Need help in getting it (combat related.)

[leeux]

Hey there,

 

I'm very disappointed and frustrated ATM.

 

Just recently got the game on GoG, and started playing as I'd play Baldur's Gate (tbh, I have to say that I don't really like the first game too much, but I *love* BG2.),

 

So, I created my first char (I always start as a ranger, traditionally) and got to a point of no return when I reached the Raedric keep fights. They were undoable/completely out of my reach/impossible to pass.  This was on Normal.  I have just deleted all the saves, and looking to try starting from scratch again, maybe with a better class/better choices along the way.

 

I had a party of four + familiar (Me, Eder, Durance and Aloth) all level 4 at that point, just recently leveled up, and I didn't have enough damage to be able to deal with the paladins and priests in the keep. They kept healing themselves (each has like three heals? more?) and they came in numbers in every fight. Aggroed 1/2 and from the back came three more. I sneaked past almost all fights and got to face Raedric himself... and tried to look for an option to avoid fighting, but I couldn't. That fight would have been impossible to me... just for the LOLs, I enabled cheats and set GOD mode on, and sit there arms crossed watching the game do its work... it took almost 15 mins to finish (hadn't any spells at that time... I had recently rested but had to use all I had in a fight with four NPCs prior to this last one...)

 

Don't know what should have done differently, I felt like I did the expected progression... from the starting area to Gilded Vale... did all the side quests I could find there. Completed the Shore area to the south and the cross roads area where Durance is located... etc. I also abandoned the quests for the Temple since it seemed out of my league too.

 

I feel like the fights in the keep were like the fights in BG1 when you reach the city area at the end, but with a L4 party. Imagine that.

 

One thing I can say is that I felt my char as very weak (the same class on BG1 was a beast either on bow or dual wielding...) and with very very very limited options. I mean... I get to use an ability 2 times per fight.... and...... that's all?

 

(Sidetrack: Also, seems strange that the animal companion has NO active ability whatsoever... no strategy involved in using it... just click at the bad guy and he charges and that's just it. In comparison, BG familiars could cast spells and had some active abilities to use... limited to wizards ofc, but... meh, I always used the glitch that allowed to have a familiar in any class, seemed appropriate that a ranger or druid would have one.)

 

I'm rambling now, sorry.

 

My point is not only restricted to the ranger class... seems that combat in general is very very limited in options. Each fight was a tricky decision about using those few wizard spells I had (i.e. only, like, 4 of them? the same for priest spells...) and have to rest? Or do not use them, and have a character be damaged in the fight and also have to rest?  

 

I try to play this games for the story and follow the story of my character, trying to do always what it's correct to the type of character I'm playing. As that, it doesn't seem appropriate to abandon a quest midway... if I come to that, it means that something is not right.  Then I prefer to abandon the saves altogether and rollback to a point before taking the quest and do something else instead. Like a story would, I think.

 

I feel that is not clear what is the path the game expects you to take along the zones... you have no clear indication of expected level for quests. I imagine the thing to do is to skip the Raedric quest and go forward toward Caed Nuad? Or Other? That seems somehow against the standard in this kind of games, that seem to want you to complete all quests in the area before you move forward... I don't know.

 

Ok, just to close this... since I don't think it's clear what I'm asking at this point... What should I do? Can the game be played with a Ranger without being a full-time expert (like I'm sure some you are, at this point...) Or else, what class should I choose?  Do the game expects you to *create* hirelings at the inn to be able to advance past Gilded Vale with a full party? Really? If that's the case, that seems *really* really weird to me :S 

 

Also, please, don't say "Play a Cipher"... I /hate/ overpowered gimmicks with passion. And it seems every game I touch recently has one ridiculous OP thing in it! I've saw someone on youtube playing that class before buying the game, and for the look of it and what he was able to do, seemed completely ridiculous... really.  (For that reason I'd never play a kensai on BG or a Ranger/Cleric :D)

 

Thanks for any tips, and sorry for the long post. I guess a TL;DR is in order... here it's: Don't know what to do, anyone has tips on how to form a successful party without having to master all the ins and outs of the combat system first? (I mean, I'll get there eventually I suppose... just seems a tad strange you have to be a master of it playing on normal while on L4!)

