about rolling stats (like the old IE games)

[jones092201]

i assume this was discussed, but i can't find it. Can anyone share a link or explain why OE decided to go with the way they did?

 

I know it's too late to implement this, but i'd love to see this feature in either a mod or a patch/expansion. Rolling characters, while ponderous, was also strangely rewarding. Especially if you don't alter values or only alter a point or two. I think rolling stats could allow for some interesting builds, where a character who would not touch a certain stat normally, lucks out and gets a high roll that could open up new dialouge, etc. 

 

 

 

 

[Miquel93]

i assume this was discussed, but i can't find it. Can anyone share a link or explain why OE decided to go with the way they did?

 

I know it's too late to implement this, but i'd love to see this feature in either a mod or a patch/expansion. Rolling characters, while ponderous, was also strangely rewarding. Especially if you don't alter values or only alter a point or two. I think rolling stats could allow for some interesting builds, where a character who would not touch a certain stat normally, lucks out and gets a high roll that could open up new dialouge, etc. 

 

I really doubt rolling stats was ever at the table. it just leads to degenerate behavior (Roll, reroll, reroll, reroll... until you arrive to the one that has optimal stats) and it doesn't add anything in the context of a videogame.

 

Sorry, but I doubt you'll ever see this feature again in any RPG, most certainly not in one designed by Josh Sawyer. 

[Cantousent]

Yeah, Sawyer from everything I've read is strongly in favor of a straight point buy system.  That's always been kind of cool because I prefer straight point buy.  Frankly, from what I've seen at least, you'd have more luck with weighted point buy, which I also hate.  I actually don't mind rolling.  I just think it encourages people to treat rolling characters as a mini game.  I don't care that they can get a real benefit, only that a straight point buy gives people a fair and understandable way to distribute points and get started on the game.  ...But I *know* some people really jones for dice rolling.

[GreyFox]

I love rolling up characters with dice but it's honestly easier to balance gameplay with the point system.

[Heijoushin]

Hmmmm... In a way, I know how you feel. With the good roll, you could virtually make a perfect character (stat-wise). That satisfies the "power gamer" that we all have sleeping within us. But... rolling over and over and over till you get a good score was a little boring. Perhaps this is for the best...

[Cantousent]

The thing though, G Fox, is that the initial attribute spread has decreasing importance compared to ability and class choices immediately.  It's virtually always less important than other factors from the get go.

[ManifestedISO]

Hey, who are you calling a degenerate. 

 

It is painful and rewarding to roll a thousand times and finally get an 18(00). Such dedication, you don't even mind when the Girdle of Frost Giant Strength shows up.  

[CaptainMace]

I learnt only, like, last year that people like to spend (a lot of) time rolling characters in IE games. I didn't even know there was a backup button (edit, now that i think of it, hasn't it been added by the enhanced editions ?).
I don't think that's as... "rewarding" as you say it is. Just grab some dices and you can roll characters all day long mate.

 

That satisfies the "power gamer" that we all have sleeping within us.

 

We really haven't.

 

But... rolling over and over and over till you get a good score was a little boring.

 

Still can't believe people did/do this.

Edited March 12, 2015 by CaptainMace

[etagloc]

I love rolling up characters with dice but it's honestly easier to balance gameplay with the point system.

well so do I .. in tabletop.. were I don't have unlimited rolls.

[Diogenes]

Rolling for stats is really only good for specific situations like challenge games in tabletop with no rerolls allowed. Plus its kind of pointless for a videogame since everyone who knows what they are doing is going to reroll until they hit a certain threshold (I need at least 85 points total before I give up come oooon) and it just punished new players who don't realise how beneficial rerolling can be.

 

Not to mention how to balance the game when the main character can have either no 18s or all 18s depending on how committed they are to reroling constantly. With this system everyone gets the same amount of points so you have to actually put some thought into how you build your character instead of rolling until you can max out all the stats you care about, making them irrelevant really.

[Karkarov]

 

I love rolling up characters with dice but it's honestly easier to balance gameplay with the point system.

well so do I .. in tabletop.. were I don't have unlimited rolls.

Actually in my tabletop games we did the ol roll 4d6, drop the lowest number, if lowest number is a tie reroll one of them, replace your lowest total roll with a straight 18, if used on strength assume it is an 18/01.  Guess what though?  You got 1 set of rolls and that was that, if you still somehow managed to roll a crappy character you had to suck it up.

