and sith are mages who are drunk with power and both follow extreme ideals that will finally fail.

The world is gray and the fight between different fanatics causes nothing but suffering.

Best get rid of all of them.

 

Thats why I love chris.

And by the way, Chris will not be the only writer at Larian. They have 7 already (8 with him).

 

 

First, I hate Kreia because she's pretty much the Brian Griffin of Star Wars: a character that has no characteristic except being proven right, and they're only right because the plot requires them to rather than an actual reason. She's the character that I hate the most in the entire Star Wars universe because unlike say Jar Jar Binks, I'm supposed to take what she says seriously (even after she's revealed as the lord of Betrayal, Avelonne still uses her as a mouth piece). She's basically a Villain Sue (and I know that Chris Avelonne can write better and more compelling villains).

 

Hell, KOTOR1, despite featuring the same good vs. evil fight explored the flaws of the Jedi philosophy better without resorting to tearing the universe apart. KOTOR2 is simply a badly written, pretentious mess. You can deconstruct aspects of established universes while still respecting the original universe (Neverwinter Nights 2 and Mask of the Betrayer did this wonderfully, especially if you play them back-to-back) unlike KOTOR2 which is basically one big middle finger from Chris Avelonne to anyone who love Star Wars.

 

I'll admit I haven't played with the recovered content. But unless there's an option to tell off Kreia (or at least tell her that she's full of ****), I'm not interested. Even Ulysses (which I found incredibly annoying for the same reasons) at least had that option.

 

Edit: I'm actually interested in his origin story. In my opinion, lore and origin stories are what Avelonne does best.

Edited September 26, 2015 by POLE7645

[Madscientist]

@gkathellar: I Think this scene was in the original version. I played it once without mods. Now I start again with the mods that restore missing content and the planet.

 

He will write the background of a character. Larian games are good in world exploration and interactivity, but they are not so good in story and characters. I hope Chris will give them some useful input.

 

@POLE7645: You don´t get it. Chis is good because he looks at an universe (DnD, SW, . . .) and then he deconstructs it to show us that the whole concept is flawed.

Do you want to hear the same story a million times again or do you want some new ideas?

 

I am really looking forward to Torment:Tides of Numenera. I hope it is even better than PST because they are free from the DnD restrictions (like good/evil and law/chaos alignment or class system, . . .) and they work together with the man who created this univers.

[POLE7645]

@gkathellar: I Think this scene was in the original version. I played it once without mods. Now I start again with the mods that restore missing content and the planet.

 

He will write the background of a character. Larian games are good in world exploration and interactivity, but they are not so good in story and characters. I hope Chris will give them some useful input.

 

@POLE7645: You don´t get it. Chis is good because he looks at an universe (DnD, SW, . . .) and then he deconstructs it to show us that the whole concept is flawed.

Do you want to hear the same story a million times again or do you want some new ideas?

 

I am really looking forward to Torment:Tides of Numenera. I hope it is even better than PST because they are free from the DnD restrictions (like good/evil and law/chaos alignment or class system, . . .) and they work together with the man who created this univers.

 

And that's exactly why I think Torment: Tines of Numenera will be great. Chris is working in tandem with the creator of the universe, making sure that his vision works with the established universe.

 

And don't tell me I don't get it. I get it. A child would get it. KOTOR2 is a deconstruction, but it's a bitter, mean spirited and self-rightous deconstruction that screams "Look at how better I am!". Hell, even Avelonne himself admitted that the end product ended up more bitter than he intended (although I'm still not sure how sincere he was). I took the Neverwinter Nights 2 example because it gave both an example of a typical campaign and one that deconstruct the universe, showing it's flaws while still paying respect to the original.

 

And I'll tell you this. Even in an universe with "simple" morality, good fresh stories can come out of it (the recent series Star Wars: Rebels is a good example. The whole thing is morally grey without actively insulting the Star Wars universe and shows flaws on both sides). Even if the premise of the story is simple (and honestly most stories have simple premises) you can still make it interesting.

 

I don't know if Torment will be better than Planescape Torment (I liked how they played with the concept of alignments). The old one is still a masterpiece of storytelling with great characters (and best of all, you're allowed to play a good character without being treated like an idiot for it) and a fascinating universe. It's going to be hard to top, but the tides system is really interesting and I hope it'll be well implemented (kinda reminds me of an updated version of the virtue system from Ultima IV).