 

Best regards,

Leeux.

 

EDIT: fixed minor typo

Edited April 19, 2015 by leeux

[Serdan]

You can set it to easy and/or hire additional adventurers at the black hound.

Raedric is completely doable at that point no matter your class.

[leeux]

Thank you for the reply, @Serdan

 

As I said... I already deleted that char, no way to go back to that.

 

I'm looking for tips on creating a more viable char in the future. Tried googling for strategy guides (not walkthroughs or spoilery things...) more like, general guidelines, or do/don'ts.

 

There was a great YT video like that for Divinity: Original Sin, for example that help me greatly to avoid common mistakes.

 

I'm perusing some of the character builds in this forum, but very carefully... as they tend to be a bit spoilery, and I don't want to *know* everything storywise before playing the game.

 

Thank you again!

[Mungri]

Unfortunately no spoilers allowed, but lets just say you are doing Raedrics completely wrong.

[Monte Carlo]

The system is nothing like BG. I had the same problem, and I played the backer's beta too.

 

The Raedric Hold fight is very tough. Ignore the savants who find this game too easy - I had to knock the difficulty down to normal with my (level 4) party.

 

The key to most battles in this game, from my own painful experience is -

 

1. A solid front-line with 'sticky' characters, that is they engage and pin a good number of enemies. There is an ability that adds to the number of people your tanks can engage. Take it. I made myself a hulking death godlike fighter henchman and put him in the best armour I could find. He and Eder hold the line.

 

2. Your casters / missile characters need to stay back and avoid aggro. Give them feats that allow them to disengage. Durance has some great buffs and that spell that sets a trap that knocks everybody over. I use that a lot. Use Durance as a missile character (typically, they gave him awful dex) and buffer. Keep him safe. Aloth plays the same role, but with more offensive / crowd control spells. I avoid AoE / direct line of sight magic and get him pumping magic missiles and spells that screw up enemy resistances / speed / mobility.

 

3. My PC is a barbarian. His job is to kill people by flanking and running around like a lunatic while the tanks pin. His abilities let him damage more than one character. Give your 'damage dealer' Eder's armour which basically resurrects you if you die. This might be a rogue, I had an NPC rogue I created for a bit and if you are up to the micromanagement they are good at killing people your tanks have pinned.

 

With the Raedric's hold fight, you will have to carefully plan character loadout, spells, consumables and positioning. I did it third time with two characters left alive. Note there is a way into that fight that allows you to rest immediately before it.

 

Hope a little of this helps. The combat system in this game is not intuitive, it's like you've been driving an automatic car for fifteen years then you get dumped in a stick-shift.

[Monte Carlo]

Unfortunately no spoilers allowed, but lets just say you are doing Raedrics completely wrong.

 

Wow, this forum is awash with helpful people.

[leeux]

The system is nothing like BG. I had the same problem, and I played the backer's beta too. <snip>

 

Thank you for your very helpful post, @Monte Carlo! (I'm still under post limit, so it'll take a while for this to appear...)

 

I'll get to use your suggestions for my next try

 

And now that I know that I *need* to make companions at the inn, I'll be sure to plan things accordingly.

 

Best regards,

Leeux.

[Serdan]

Unfortunately no spoilers allowed, but lets just say you are doing Raedrics completely wrong.

Uhh... There's not really a wrong way to do it.

One of my friends walked in through the front door and slaughtered everything. On hard.

[PrimeJunta]

Raedric is entirely doable at level 4 with your party. Your problem is that you don't (yet) have a good-enough grasp of the mechanics to be able to play effectively. 

