White People: What They Say in Public vs Behind Closed Doors

[rjshae]

The very title of this thread is bigoted; the idea that "white people" perform some sort of identical discourse when they are in private. It isn't even close to meaningful.

Edited March 13, 2015 by rjshae

[Malcador]

My wife sometimes lovingly calls me a "wop". Then I call her a "mick" and we laugh and laugh and go make out.

For a moment I was wondering why you were implying your wife was a dude.

[HoonDing]

I don't mind Whiteys, but they should learn how to drive.

[Hurlshort]

 

Longknife's argument against anti-semitism existing in Germany seems to boil down to the fact that there aren't that many Jewish people in Germany.  

 

In all fairness, I'd also argue that there isn't any meaningful anti-black sentiment in my country because we have a very low (<1%, if I had to guess) percentage of black population.

 

Would this reasoning be faulty?

 

 

No.  But your country probably didn't gas millions of black people to drive that percentage down.  

[Gorgon]

Germany made a huge mistake in making Nazi symbolism illegal. That's right, you can't actually show a swastika in Germany without special permission. They should have marginalized and ridiculed them instead. Imagine the cool factor you can have simply by virtue of being officially forbidden.

 

This story of a resurgent extreme right in Europe has been told on and off for several decades though. I wonder if anyone has any concrete figures to back it up, remember we are talking about underground movements here.

[Gromnir]

 

"The days of racism against Jews in Germany are absolutely dead. Sure, of course you could find a loon if you wanted to, but the percent of the population that would support such opinions is so tiny it's not worth mentioning."

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/17/opinion/jochen-bittner-whats-behind-germanys-new-anti-semitism.html

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/anti-semitism-debate-roils-german-left-1416434267

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/04/antisemitism-germany_n_6794928.html

 

is dated 2014 and 2015.

 

racism is not only loading folks into cattle cars and then slaughtering 'em by the millions.  yes, the worst thing the nazis did were their mass murders o' jews, gays, gypsies, etc.  even so, their enduring legacy might be that the scale and overt nature o' their atrocities makes us instantly think o' nazis when we hear o' "racists." is easy to ignore comparatively trivial racism... and just about everything is gonna be trivial in comparison.

 

edit: also note that is not only muslim germans accused o' being responsible in the rise o' anti-jewish hate.

 

 

 

 

Read the articles again and check the comment section. You'll find plenty of people in the comment section calling it absurd aswell, or saying the only anti-Semites in Germany are not the Germans themselves. The only people who'd voice such racism are Muslim immigrants; not saying that to try and throw those guys under the bus or something, it's just the honest truth. The only time I ever get news about anti-semitism or Nazis is when the Nazi political party visits a town to do a demonstration or whatever and it ends the same every time: they bring 30 people, they get faced with a counter-protest of 30,000 or something ridiculous. My experience here differs so drastically from those articles that yes, I would be so bold as to question the legitimacy of their claims.

 

we got no difficulty recognizing germans might be imagining and hoping that no anti-jewish behavior exists in their country.  as hurl points out, there is an extreme small number o' jews in germany, so is even easier for germans today to pretend that jewish persecution isn't happening than were the case in the 1930s and 1940s. we has had similar experiences to true neutral, but it were admitted over a decade ago.  am not sure if most germans honestly don't notice such stuff going on in their own population, or they has some kinda reflex need to deny.

 

also, we found a reuters article that seems to support the fox article: 

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/10/us-germany-jews-idUSKBN0LE1ZE20150210

 

am suspecting that hurl is correct that there is little practical anti-jewish activity simply because they is no longer a viable target of opportunity for hate in germany.  most german jews were slaughtered, and of the few remaining, many o' those left the country.  is a rather disturbing way to end anti-jewish activity.

 

on the quasi-positive side, we don't believe anti-jewish sub-culture and incidents is as bad in germany as elsewhere in europe... for whatever that is worth.     

Edited March 13, 2015 by Gromnir

[Blarghagh]

Germany made a huge mistake in making Nazi symbolism illegal. That's right, you can't actually show a swastika in Germany without special permission. They should have marginalized and ridiculed them instead. Imagine the cool factor you can have simply by virtue of being officially forbidden.

 

I very much agree with this. Both disillusioned young people and young people who just want to look cool by rebelling will take any chance they get to appear anti-establishment, giving real neo-Nazis the perfect hook to get their claws into young people.

 

Of course, some people will just blame it on the gaming community.