Edited September 26, 2015 by POLE7645

[gkathellar]

First, I hate Kreia because she's pretty much the Brian Griffin of Star Wars: a character that has no characteristic except being proven right, and they're only right because the plot requires them to rather than an actual reason. She's the character that I hate the most in the entire Star Wars universe because unlike say Jar Jar Binks, I'm supposed to take what she says seriously (even after she's revealed as the lord of Betrayal, Avelonne still uses her as a mouth piece). She's basically a Villain Sue (and I know that Chris Avelonne can write better and more compelling villains).

I disagree pretty strongly with this. The great thing about Kreia is that she's not right, but she does a great job of convincing you that she is.

 

If there's any other character in fiction who Kreia reminds me of, it's the Witch from Into The Woods (yes, I just brought musical theatre into this). On the one hand, the people in her world are generally either corrupt, or naive and blind to the world's corruption. But on the other hand, she offers no real alternative besides perhaps giving up one's principles and humanity altogether. Cynicism has a real value in its ability to sweep away the barriers of "common sense," and see the world's ugliness for what it actually is. But that's worthless if you just stand around in the rubble when you're done, and that's exactly what Kreia (and the Witch) do, and what they encourage those around them to do. Being unable to escape life's imperfections, they advocate smashing everything to pieces. But while a person may be free in the void that remains, they're free to do ... what?

 

If anyone is allowed to be right in KotOR2, I think it's the Exile, and I think that this is the Exile's principal narrative arc (at least if you take the light-side path). Kreia sees the Exile as a living emblem of freedom from an ugly universe due to their disconnection from the Force, but it's only when the Exile reaffirms their connection to others through the Force that they actually start to direct their own destiny. KotOR2 is, to me, the journey from a childishly simple worldview, through the adolescent disappointment masquerading as maturity that Kreia peddles, and into the pain (but joy and invigoration!) of adult independence. The game is really about the relationship between Kreia and the Exile, and about the Exile's growth into someone who surpasses her and throws her understanding of the universe into chaos.

 

Maybe this isn't as clear without the restored content, or maybe it's just my biases being projected onto the game. I can't say. But that's my 2cp about KotOR2.

 

unlike KOTOR2 which is basically one big middle finger from Chris Avelonne to anyone who love Star Wars.

I think, to be fair, that it's a middle finger to the EU in particular, rather than the six three movies.

 

Legend has it that Avellone prepared to do KotOR2 by consuming all of the EU (including the Christmas Special). That honestly sounds pretty traumatic. One could understand how a person might be embittered as a result.

[Madscientist]

My final words about this off topic thing:

 

1.) I disagree pretty strongly with this. The great thing about Kreia is that she's not right, but she does a great job of convincing you that she is.

 

Thats the important point. Kreia talks all the time. But why the hell do you listen to an old frustrated woman who is ranting all the time. In many things she is right about the jedi and the sith. But she fails to see that her own point of view is also extreme, fanatic and causes lots of suffering. The difference between her and most other chars (not only in this game) is, that she is very good in talking in a very convincing and manupulative way, even if her talk is complete nonsens.

 

2.) The only one who can judge if KotoR2 fits to SW is George Lucas. In an interview he said that he was sad because SW was a movie for children. (good hero vs evil empire and the good one wins). The sith (especially the emperor) was also strongly inspired by the nazis and Hitler, a person who was good in manipulating others by talking disgusting nonsense. And no, Kreia is not Hitler.

[Karkarov]

Yeah I kinda gotta side with Pole, Kreia was an annoying preachy know it all that spent most of the game talking down to you despite the fact that in many points of the game you bailed her out.  She even talks trash about Revan and Malak at multiple points, I figure because they had the balls to face the real sith while she hid in a hole and tried to talk people to death.  I wasn't shocked her disciples betrayed her, I sure didn't mind dropping her like a bad habit at the end.

[Valsuelm]

There's no game company on the face of the planet that Chris belongs at more than Larian.
 

I did not expect the stars to align, but they have. Best pure news I've read in gaming in many years.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Valsuelm

[Caerdon]

Good for Chris. He can keep delivering good games and Obsidian with Sawyer can keep delivering subpar games.