 

Some pointers:

• Pay attention to which defense you're attacking. If your spells don't seem to bite, you're likely attacking a defense that's too high. Find a way to debuff it by attacking a weaker defense.
• Crowd control and debuffs are crucial in the bigger fights. For example: blind enemies don't attack or defend very well.
• Use engagement to your advantage. Tank-and-spank is a good general strategy (but by no means the only one). Only move in with your squishier characters once your tankier ones have engaged, so they can move freely.
• If kick-in-the-door style seems too hard, look for alternative approaches. Raedric's hold in particular has several.
• Look for synergies between your party's abilities. For example, Flanked enemies are easier to hit. Having your pet attack an already engaged enemy makes it Flanked. With your class bonuses, it will go down very fast when you shoot it.
• Don't forget to use your per-encounter abilities, every encounter. They go a long way.
• If it really feels too hard, backtrack and hire some help, or look in some other direction. It is possible to get in out of your depth fast if you just go wherever, especially early in the game.
• Compared to BG2, especially BG2 played "blind" without knowing how hard each quest is, P:E is very easy. If you're finding it differently, figure out what you're doing wrong and change it.

[leeux]

 

Unfortunately no spoilers allowed, but lets just say you are doing Raedrics completely wrong.

Uhh... There's not really a wrong way to do it.

One of my friends walked in through the front door and slaughtered everything. On hard.

 

 

Ah, gotcha. Yes, I understand him now (meaning @Mungri)... sadly, I realized too late that I could use the... things... to avoid fighting.

 

Let's avoid spoilers in this, but yes... when I realized, I tried to put them on, but they enemies were already 'red' by that time and there was no turning back from it (meaning, had no prior save to go back... the ones I had were too far behind.) so I went along, trying to fight only the fights I could win, and avoided the areas where enemy density was too high.

[Hebruixe]

Rangers start out very simple. But they gain some nice abilities as they level up. Your animal companion will learn to knock down enemies. You'll get a nice snare ability (immobilizes and damages an enemy), usable x5 per rest. And your attacks will eventually auto stun any enemy if both you and your pet are attacking it. The Ranger is not he most complex or dynamic class, but it's got mojo. And it's supposedly the second highest single-target damage dealer (next to rogues).

 

Raedric's hold can be a pain in the butt if you're undergeared. You probably need to find a better weapon -- ideally a blunderbuss or arquebus, which have some inherent DR penetration. You can easily get your hands on a rifle by recruiting the companion Kana. But I'll refrain from elaborating (so as to avoid giving spoilers) and let you google Kana if you want his gun.

 

Monte Carlo's post above is full of great advice. I recommend studying it.

[Eos]

Some fights aren't meant to be taken early on. If you aren't leveled or geared enough for a fight, you can go somewhere else and return at a later point. PoE is one of those unique games where an encounter can actually be too hard at some point, but doable once you've gathered a bit more experience

[rk47]

You are an egg throwing yourself against a wall of stone.

Come back when you've hatched into a dragon. 

[Ormag]

Wonder how can you not beat anyone or anything in Normal?

did you try to cast spells/use abilities?

[Monte Carlo]

Like I say, this used to be a helpful forum.

[Sedrefilos]

Like I say, this used to be a helpful forum.

 Used to be until the game was released

 

Anyway, back to helping the OPer, this might have spoilers though.

Try to scout ahead a bit and lure lone guards to single fight them before they join a larger group. That worked well with me. On the second floor, you can scout pretty much the entire map by wearing the priests' robes.

 

Also, maybe you need to level up a bit and then try the hold.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Sedrefilos

[Monte Carlo]

Yeah, go and gain a level. There's several fights where I've had to do that. I actually enjoy that about PoE.

[Xosmi]

I've been playing my barbarian on hard, and i was on lvl 4 as well taking on raedric's hold, though at this point i allready had a full party of 6.

I completely slaughtered all enemies for their gear/copper, so it is totally doable, but for the best results you will want to pickup 2 more companions as well, so you can tackle it with a full party.Ideally you will want :

Front line : 2 tanks, at least 1 focusing entirely on defense, the other can be a hybrid

2nd line : 2 damage dealers that can take at least a few hits

3rd line : 1 glass cannon focusing entirely on damage dealing and the supporter.