[Gromnir]

obviously Gromnir is a proponent o' free speech

 

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the process of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence." J. Brandeis from, Whitney v. California, 274 US 357 

 

seems axiomatic to us, but such thinking don't get embraced elsewhere to the same degree.  as we has said elsewhere, the speech that is needing protection is the speech that offends.  let folks spew a little angry rhetoric.  the alternative is angry splinter groups feel that they is marginalized and unjustly denied basic rights, leading those increasingly angry groups to eventual find more unsavory outlets for their rage.  let the nutters shout their silly nonsense so we might all laugh at them.  unfortunately, if you prevent the nutters from speaking, then you provide common cause between groups o' angry dirt bags that would not naturally have aligned.  turn a small problem into a big one.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gorgon]

Ariel Sharon should STFU though, suggesting that European jewish communites should all move to Israel, he's making it worse. It's bad enough that his government can't seem to stop themselves committing war crimes every other year when there is another Gaza offensive. 

[Malcador]

Ariel Sharon should STFU though, suggesting that European jewish communites should all move to Israel, he's making it worse. It's bad enough that his government can't seem to stop themselves committing war crimes every other year when there is another Gaza offensive.

Well...he certainly has STFU now.

[Gorgon]

I mean tNetanyahu. Anyway aren't  they basically the same person. 

[Malcador]

I mean tNetanyahu. Anyway aren't  they basically the same person.

All jews look alike, eh ? You anti-semite!

 

 

But yes, from what I recall of Sharon's stance on things, there's not much different between them.

[Longknife]

 

 

Longknife's argument against anti-semitism existing in Germany seems to boil down to the fact that there aren't that many Jewish people in Germany.  

 

In all fairness, I'd also argue that there isn't any meaningful anti-black sentiment in my country because we have a very low (<1%, if I had to guess) percentage of black population.

 

Would this reasoning be faulty?

 

 

No.  But your country probably didn't gas millions of black people to drive that percentage down.  

 

 

 

But again it's also not fair to claim the anti-semitism that existed 70 years ago is still there simply because Germany lacks the Jewish population neccesary to show it's true colors, allegedly. It's essentially guilty before proven innocent.

 

 

As I said, racism stems from ignorant people needing a target to blame, and that target is going to be the most noticeable minority group. Black people and jews do not get targeted because they are not numerous enough. If you were to ask me if there's racism against Turks, Russians or Muslims in Germany, I'd answer "absolutely" with the clarification that it's not any more severe than the same kind of racism you'd encounter in any country. There isn't severe racism towards Jews because they are not large enough of a group to warrant that here. But to claim that WERE they large enough, anti-semitism would run rampant and therefore Germans are still anti-semites? That's guilty before innocent. And if you're argument is that following my logic, racism against jews WOULD exist if they were a large enough minority, then the point is I feel as though the implications being made are that Germany is especially bad about anti-semitism or something, as if Germans instinctually hate Jews or like we have a +10 attack bonus towards them or something. No, the same potential (keyword right there) that would exist here would exist anywhere. I'd actually bet it'd be more diminished here just because there's sooooo many Germans I know who dare not comment on a single Israeli issue or the like out of some kind of belief it's "not their place" to speak on something involving Jewish people.

 

 

 

That's weird, I don't even live there, I've just spent maybe 3 weeks total in my life there, and I managed to encounter neo-Nazis in both Berlin and Küln.

 

EDIT: To be fair, in Berlin it was in the zoo and I can't be sure they weren't tourist hooligans bored and stirring up trouble, so I'm not sure they were German. They got thrown out, too. But in Küln they were literally passing out leaflets with neo-Nazi propoganda, so I'm positive on that one.

 

 

Moreover, to be fair, you're naming two of the biggest cities in the country. (and do you call it Küln in Dutch or was that a typo...?) You'll always encounter more crazies in the bigger cities. Anyone who's ever lived in a city can tell you this. I was born in San Francisco and I could tell you a dozen stories about the loons I or my family/friends encountered there; they're practically a gossip/small talk subject. But you can also find Neo-Nazis in the USA, or in any country. If we wanna name a country with serious Neo-Nazi problems, go to Russia.

 

 

My main point is that I consider it unfair to attribute anti-semitism to Germany because that seems to be an argument based on Germany's history, and not on Germany's now. I feel just as likely to encounter a Neo Nazi in New York City as I am to encounter one in Berlin, and I would attribute the existence of many of the articles being linked as stemming from the fact that it's easy to see a Neo-Nazi in Germany specifically and get uncomfortable or make extra hoopla about it. That makes sense in a way because a German of all people should understand why it's wrong, but it's still very unfair to attribute anti-semitism to Germany because we happen to house the very same Neo-Nazi loons you can find in every country. The only country that has more serious issues with Neo-Nazis (aka, it's not that random idiot who lives on the streets or a rather small and powerless group of idiots, but rather a larger group with actual influence), to my knowledge, is Russia.