You still haven't worked that out of your system? Go hit a punching bag or something, there's no need for these tantrums.

[Tennisgolfboll]

 

 

OH SNAP

 

Also, I'm very pleased to see they hit the 1.65m stretch goal. Maybe people will stop asking for every RPG and its cousin to include a campaign creation toolset now the D:OS2 is finally going to provide dedicated editor support.

 

 

I... I really don't know how to feel about it.

 

If he works on the lore and writes way to integrate gameplay ideas into the story, it's awesome. But don't let him write characters (at least, not on his own).

I don't really get that. Character writing has always been what Avellone does best.

 

Well, that and just generally tearing existing properties into little pieces.

I'm probably in the minority here, but here's my opinion. When it comes to writing characters, Chris Avellone is one of those writers who works best when kept on a leash, or at least working in tandem with another writer (like Colin McComb in Planescape Torment or George Ziets in Neverwinter Nights 2). You take him off that leash and he'll start writing characters that are annoying, unsufferable and unbearable mouthpiece that exist only to be proven right (yeah, I'm still sore about Kreia (I consider KOTOR2 to be the worst game Obsidian ever made) and Ulysses (which hurt a lot since I love Fallout New Vegas)).

 

In short, Chris Avellone can write great characters (Planescape Torment proved that), but he needs someone to rein him in.

I agree. Kreia is possibly the worst character obsidian ever did.

[Madscientist]

 

 

You're tripping. Kreia is one of the best chars in games. So creative and out of the box.

 

 

I guess you mean outside the box. (= unusual)

out of the box = normal

 

I am from germany and I have a book about mistakes germans usually make in english. It called "The devil lies in the Detail".

 

But I agree with what you say.

[POLE7645]

 

First, I hate Kreia because she's pretty much the Brian Griffin of Star Wars: a character that has no characteristic except being proven right, and they're only right because the plot requires them to rather than an actual reason. She's the character that I hate the most in the entire Star Wars universe because unlike say Jar Jar Binks, I'm supposed to take what she says seriously (even after she's revealed as the lord of Betrayal, Avelonne still uses her as a mouth piece). She's basically a Villain Sue (and I know that Chris Avelonne can write better and more compelling villains).

I disagree pretty strongly with this. The great thing about Kreia is that she's not right, but she does a great job of convincing you that she is.

 

If there's any other character in fiction who Kreia reminds me of, it's the Witch from Into The Woods (yes, I just brought musical theatre into this). On the one hand, the people in her world are generally either corrupt, or naive and blind to the world's corruption. But on the other hand, she offers no real alternative besides perhaps giving up one's principles and humanity altogether. Cynicism has a real value in its ability to sweep away the barriers of "common sense," and see the world's ugliness for what it actually is. But that's worthless if you just stand around in the rubble when you're done, and that's exactly what Kreia (and the Witch) do, and what they encourage those around them to do. Being unable to escape life's imperfections, they advocate smashing everything to pieces. But while a person may be free in the void that remains, they're free to do ... what?

 

If anyone is allowed to be right in KotOR2, I think it's the Exile, and I think that this is the Exile's principal narrative arc (at least if you take the light-side path). Kreia sees the Exile as a living emblem of freedom from an ugly universe due to their disconnection from the Force, but it's only when the Exile reaffirms their connection to others through the Force that they actually start to direct their own destiny. KotOR2 is, to me, the journey from a childishly simple worldview, through the adolescent disappointment masquerading as maturity that Kreia peddles, and into the pain (but joy and invigoration!) of adult independence. The game is really about the relationship between Kreia and the Exile, and about the Exile's growth into someone who surpasses her and throws her understanding of the universe into chaos.

 

Maybe this isn't as clear without the restored content, or maybe it's just my biases being projected onto the game. I can't say. But that's my 2cp about KotOR2.

 

unlike KOTOR2 which is basically one big middle finger from Chris Avelonne to anyone who love Star Wars.

I think, to be fair, that it's a middle finger to the EU in particular, rather than the six three movies.

 

Legend has it that Avellone prepared to do KotOR2 by consuming all of the EU (including the Christmas Special). That honestly sounds pretty traumatic. One could understand how a person might be embittered as a result.