Looking at your party composition, your bigest problem is that you are currently only running 1 tank(edér) and 1 2nd line damage dealer (your PC) which probably won't cut it trying to protect aloth (your glass cannon) and durance (support)

 

Without spoiling anything about the game and/or the companions you haven't found yet, i find that the biggest problem there is with the game supplied companions is that there's only one that can be built into a decent tank which is edér, and 1 damage dealer that's sturdy enough to take a few hits (the game supplied ranger) all other game-supplied companions are pretty much glass cannons.

2 of the companions you havn't found yet can be build out into decent hybrid tank/damage dealers to go alongside with edér, so that takes care of your 1st line, and along with your PC there's another ranger companion that can become a good damage dealer that can take a few hits, so that can be your 2nd line.

you're pretty much stuck with durance as your support/healing turret, unless you hire an adventurer priest. the glass cannon spot is probably best filled by one of the spell-casting companions - I'd put a cipher here but unless you hire a cipher adventurer, you're gonna be stuck with aloth for a while untill you get the game supplied one.

[luzarius]

Believe it or not, you're going to have a lot of fun figuring out the combat. Just keep trying and remember, figuring it out is the fun part. 

 

1. Positioning is the key to winning battles in this game, have fun experimenting with getting enemies to stand where you want them to (hint).

2. With two tanks you can setup a wall and control the enemy positioning. You can make the enemy form a line or a circle. Once you control the enemies movement then you can setup them up for AOE attacks.

3. Take the movie three hundred for example, you got a wall of tanks.  Then imagine if they started their fights with a few crossbows, then switched to shield and sword. 

4. If your tank doesn't do a lot of damage, why not give him a hatchet (+5 deflection) in addition to a large shield (+16 deflection).

5. Why not start off a fight with your rogue if you have one and let him get his sneak attack in with a crossbow?

 

As a ranger you can do 1.5x damage against enemies who are suffering from wounding shot AOE.

 

NEW RULE

 

Use all your abilities, don't save any of them. Approach every fight with such overwhelming force that you end up showing no mercy. Just go back to the inn after every fight if you have to.

 

Check out my FIGHTER BUILD for POTD/Trial of Iron:

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/77918-fighter-build-for-path-of-the-damned-trial-of-iron-with-rp-inspired-by-evil-tealc/

 

I consider this build a spoiler though, it's far more fun to figure it all out yourself, but a few hints won't hurt.

 

 

TACTICS

 

- IMPORTANT: Have Eder or your DPS ready to move behind enemies to flank them, this lowers enemy deflection so you can land more hits.  You have to be right behind the enemy then look for the flanked status on the enemy. This is important especially if you're playing POTD difficulty for the fights at the start of the game (camp). If you don't flank, you're just prolonging the fight which means more damage to your health.

- FOOD, use food before fights that give damage reduction (ale) and +10 endurance minimum.  Food is cheap eat and drink hearty before battle! Make ready your breakfast and eat hearty.  Ale + Cheese is bare minimum for tough fights.

- Use Hatchet & Large Shield when tanking, Hatchet gives you even more deflection. If no one is attacking your tank, then have your tank switch to a average or fast speed weapon with accuracy. This same concept applies to any other tank or offtank in the party.

- Use choke points when you can with tanks in front (duh), focus fire one enemy when possible (duh).

- Pull with a ranged weapon and make sure you and Eder are both engaged before moving in any other character. It's more important to control a fight rather than rushing to do DPS.  I repeat, use your tank and Eder to position the enemies, once the enemies are attacking your tanks, THEN you can start using your other characters (moving them, attacking, healing, etc).  Side note: If you have a rogue then pull with powerful ranged weapon for sneak attack.

- I REPEAT, make sure your tanks are engaged with all the enemies before you use your other companions for anything. Once the enemies are settled in their positions, then make your DPS/Healing move.

- Priests basic combo is that consecrated ground healing thing he puts down and the armor of faith buff that increases the party damage reduction, A priest best attack is the Iconic projection which heals and damages enemies, spam the hell out of that.

- Once you feel that you're controlling the fight to a certain degree, then move the wizard to the side and behind of the enemy to use that Fan of Flames (or similar spells) to AOE dmg down the enemy. 

