Any advice on melee rogue DPS on POTD?

[luzarius]

I tried playing a melee rogue, I'd wait until enemies were engaged with my tank, then I'd have the rogue go and flank.  The problem is the NPC's will often just turn around and take the rogue down in a few hits.

 

Am I missing something here?   Even with consecrated ground, the rogue seems a bit too flimsy.

 

I realize I can make the rogue do ranged DPS, but I'd rather play a Ranger in that case so I can get the extra off tank bear companion.

Edited May 24, 2015 by luzarius

[Silent Winter]

^What are your stats? Armour? Weapons? Abilities?

[Idleray]

1. Enemies will target the enemy with lowest DR. (but that's not a reason to make your rogue wear heavier armor)

2. Dead enemies can't fight back.

 

 

Solution: Make your rogue so deadly that any enemy he touches dies before it can fight back.

 

 

How: Focus all of your damage capacity on one enemy at a time. Max Rogue Might and Dex. Equip with swingy weapons like Sabres/Axes. Throw one disable on Rogue target like blind to keep it from damage your rogue and also provide Sneak Attacks. Be ready to use Escape/Shadowing Beyond on Rogue. In situations where you can block passage-ways just use ranged and don't worry about getting your rogue in.

[Drath]

I tried playing a melee rogue, I'd wait until enemies were engaged with my tank, then I'd have the rogue go and flank.  The problem is the NPC's will often just turn around and take the rogue down in a few hits.

Am I missing something here?   Even with consecrated ground, the rogue seems a bit too flimsy.

 

Rogues ARE flimsy! At least that's been my experience with them as well. My main is a dual wielding Rogue so I build/plan the rest of my party around him as he does the most damage in the party by far, even if not necessarily min-maxed in terms of race/stats (Wood Elf, Mig17 Con10 Dex18 Per12 Int12 Res9).

 

For me, disabling afflictions are the best. That means using Eder's Knockdown or Itumaak's Takedown (Sagani's animal companion) to inflict Prone. Assuming you have both, you're up to at least 4 of those per encounter and should work if the opponent's Fort isn't too high. You can also get Aloth to supply Prone by using Slicken but unless you're at L9, it won't be on a per encounter basis. Grieving Mother can also supply Prone using Mind Wave but the duration is rather short and requires her to be properly place to get the cone to hit the intended target(s).

 

Paralysis is probably the best disabling affliction you can get fairly early with Grieving Mother's Mental Binding (fast cast for a reasonable 15 Focus), which is incidentally also one of her best powers. It tends to work vast majority of the time as well (or at least has a better success rate than Knockdown/Takedown) because a lot of enemies, including your typical melee grunt, have lower Will saves than Fort Saves. Failing that Grieving Mother's Silent Scream (slow to cast) for Stun has its merits as well for AoE damage. You can further boost the duration by giving her items with Int, like Kana's Turban or Rundl's Finery. In 1.05 onwards, her Perception and Intelligence are swapped so it should be a non-issue anyway. Most of the time, I find that a graze provides enough time for the Rogue to safely finish off an injured opponent and a hit/crit gives enough time to kill off an uninjured one.

 

I've also tried using Kana's "At the Sound of His Voice, the Killers Froze Stiff" and "The Thunder Rolled like Waves on Black Seas" for Paralysis and Stun but I find they tend to miss on PotD and you can only use those after a fairly long period of chanting and don't have them on demand. 

 

If you don't have disabling afflictions at hand (all used up), engage with a tank (Eder/Pallegina/Itumaak in my case) and try to focus fire to kill off the enemy as fast you can, before it turns on the Rogue. Just after a strike on the tank is a good time to go in. Crippling Strike and Blinding Strike provides additional 1.25x burst damage on both dual wield strikes when activated.

 

That being said, I'm not a 100% dual wield purist. I do recognize that at times, closing in exposes the Rogue to unnecessary danger and trauma so I do opt for using pikes at times (while hitting from behind the tank) for improved safety, or using a ranged weapon when the enemy has a lot of ranged combatants or casters that cannot be crowd controlled adequately.

 

Melee rogues require a good deal of micromanagement in terms of positioning and timing to get the best out of them. They also require other party members to supply needed disabling afflictions (the key word here is disabling, Hobbled/Dazed/Weakened are no where near good enough and even Blinded still results in grazes for the Rogue). That being said, I've found no other class that can dish out as much single target damage.

[Hopekiller]

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79744-tcs-rogue-dw-sabre-4-shot-thaos-1-bs-1-cs/

 

Detailed writeup on DW rogue

[Exoduss]

PoTD has toooooo many trash enemies to move around with melee char , it gets better after defiance bay because even POTD becomes that easy that your rogue can just go 2hiting stuff while tanking anything  , but that is the same with any other class after defiance bay , meanwhile early you might aswell have him using warbow and getting carried to defiance bay , also some fights are just terrible for a melee to be there (not enough space to move arround ) , thats why i havent played a single melee DPS in many playtroughs . 