 

 

First, the EU does have some good points with great stories (the X-Wing series (both games and books), the Shadow of the Empire game, the Jedi Knight series). I'd add the lastest Clone Wars series (even if it had some crap in it), but it was released after KOTOR2, so it can't count. If you want good EU (that Chris Avelonne supposedly read), got fetch the many novels made (just avoid anything written by Karen Taviss and you'll be safe). And honestly, the Holiday Special is just too stupid to be traumatic (except for one scene that I won't describe for your sanity. And yes, I watched it in it's entirety. I regret nothing).

 

And, I'd like to ask you that question. If Kreia is supposed to be wrong, why does she succeed everything she does? Hell, even when you beat her, she still wins. She has the entire galaxy warped around her finger and even if you rebel, you end up accomplishing her goal. So, yeah. She's still a Villain Sue (since such a feat requires almost complete omniscience). Maybe it's stated that she fails with the restorated content, but with the vanilla game, they didn't made that clear (since she basically wins no matter your ending).

 

 

 

Good for Chris. He can keep delivering good games and Obsidian with Sawyer can keep delivering subpar games.

You still haven't worked that out of your system? Go hit a punching bag or something, there's no need for these tantrums.

 

 

There's a topic so there's need.

Find an new hobby, trolling user about writing on topic is passe.

 

I agree. Kreia is possibly the worst character obsidian ever did.

 

You're tripping. Kreia is one of the best chars in games. So creative and out of the box.

 

 

Again, I still don't understand what makes Kreia creative or interesting. She's basically Brian Griffin (a character I hate with a passion) in the Star Wars universe.

[Cantousent]

Looks cool. I haven't played D:OS yet, so I don't have a real opinion about Avellone working on D:OS2. I'll have to take a look into it.

 

EDIT: Oh, and I think this topic is probably best in CnC rather than PoE general.

[Madscientist]

I think I understand the problem now.

It is about SW fans vs. RPG fans.

 

The center of the SW universe are 6 epic movies and I liked to watch all of them.

SW is a simple story about good vs evil.

It was never designed as base for complex RPG where there is not only black and white, but also lots of gray in between.

 

As RPG player, I prefer complex stories (like the ones chris makes) over simple ones.

 

Let me put it that way: KotoR2 is a game that may not fit well to the SW universe. But I consider it as one of the best RPGs ever and the fact that it is set in the SW universe does not matter much to me.

[Volourn]

"If he works on the lore and writes way to integrate gameplay ideas into the story, it's awesome. But don't let him write characters (at least, not on his own)."

 

His characters are awesome.  The fact that Obsidian butchered his PE characters explains why PE npcs are mostly bland wannabes.

 

Avellone > All other Obsidian writers.

 

  DOS1's main weaknesses was its poor writing. With his addition it can only be improved. And, Obsidian's next game's writing can only be worse.

 

 

 

"So creative and out of the box."

 

How so? She's justa  rip off of  Avellone's better character. kreia is n above average character. Which makes her better than 99% of characters in PE...

Edited September 27, 2015 by Volourn

[Zoraptor]

I think I understand the problem now.

It is about SW fans vs. RPG fans.

 

It's not really between SW fans and RPG fans, though most of the rest is right. The base argument at the heart of K2 and why some people dislike the story was one of the more divisive arguments in the EU- the old (Legends) EU- about whether the world of SW really was just black and white or whether there were shades of gray; between those with a mature, nuanced, view of the world and those rooted in a philosophy suitable for five year olds dictated by the whims of, well, George Lucas. It's a fairly divisive argument in real life too since it tends to mirror the moral absolutist vs moral relativist division.

 

Fundamentally the problem is that Lucas mandated SW is boring. Good vs evil is unimaginative and limiting, and George being George you had some weird stuff being defined as wrong- Jedi could have as much sex as they liked, so long as they didn't care for the person they were boffing, for example, or it being OK to kill thousands of people so long as you didn't get emotional about it and they were bad; the sort of stuff people parody The Sword of Truth/ Terry Goodkind for (deservedly mind you) unremittingly. The canon vision of jedi actually has them as being outright psychopaths*. Some authors noticed that and ran with it, having characters point that out, and some fans hated that happening because George said Jedi were good therefore they were good and no questions could be asked. As it stands, most of the really quality writing present in the old EU ran with that idea.