 

 

tl;dr I feel you guys are unfairly exaggerating the percent of anti-semites within Germany because it's easy to do so given Germany's history, but the reality is that the same percent can probably be found within every first world country.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Longknife

[obyknven]

 

Umm Russian Jews maybe? 

Because of my Migrants tread is closed i post answer here.

 

Nope. These can't be because:

1. Jews are not ethnic Russians - word "Russian" can't be used as ethnic marker here.

2. These Jews who live in Murica are not citizens of Russia obviously - word "Russian" can't be used as citizenship marker here. 

 

As result we have quite strange situation when Muricans constantly spread hate against Russians, but in same time they use word "Russians" for marking of Jews, this is looks like masked antisemitism for me.

[Blarghagh]

 

 

 

Longknife's argument against anti-semitism existing in Germany seems to boil down to the fact that there aren't that many Jewish people in Germany.  

 

In all fairness, I'd also argue that there isn't any meaningful anti-black sentiment in my country because we have a very low (

 

Would this reasoning be faulty?

 

 

No.  But your country probably didn't gas millions of black people to drive that percentage down.  

 

 

 

But again it's also not fair to claim the anti-semitism that existed 70 years ago is still there simply because Germany lacks the Jewish population neccesary to show it's true colors, allegedly. It's essentially guilty before proven innocent.

 

 

As I said, racism stems from ignorant people needing a target to blame, and that target is going to be the most noticeable minority group. Black people and jews do not get targeted because they are not numerous enough. If you were to ask me if there's racism against Turks, Russians or Muslims in Germany, I'd answer "absolutely" with the clarification that it's not any more severe than the same kind of racism you'd encounter in any country. There isn't severe racism towards Jews because they are not large enough of a group to warrant that here. But to claim that WERE they large enough, anti-semitism would run rampant and therefore Germans are still anti-semites? That's guilty before innocent. And if you're argument is that following my logic, racism against jews WOULD exist if they were a large enough minority, then the point is I feel as though the implications being made are that Germany is especially bad about anti-semitism or something, as if Germans instinctually hate Jews or like we have a +10 attack bonus towards them or something. No, the same potential (keyword right there) that would exist here would exist anywhere. I'd actually bet it'd be more diminished here just because there's sooooo many Germans I know who dare not comment on a single Israeli issue or the like out of some kind of belief it's "not their place" to speak on something involving Jewish people.

 

 

 

That's weird, I don't even live there, I've just spent maybe 3 weeks total in my life there, and I managed to encounter neo-Nazis in both Berlin and Küln.

 

EDIT: To be fair, in Berlin it was in the zoo and I can't be sure they weren't tourist hooligans bored and stirring up trouble, so I'm not sure they were German. They got thrown out, too. But in Küln they were literally passing out leaflets with neo-Nazi propoganda, so I'm positive on that one.

 

 

Moreover, to be fair, you're naming two of the biggest cities in the country. (and do you call it Küln in Dutch or was that a typo...?) You'll always encounter more crazies in the bigger cities. Anyone who's ever lived in a city can tell you this. I was born in San Francisco and I could tell you a dozen stories about the loons I or my family/friends encountered there; they're practically a gossip/small talk subject. But you can also find Neo-Nazis in the USA, or in any country. If we wanna name a country with serious Neo-Nazi problems, go to Russia.

 

 

My main point is that I consider it unfair to attribute anti-semitism to Germany because that seems to be an argument based on Germany's history, and not on Germany's now. I feel just as likely to encounter a Neo Nazi in New York City as I am to encounter one in Berlin, and I would attribute the existence of many of the articles being linked as stemming from the fact that it's easy to see a Neo-Nazi in Germany specifically and get uncomfortable or make extra hoopla about it. That makes sense in a way because a German of all people should understand why it's wrong, but it's still very unfair to attribute anti-semitism to Germany because we happen to house the very same Neo-Nazi loons you can find in every country. The only country that has more serious issues with Neo-Nazis (aka, it's not that random idiot who lives on the streets or a rather small and powerless group of idiots, but rather a larger group with actual influence), to my knowledge, is Russia.

 

 

tl;dr I feel you guys are unfairly exaggerating the percent of anti-semites within Germany because it's easy to do so given Germany's history, but the reality is that the same percent can probably be found within every first world country.

 

 

Oh, I wasn't making percentage judgements. I was just responding to your anecdotal evidence with my own. And I believe Küln is the German name, right? I forget what the English and Dutch names are.   I go there occassionally because the best amusement park in Europe is close to it and I'm a bit of a park nut.