- Wizard can place slicken oil to the left & right of the tanks to make sure enemies can't just go around your tanks to attack your weaker companions in the back.

- Tanks in front, your priest in center of party, wizards behind priest, rogue waiting patiently for moment of opportunity, don't just rush your rogue in letting him die early on.  Once a rogue gets behind an enemy and that enemy is "Flanked", he's screwed even on POTD difficulty.

Edited April 19, 2015 by luzarius

[tnc]

Just pick up the chanter companion it's easy to reach you don't even need to fight to get him. And btw going to raedric should be the last thing you do before act 2. The boss fight there is probably the hardest fight in act 1. (act 2 starts once you get to big city)

[player1]

If you are like me and do not want to use hired adventures, then try progressing through main quest more. You will quickly find 5th companion, and progressing slightly more you'll get 6th companion.

 

Then go back and deal with the keep and other side quests.

Edited April 19, 2015 by player1

[Monte Carlo]

I like the idea of stuffing your face full of beer, meat and cheese before fighting

[gogocactus]

If I were you I would use a character that does hocus pocus and thereby uses a hefty amount of focus.

[leeux]

Thank you for all the replies! There are some awesome posts too

 

I've started a new character last night, a paladin, and rushed through the start of the game to reach Gilded Vale inn to try hiring a few adventurers there. I created one rogue and one druid (I hope I've chosen correctly...) 

 

For now it seems to be working, got to L3 now and will proceed to try to clear the area where you find Durance, and then move south, to be in the stage I was before. got into some fights in the process, and everything worked ok so far.

 

 

Reading back through the thread, wanted to answer some of the points made:

 

W.r.t. to the fights inside the keep that I couldn't beat: that was because of the self-healing. Took me some time to realize that they were healing themselves, so I used all my spells and abilities, maybe was able to take out one of the squishier ones, but in the end the paladins/champions were at full health and I had no other move left than wack them with my weapons, which is a slow process and prone to get you damaged.

 

I took the "side" entrance to the keep (the one that requires a tool  )

While inside the keep, I avoided most fights by taking the route up from where you land to the upper levels... then fought some easy fights with priests and acolytes to reach the guy behind locked doors (don't remember his name...).  It was at that moment that I realized that I could have used the disguise thing to avoid fighting... but it was already too late for that.

 

And yes, I used the rest option to be ready for what's coming. After that, when your set, what happened was that in my fumbling around trying to find the way to go I stumbled upon more NPCs that I could handle... twice 

 

Example, first time, I opened the big door to the south of the area... immediately got aggroed by a group of 4-5 npcs, at least 2 paladins, a magey type and a priest. I tried to beat those guys... but i was badly positioned at the start, and their healing made difficult to be able to take them down. I let the fight go ahead after using my spells, and I beat them but ended with two of my guys damages (knocked down.)  So I reloaded and then avoided opening that door 

 

Second time tried a different route through a narrow corridor going exactly south/west-ish from where I was -> same thing, several paladins and mages, extended fight, etc.

 

After all that, I finally found the sneaky door I was supposed to use hidden in the corner of the map, in a area I already visited. Went through that, and got to face him... but after the dialog turned all of them red... ahem, I was having trouble defeating 4-5 npcs before, so there was no way I could handle 7/8 of them at the same time 

 

But that's all in the past, now I know what to do... And I've got several really good points to put to use from this thread, thanks to you! 

 

So, thanks again all! Specially @Xosmi, @luzarius, @PrimeJunta, and @Monte Carlo for those great posts full of tips!

[Jimmysdabestcop]

Always have your party at 6 characters. If you didn't find enough NPC's then create some at the inn, Once you find NPC's you can readjust the party.

 

I created a Rogue and a CIpher in 1st town. I didn't get to Cipher NPC to I was about 95% done Act 2 in my 1st playthrough. I went in bling didn't know anything and just never bothered getting there. Only time I have 5 NPC's is if my PC is a Rogue. I just don't want any parties without a rogue that is nonsense.

 

My next playthrough think I will go ala Icewind Dale and create my PC and 5 characters at the Inn.