 

In a game like Eternity though the point buy is the smart play.  It avoids all the rolling nonsense, is easier to balance, and means everyone has decent balanced stats right out the gate.  It can also be used to determine mob stats too, keeping everything nice and balanced.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Karkarov

[lightblade75]

 

i assume this was discussed, but i can't find it. Can anyone share a link or explain why OE decided to go with the way they did?

 

I know it's too late to implement this, but i'd love to see this feature in either a mod or a patch/expansion. Rolling characters, while ponderous, was also strangely rewarding. Especially if you don't alter values or only alter a point or two. I think rolling stats could allow for some interesting builds, where a character who would not touch a certain stat normally, lucks out and gets a high roll that could open up new dialouge, etc. 

 

I really doubt rolling stats was ever at the table. it just leads to degenerate behavior (Roll, reroll, reroll, reroll... until you arrive to the one that has optimal stats) and it doesn't add anything in the context of a videogame.

 

Sorry, but I doubt you'll ever see this feature again in any RPG, most certainly not in one designed by Josh Sawyer. 

 

Yes. This can't be said in better words!

[Heijoushin]

I learnt only, like, last year that people like to spend (a lot of) time rolling characters in IE games. I didn't even know there was a backup button (edit, now that i think of it, hasn't it been added by the enhanced editions ?).

I don't think that's as... "rewarding" as you say it is. Just grab some dices and you can roll characters all day long mate.

 

That satisfies the "power gamer" that we all have sleeping within us.

 

We really haven't.

 

But... rolling over and over and over till you get a good score was a little boring.

 

Still can't believe people did/do this.

 

Wow dude, no need to be a jerk about it if you disagree with me...

 

But the fact that there was a backup button added means that there are a lot of people who do/did this.

 

In the original game, there was no backup button, so it might not have been something you noticed immediately, but eventually you notice that not all characters are created equal. And when you do, surely it's natural to reroll at least a couple of times to get a little better stats?

 

 

Edited March 12, 2015 by Heijoushin

[CaptainMace]

Sorry mate I was out of coffee this morning. I've nothing against that, I just never felt the need to reroll since ie games let us manage the points pool.
Still don't understand it though

[Gromnir]

The thing though, G Fox, is that the initial attribute spread has decreasing importance compared to ability and class choices immediately.  It's virtually always less important than other factors from the get go.

am not sure that is fair.  depends on the system and depends on the gm/dm and it depends on many other factors.  for instance, with original d&d as well as ad&d, leveling occurred extreme slow; it took literal years o' regular gameplay for us to get our first level 9 character in ad&d, and am pretty certain we never managed to get past level 7 with a white box d&d character. also, magic gear from bg and the ie games woulda' been derided as monty haul by any old-timey pnp gamer.  the presence o' relative over-powered gear in the ie games resulted in the diminished importance of bonuses and penalties from attributes.  also, while some ie gamers may find it hard to believe, but there were, particularly in the 80s, dozens if not hundreds o' pnp game systems, some o' which may not have even had traditional abilities.  

 

regardless, in old d&d pnp, original ability scores could be extreme important for many years o' gameplay.  the ie games didn't actual reflect any o' our  pnp d&d campaigns... which is likely a good thing as we doubt such stuff woulda' sold very well.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps Gromnir is adamant opposed to rolling stats.  

Edited March 12, 2015 by Gromnir

[Kjaamor]

I probably spent more time rolling stats than I did playing the rest of the IE games.

 

I am against mechanics that require no thought or skill but make my life more difficult for not engaging in them.

 

I'm particularly against the rolling of attributes, because if this is anything like the IE games those stats can be incredibly important for your entire game.

 

And having said all that, if they put stat rolling in I would almost certainly merrily support my face with my left hand while my right clicked away into infinity, no pun intended.

[Sedrefilos]

Ok, here's the solution to your problem OP (also discussed 2 years ago). Grab four 6-sided dice. Roll them on your desk six times (removing the lowest roll each time), thus generating your random numbers. Here you go! Match each number to a stat and you're ready to play Pillars of Eternity with a rolling mechanic

[redneckdevil]

U can still ro stats, I've done it for a couple of my characters. All u do is grab u some dice and roll 6 times with 4 dice and drop the lowest. Then apply the numbers where u see fit or do as I did and just go down the line with the numbers u get )

[Luckmann]

In a PnP system, I always think that it's vastly superior to have a rolling system with free distribution, because it leaves you with interesting characters that doesn't have the straight-up min/maxing that they can have.

 

But in a CRPG? Eeh.. don't really see the point. As have been said, it just leads to rolling until you get exactly what you want.