 

On Kreia and K2 in particular that influence is absolutely clear. Specifically, Kreia has large philosophical and practical similarities to Vergere and some of the questioning of the Jedi philosophy by those such as Hyphen Man (meh, Kai-zez-ell or whatever) was parallel to some of the questioning from other EU. And vice versa, the retconning of Vergere to be outright Sith seems to be mirroring Kreia rather than the other way around.

 

The funny thing is, I can understand people not liking Kreia and what she says, but not thinking she's a crap character. You don't have to believe her, you don't have to agree and she isn't proved right, at any point. What she does do is challenge the status quo and beliefs, and some people just hate that especially if it's done well.

 

*and don't get me started on The Force. The canonical vision of that has everyone being outright slaves to a supernatural force that doesn't give an asterisk, sticking a fork through its eye is a moral imperative

[Volourn]

"Fundamentally the problem is that Lucas mandated SW is boring."

 

Boring to who? Our personal opinions are irrelevant.

[the_dog_days]

 

Fundamentally the problem is that Lucas mandated SW is boring. Good vs evil is unimaginative and limiting, and George being George you had some weird stuff being defined as wrong- Jedi could have as much sex as they liked, so long as they didn't care for the person they were boffing, for example, or it being OK to kill thousands of people so long as you didn't get emotional about it and they were bad; the sort of stuff people parody The Sword of Truth/ Terry Goodkind for (deservedly mind you) unremittingly. The canon vision of jedi actually has them as being outright psychopaths*. Some authors noticed that and ran with it, having characters point that out, and some fans hated that happening because George said Jedi were good therefore they were good and no questions could be asked. As it stands, most of the really quality writing present in the old EU ran with that idea.

 

I'm not even a fan of Star Wars or George Lucas, but if good versus evil is so boring than how does one explain why there have always been stories using that same theme in every human society, all over the world throughout the entire history of the human race (for as long as we've been sapient, anyway)?

 

Just because an idea has been explored doesn't suddenly make it worthless. Certain basic themes resonate with people regardless of how many times they may have seen the same theme.

[Darkpriest]

OH SNAP

 

Also, I'm very pleased to see they hit the 1.65m stretch goal. Maybe people will stop asking for every RPG and its cousin to include a campaign creation toolset now the D:OS2 is finally going to provide dedicated editor support.

 

I... I really don't know how to feel about it.

 

If he works on the lore and writes way to integrate gameplay ideas into the story, it's awesome. But don't let him write characters (at least, not on his own).

 

I don't really get that. Character writing has always been what Avellone does best.

 

Well, that and just generally tearing existing properties into little pieces.

 

personally i am waiting for the 2mln stretch goal...

[Zoraptor]

"Boring to who? Our personal opinions are irrelevant."

 

No.
 
Or to be more verbose about it, I'll remember that next time you tell anyone that NWN is the best gmae of all time, Volo.
 

I'm not even a fan of Star Wars or George Lucas, but if good versus evil is so boring than how does one explain why there have always been stories using that same theme in every human society, all over the world throughout the entire history of the human race (for as long as we've been sapient, anyway)?

Just because an idea has been explored doesn't suddenly make it worthless. Certain basic themes resonate with people regardless of how many times they may have seen the same theme.

 
The idea is that you can only do something simple like Good vs Evil for a set amount of time. So it's a fine premise for the movies, all of which I enjoyed to a greater or lesser extent, because a SW movie is what a SW movie is; SFX pr0n with a variable quality supporting story that is not Shakespeare or Tolstoy and isn't intended to be. You're not going to a movie to do much more than be entertained for an hour and a half, it's rare for any movie to do a good job of being thought provoking even when they aim to do that.

 

Once you get into the Expanded Universe though that approach is severely limiting because you go from all six movies which add up to maybe 12 hours of entertainment, total, to a game like KOTOR/2 either of which is multiple times longer, by itself, than all the movies put together. There are, simply put, different requirements for different media, you can get away with a very simplistic approach in movies because it is a very compressed acute length with little time for reflection or analysis or nuance; in contrast a book or a video game takes a lot longer, is usually consumed over an extended period of days to weeks and requires more direct insight into the motivations and thoughts of those involved. Lucas wanted to have his cake and eat it too by both having an EU and remaining true to the very limited vision of his movies.