[Valsuelm]

 

Oh, I wasn't making percentage judgements. I was just responding to your anecdotal evidence with my own. And I believe Küln is the German name, right? I forget what the English and Dutch names are.   I go there occassionally because the best amusement park in Europe is close to it and I'm a bit of a park nut.

 

In German it's Köln.

 

In English it's Cologne.

 

I had thought you were using Dutch.

[Valsuelm]

 

 

Umm Russian Jews maybe? 

Because of my Migrants tread is closed i post answer here.

 

Nope. These can't be because:

1. Jews are not ethnic Russians - word "Russian" can't be used as ethnic marker here.

2. These Jews who live in Murica are not citizens of Russia obviously - word "Russian" can't be used as citizenship marker here. 

 

As result we have quite strange situation when Muricans constantly spread hate against Russians, but in same time they use word "Russians" for marking of Jews, this is looks like masked antisemitism for me.

 

 

You consistently go out of your way to insult the people of the U.S. and the U.S. itself on these forums.

 

No one was going out of their way to insult Russia, or Russians. No one here was asserting that Jewish people and Russian people are one and the same.

 

Most of your posts are nothing more than troll posts. You very rarely contribute intelligently to any discussion on these forums. I've little doubt you're capable of it, but you waste your time and ours with your trolling. Please stop, or take it elsewhere.

[Gfted1]

I like how they always leave the "h" out of "thread". Its the little touches that matter.

[Malcador]

You consistently go out of your way to insult the people of the U.S. and the U.S. itself on these forums.

He gets a pretty good return on them though, why he'll never stop. I am disappointed at the lack of hot Slavic women though.

[Hurlshort]

 

tl;dr I feel you guys are unfairly exaggerating the percent of anti-semites within Germany because it's easy to do so given Germany's history, but the reality is that the same percent can probably be found within every first world country.

 

 

I'd agree with you there.  Anti-semitism quite clearly exists in the US, it just tends to take a backseat to many of the other popular forms of intolerance and hatred at this time.  

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

You consistently go out of your way to insult the people of the U.S. and the U.S. itself on these forums.

He gets a pretty good return on them though, why he'll never stop. I am disappointed at the lack of hot Slavic women though.

I'm disappointed in the lack of a pretty woman thread.

[Gromnir]

 

 

tl;dr I feel you guys are unfairly exaggerating the percent of anti-semites within Germany because it's easy to do so given Germany's history, but the reality is that the same percent can probably be found within every first world country.

 

 

I'd agree with you there.  Anti-semitism quite clearly exists in the US, it just tends to take a backseat to many of the other popular forms of intolerance and hatred at this time.  

 

and yet, that is far different than the earlier claim by longknife:

 

"The days of racism against Jews in Germany are absolutely dead. Sure, of course you could find a loon if you wanted to, but the percent of the population that would support such opinions is so tiny it's not worth mentioning."

 

the populations that would support is worth mentioning. numerous news outlets mentioned.  the government created "a new government commission on anti-Semitism" 'cause it were mentioned and were worthy o' mention... even though they screwed that up in a major way.  

 

there is continuing anti-semitism in the US and europe and germany specific.  pretend that isn't the case is denial of the worst sort.  and blame on muslims alone is as ignorant and myopic as Americans believing that here in the US, intolerance o' jews is limited to nazis and white supremacists. pretend that the days of racism against jews in Germany is dead is wrong on so many levels and for so many reasons.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Gromnir

[JadedWolf]

 

 

Oh, I wasn't making percentage judgements. I was just responding to your anecdotal evidence with my own. And I believe Küln is the German name, right? I forget what the English and Dutch names are.   I go there occassionally because the best amusement park in Europe is close to it and I'm a bit of a park nut.

 

In German it's Köln.

 

In English it's Cologne.

 

I had thought you were using Dutch.

 

 

And in Dutch it is Keulen. Not that any body cared. :D

[Gromnir]

complete aside, but it has always bothered us how people change the names and pronunciations of foreign locales.  oh, sure, we get that there is historical reasons that go back centuries, but is not all that hard to change names on maps... happens all the time anyways given wars and similar such stuff. and yes, am getting that in some languages, it is simple not possible/practical to pronounce a particular foreign word.  fine, but try and pronounce as close as possible rather than coming up with a complete different word.  

 

end o' complete side-issue rant.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gorgon]

The Japanese insist on pronouncing everything with their own phonemes. The drawback being that the more sylables the fewer other than themselves capable of knowing what the hell they were talking about.