You also could use Pike early for extended reach and stand behind your tank .

[luzarius]

The consensus seems to be: 

 

- Stay behind tank with increased reach weapon.

- Only engage enemies that are disabled and can't hit back.

 

In other words the rogue seems far too risky for Path of the Damned, Trial of Iron unless you just keep him back the whole time.  In that case, why not use a ranger and get an extra bear companion as an off tank?

 

I just don't see why anyone would pick rogue over ranger on POTD, TOI. 

[Manty5]

The consensus seems to be: 

 

- Stay behind tank with increased reach weapon.

- Only engage enemies that are disabled and can't hit back.

 

In other words the rogue seems far too risky for Path of the Damned, Trial of Iron unless you just keep him back the whole time.  In that case, why not use a ranger and get an extra bear companion as an off tank?

 

I just don't see why anyone would pick rogue over ranger on POTD, TOI. 

 

Before we get into that discussion AGAIN, let me just say that there's a lot of people who vastly prefer warbow rogues, myself included.  Crits tend to get rid of DR concerns fairly nicely, and cloudpiercer is just devastating in the right hands... ROGUE hands.

 

No one's going to deny that pistol rangers with max reload buffs are nice too  =)

Edited May 26, 2015 by Manty5

[Razorchain]

I you are going for a Backstabby rogue you don´t need might.  Backstab will give you a +100% to damage and then you will get an exceptional weapons for another +30% so you will do 230% weapon damage when backstabbing so getting a +24% from might 18 isn´t going to help your character much if he´s facedown in the mud.  So you might as well go for a might 10 rogue and put more points to raise deflection or endurance.

[Manty5]

Let me just add this to what Razorchain said:  All these bonuses are ADDITIVE bonuses, so your max might isn't going to influence how much the other bonuses give.  That said, CON gives even less benefit to a rogue and if you neglect both CON and STR, your fort saves are going to suck, leading to knockdowns/stuns being likely to crit.  You'll have to compensate for that somehow if you drop STR.

 

Edit:  That said, if you want to use items they usually use your might, so less might means weaker offensive scrolls and healing potions, especially the boots that give Jolting Touch or the gloves that give Touch of Rot.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Manty5

[the streaker]

He kinda has a point. For example, 10 damage added onto 100 base damage is a much smaller percent increase than 10 damage added onto 10 base damage.

[dudex]

i had trouble with my melee rogue at the beginning when i was just learning the game. After a few runs I find that having max constitution is amazing for potd playthrus that doesnt abuse a ton of consumables, lots of reloads, choke points, or poor enemy ai.

 

my advice is wait for your tank to engage then u go in for the attacks.

 

go for accuracy boosting talents early game when they are most useful

 

flank and pick off targets when they are engaged. even if they turn to attack you can kill them fast without them doing much damage.

 

early game you will be bad since low accuracy prevents critical but after act 1 u should be spamming those crits. my rogue was stats was like 267 hits and 104 critical after finishing act 1 at level 4. After a couple levels in act 2 its now 1318 crits and 1018 normal hits at level 7. enemies barely get to blink before blowing up when my rogue engages it.

 

u will be hit its unavoidable so i think having a good amount of endurance and hp is the best unless u dont mind rest/reload spamming. Also shod of faith and draining weapons help.

 

so yea u can go safe and play from range but the big damage is in melee.

Edited May 26, 2015 by dudex

[Drath]

The consensus seems to be: 

 

- Stay behind tank with increased reach weapon.

- Only engage enemies that are disabled and can't hit back.

 

In other words the rogue seems far too risky for Path of the Damned, Trial of Iron unless you just keep him back the whole time.  In that case, why not use a ranger and get an extra bear companion as an off tank?

 

I just don't see why anyone would pick rogue over ranger on POTD, TOI. 

 

Well yes if you are looking for survivability, a ranger with a tanking pet isn't a bad choice. Depends on how much you're willing to tolerate, risk-wise IMHO (for Ironman plays, I would agree that this should be very low). If you are willing to shell out some cash to get a good weapon, you can pick up Tall Grass (pike) at Dyrford's armory. It prones opponents on crits and converts some hits to crits. Might not be the very best weapon type dps-wise but it's certainly a safer option and 2-handers are good against opponents with high DR.

 

If you are willing to sacrifice a few dps abilities for safety, you can further improve survivability by say using Escape and/or Coordinated Positioning to get out of engagement. You'll quite probably be going with Reckless Assault, Dirty Fighting, Deathblows and both Blinding Strike and Crippling are nice to have so that still leaves 1 ability to muck around with. Assuming you're not taking Deep Wounds (not really that much dps) or another strike, you can take a defensive ability.