 

There was thousands of hours worth of EU stuff and pretty much the only bits of it with intrinsic worth were the ones that went off reservation wrt Lucas's good/ evil dichotomy (not so far as to contradict it directly though) and those that wrote around it. Albeit it doesn't help that a lot of the EU is crap anyway.

 

There's a reason why all the simplistic written stories tend to be fairy tales aimed at kids while most hit movies are about as simplistic as those fairy stories. The issue is with Lucas's stipulations that everything be as simplistic as the movies' approach.

[Elerond]

"Boring to who? Our personal opinions are irrelevant."

 

No.

 

Or to be more verbose about it, I'll remember that next time you tell anyone that NWN is the best gmae of all time, Volo.

 

Don't you know that Volo's opinions aren't just facts they are absolute truths about things, you just can't dispute them, because there is nothing to dispute  

[Nonek]

Personally I like Kreia for a few reasons:

 

One, she's not the usual squeeing idiot spewing jokes every few seconds trying deperately to be liked, she has pride, gravitas and is unashamedly opinionated. A woman of strength and character, rather than a giggling girl child. Maturity in an RPG is extremely rare and welcome, though of course no one will champion the inclusion of the aged as it is not fashionable.

 

Two: She is for all of her terrifying strength and determination realistically flawed: She is blatantly speciesist, lacks almost any kind of empathy despite (or maybe because of) her psychic knowledge of people, is far too sure of her own abilities and manipulations, is immoral in many ways when her goals are met by obstacles she cannot overcome, and can be unnecessarily cruel which is counterproductive to her manipulations.

 

Three: She has experienced life, with and without the Force, this is what differentiates and empowers her from the usual Jedi or Sith whom are for all of their justifications addicts, whom have never known what it is to live life without their drug, their binary philosophy or the comfort of their group and its brotherhood.

 

Four: She tries to understand her enemy, and in knowing them is able to outmaneuvre or overcome them, for instance using Nihlus addiction to destroy him or Sion's mental frailty to bend him to her will. Studying the enemy is extremely rare in an RPG, TSL and Alpha Protocol are two of the few games that do so. Ultimately she uses this technique to turn the Force against itself, one can imagine that Kreia would be a fantastic practicioner of Judo.

 

Five: In knowing and serving both sides of the Force, and more importantly being without it, she has come to the logical conclusion that this binary tyranny pitting one philosophical side of the same religion against each other for no reason whatsoever must be ended. A brave and radical decision that she alone pursues, asking for neither aid nor reward, she pursues a selfless task because she believes that it is the right thing to do, rather than because of the rewards she harvests. She is an idealist.

 

Six: She spurns violence, in her own words it is better to open anothers eyes to ones cause rather than close them forever. Massively refreshing, especially in a genre (and admittedly) a game that relies on racking up massive amounts of death and victories to harvest experience and items.

 

A masterfully written original character, that really builds on the fertile acorn that Ravel was, sprouting into a thriving black barbed mighty Oak. In my opinion anyway.

[Volourn]

"No.
 
Or to be more verbose about it, I'll remember that next time you tell anyone that NWN is the best gmae of all time, Volo"

 

What are you whining about? The logic you are using doesn't make any sense.

 

NWN was successful in every way that mattered.

 

a) It sold a bunch.

 

b) It was popular (no, Obsidian and Codex butthurt don't count).

 

c) And, the most important one is I liked it.

 

 

I am not even a big fan of SW but your 'it is boring' in the context that you were writing in was dumba s you were stating that it was boring and unsuccessful; yet they way the OS was done wasn't boring to people that mattered or esle it never would have lasted as long as it did.   But, hey keep crying.

 

It won't chaneg the fact that NWN = BEST GAME EVER.

 

As opposed to Neverwinter which is garbage. L0L

\

 

\ P.S. Kreia nonsense: That's full of crap. Everything you wrote about Kreia is nonsense. She is not a mature woman 9not coutning the fact her ugly oldness).  Being  force = evil is not mature. It's lame and simpleminded. And, she LOVES violence. She enjoys drinking the blood of people. EVIL. She doesn't udnerstand the enmy. She  just speaks pscyhobabble and puts her feelings upon others therefore epic fail.
 

Edited September 28, 2015 by Volourn