 

I don't think I ever played a BG/BGII character that didn't have straight 18's-19's. The funniest was playing a Cleric, because it means you get 21 Wisdom at the start of BG2. I mean. C'mon.

[GreyFox]

 

 

I love rolling up characters with dice but it's honestly easier to balance gameplay with the point system.

well so do I .. in tabletop.. were I don't have unlimited rolls.

Actually in my tabletop games we did the ol roll 4d6, drop the lowest number, if lowest number is a tie reroll one of them, replace your lowest total roll with a straight 18, if used on strength assume it is an 18/01.  Guess what though?  You got 1 set of rolls and that was that, if you still somehow managed to roll a crappy character you had to suck it up.

 

In a game like Eternity though the point buy is the smart play.  It avoids all the rolling nonsense, is easier to balance, and means everyone has decent balanced stats right out the gate.  It can also be used to determine mob stats too, keeping everything nice and balanced.

 

 

Yea we did similar as well except we only reroll 1's and no free 18's.

 

I was also talking about easier to balance a cRPG with point system...especially with modern rules.

 

The older editions were better to roll IMO and like Grom said...you could use those stats for years.

[Abel]

In a PnP system, I always think that it's vastly superior to have a rolling system with free distribution, because it leaves you with interesting characters that doesn't have the straight-up min/maxing that they can have.

 

But in a CRPG? Eeh.. don't really see the point. As have been said, it just leads to rolling until you get exactly what you want.

 

I don't think I ever played a BG/BGII character that didn't have straight 18's-19's. The funniest was playing a Cleric, because it means you get 21 Wisdom at the start of BG2. I mean. C'mon.

 

Rolling for about 1 hour was boring, but... quite fun too to me. Call me a masochist :D. Still, having good attribute stats (better than the average CNPC) was somewhat ok for me in BG1/2, because you were kind of the son of a god. I didn't felt like the average was enough for such a player background. My last playthrough, i rolled an impressive 99 total :D (more than 16 average). True that i rolled and rerolled after having played BG for at least 1000 or 2000 hours though. Not in first playthroughs. And for a regular PC that has no particular "godly" background, i may not be interested in rolling about 1 hour to achieve such godly scores.

 

The thing i don't like with the PoE system though, is that at the end, all your PCs in all your playthroughs will just have the exact same amount of points to distribute. Which feel boring to me, too.

[Madscientist]

I hope there will be no rolling for stats in any future RPG.

 

In BG, IWD and realms of arcadia I rerolled for 2 hours until I had the perfect party. I did this while watching TV and than I saved the game ( and in case of IWD it took some month until I started to play with this group.)

 

A point buy system creates more balanced chars and it is easier to balance the difficulty level.

 

PnP and computer RPGs are two different things and just because somethings exist in one of them you don´t need to put it in the other.

[Voss]

The thing though, G Fox, is that the initial attribute spread has decreasing importance compared to ability and class choices immediately.  It's virtually always less important than other factors from the get go.

Actually, in most games, it is the complete opposite.  Great stats allows the character to face-roll content, and poor stats are an optimal path to suicide. 

Rolled stats generally lead to problems regardless of format, unless they're deliberately tweaked to avoid sub-optimal (and hopefully godlike) results.

[Cantousent]

The bonuses from initial stats are less important than other decisions from the very beginning, even in table top.  They can make a difference, as Grom points out, but in sheer number crunching terms, they become increasingly less important.  We're talking initial stats here, and even 2nd edition stats which had some wildly different spreads in terms of bonuses and whatnot those initial stats weren't the end all be all.  Sure, if you get huge stat increases  throughout the game, you're going to see a great benefit, but the idea that even making all your initial stats 18 at character creation will make you invincible is just plain silly.  Frankly, and I mean no offense and hope you take none, but it's an unserious comment to say that the *initial* character creation stats are the make or break moment in just about any CRPG game I've played.  Even if high stats can be a huge benefit at lower levels, and in particular the first two or three, there's still so many other factors.  ...And 3rd edition made those bonuses uniform, which means that you're not getting that huge spread of to hit and damage bonuses of an 18/00 STR from 2nd edition.  Meanwhile, in a straight point buy system, you can already max your primary stat bonuses.  Rerolling could conceivably allow you to spend a huge amount of time to get max bonuses in secondary or tertiary stats.  So, the idea that the extra +2 bonus from a tertiary stat at, say, fifth level will be more important than decisions regarding skills, perks, gear, etc. is just crazy talk.

[Tamerlane]

(Death to ability scores.)