 

Same thing goes with talents, Shadowing Beyond is a good panic button to hit if the rogue finds himself targetted. Popular talents would likely be Two Weapon Style (or whatever weapon style of your choice), Savage Attack, Vicious Fighting, [a weapon focus of your choice]. That still leaves 2 talents. Offensively, this could be something like Envenomed Strike and Vulnerable Attack. Defensively this could instead be Shadowing Beyond and Interrupting Blows (not particularly reliable but better than nothing).

 

It also depends on how often you rest. If you are resting very rarely, pushing the party into Critical Fatigue and low health, its risky to put the rogue out there. But with full health even in the case where the rogue is temporarily knocked out, he's probably done enough damage that the other party members can finish off the battle fairly easily.

 

As a final safety net, if you have a Priest in the party like Durance, for those panic situations, you can use Withdraw on the rogue to get him out of trouble.

 

Ranger might be a more prudent choice for Ironman plays but I still think that there are many ways to play a rogue more safely and at least for me is a fun class for a main character.

[taek]

IMO Rogues should take advantage of the fact that they can deal great damage from melee or ranged, and switch weapons situationally. Fire from range when it’s dangerous and go into close combat when it’s more manageable.

Other high DPS class that must be in melee like Barb or Monk have abilities that help them survive there, with the limitations that many of their abilities don’t work with non-melee weapons.

 

That being said, I think Rogues pair best not with tanks who have no real threat control, but CC classes like Ciphers or Wizards. I think the not-so-subtle hint about that is the fact that Sneak Attack triggers from cc effects. 

[NOS4A2]

Hey Luzarius, I am a straight male, and I thought Cassandra Pentaghast was gorgeous. Though I totally support a lip glossed bimbo for romance options as well lol.

[waveman]

I struggled with a rogue on PoTD, as she died in the first few seconds of every combat (dual wielding, using a 'cautious build type') , almost gave up on the entire class, but then decided to go with a build using medium armour (the golden breast plate found in the Endless paths) a axe (Hearth Hatchet) and a small shield, cautious attack and weapon and shield etc and she has around 80 deflection (at level 5), does reasonable damage and more importantly stays alive to contribute to the group.

[Abalon]

For rogue you almost always want atleast 2 cc classes for potd the haste armor fromantic drywood village and a deflection ring give them plenty of survivability I would also recommend moon good like and a few points in stealth for positioning

[Boeroer]

And I would like to recommend some punctuation. Not only for rogues - but in general. Every class can be improved with some solid, conservative punctuation.

 

A sabre and a small shield are a good setup for a rogue. You don't loose a lot of DPS if you don't go for all the "Full Attack" abilities but gain a lot of survivability.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Boeroer

[Torm51]

I tried playing a melee rogue, I'd wait until enemies were engaged with my tank, then I'd have the rogue go and flank.  The problem is the NPC's will often just turn around and take the rogue down in a few hits.

 

Am I missing something here?   Even with consecrated ground, the rogue seems a bit too flimsy.

 

I realize I can make the rogue do ranged DPS, but I'd rather play a Ranger in that case so I can get the extra off tank bear companion.

I think Cassasndra is hot.

[Mercbeast]

1. Enemies will target the enemy with lowest DR. (but that's not a reason to make your rogue wear heavier armor)

2. Dead enemies can't fight back.

 

 

Solution: Make your rogue so deadly that any enemy he touches dies before it can fight back.

 

 

How: Focus all of your damage capacity on one enemy at a time. Max Rogue Might and Dex. Equip with swingy weapons like Sabres/Axes. Throw one disable on Rogue target like blind to keep it from damage your rogue and also provide Sneak Attacks. Be ready to use Escape/Shadowing Beyond on Rogue. In situations where you can block passage-ways just use ranged and don't worry about getting your rogue in.

 

Is it lowest DR or lowest deflection or a combination of the two? I thought it was primarily lowest deflection.

[Mercbeast]

Hey Luzarius, I am a straight male, and I thought Cassandra Pentaghast was gorgeous. Though I totally support a lip glossed bimbo for romance options as well lol.

 

Rofl, same. Morrigan on the other hand, was a deformed hideous monstrosity in Inquisition. Her face was all kinds of broken.

[DreamWayfarer]

Why are we talking about Dragon Age females on a necro-ed post from the first half of the last year?

[Torm51]

that's exactly why.

 

Why are we talking about Dragon Age females on a necro-ed post from the first half of the last year?

[knownastherat]

Better some traffic than none

 

I tend to agree that small shield is neat for rogue. Seems builds end up with Sabres anyway so damage is fine.  

Edited January 29, 2016 by knownastherat

[Boeroer]

I think in general it's deflection>DR>endurance. But some foes especially focus classes. For example fampyrs will always try to reach my casters first - no matter how tanky they are.