About the Talent/Skill Merger...

[Skie Nightfall]

What's so bad about games having rules and restrictions? If every class can be anything, what's the point of classes in the first place.

TES is so different, and most of its games had a pretty stupid character design without mods.

I wonder if the grip is because skills were separated before. It makes sense to me that they are tied like this. Would you like it more if skills were prerequest for talents?

[forgottenlor]

In  a way it is more like the old I.E. system. You needed a rogue or thief and he sacrificed combat effectiveness for more skill points or lock picking/ trap finding ability). Now, though you get to choose who is your skill guy (its not linked to a particular class) and that is cool. What do you have against having a more skilled character and not maxing out every character with combat skills? I think its a good idea (though I haven't played the beta either).

[ambrusynev]

I would like to have a talent/skill system in PoE where I can separately select my skill points to frame the general outline of my character e.g. I want my character to be a strong but agile fighter. Then it's time to choose talents, which also give a few skill points besides the directly assigned ones, to be able to precisely chisel the final design my character eg. he is a strong, agile fighter who excels in combat and is completely useless out of combat or he is a strong and agile fighter who stands his ground in a battle, which is is job but he is also a lore-addict and is a card sharp.  

[Gorionsson]

I don't like it.

 

I can understand why they changed it, it makes the whole process simpler.

But at the end of the day, this only limits my options.

[Namutree]

In  a way it is more like the old I.E. system. You needed a rogue or thief and he sacrificed combat effectiveness for more skill points or lock picking/ trap finding ability). Now, though you get to choose who is your skill guy (its not linked to a particular class) and that is cool. What do you have against having a more skilled character and not maxing out every character with combat skills? I think its a good idea (though I haven't played the beta either).

Everyone still gets the same amount of skill points; just now you don't get to decide how they're distributed without being shoehorned into a specific combat build. In summary; IT SUCKS!

[morhilane]

I didn't like the previous systems and I'm perplexed by this new one. Like a few other people said, it sucks to build the type of character you want because the skill are tied to talents and mixing combat performance with character's knowledge is kind of a miss.

 

Saying that, I like the "bundle" of skills, I just think it should be in another UI separated from talents. Kind of like perks that only increase skills values and allow for personality role-play.

Talents = combat improvement

Skill perks= personality/roleplay (skill value already affect dialog)

 

You don't have to increase a dull meter and the "skill perks" could have nice little descriptions too. I think that some of the talents could even be put there, like the slayer talents, because chance are they won't be taken often except for role-play reasons.

[JohnnySideburns]

I think the new system makes sense, it might not be perfect but I feel it is an improvement over what we had before.

 

to say that knowledge and combat performance have nothing to do with each other is weird, it makes sense that a warrior spending his time perfecting a skill for combat gets better athletics skill cause that what happens when you train, and a wizard perfecting his spells will do a lot of research raising his lore.

 

This could be done the other way around as well, so you would have to push points into skills in order to unlock new talents and/or combat skills, (or whatever the official terminology is I get a bit confused)

 

At the very least I feel this new system is more immersive than just pushing points into conversation/interactment

[Kiel29]

I would like to have a talent/skill system in PoE where I can separately select my skill points to frame the general outline of my character e.g. I want my character to be a strong but agile fighter. Then it's time to choose talents, which also give a few skill points besides the directly assigned ones, to be able to precisely chisel the final design my character eg. he is a strong, agile fighter who excels in combat and is completely useless out of combat or he is a strong and agile fighter who stands his ground in a battle, which is is job but he is also a lore-addict and is a card sharp.  

 

 

I do really like the idea this seems to present: A mix between the old system and this new one. Distribute fewer skill points, but points I get to allocate, then flesh it out with talents that also add some points where appropriate. It really follows the idea of this new system with the freedom wanted by everyone.

 

I do admit though it would be a much less transparent system, and maybe too obtuse.

[wanderon]

I have only made one character so far - (am about to rectify that) - but just from what I saw and what I read here - it occured to me that maybe we could have a mix of both - a limited number of skill points to distribute at character creation (and maybe a few more dribbled out every few levels) and keep the current implementation of skills tied to talents (and background).

 

This way you get to set your character on the path you want at creation and you can make your own choices about which is more important to your character as he/she levels by the talent/skill combo choices you make.

 

Otherwise I do like this current system well enough at the moment to have voted yes I am willing to give it a chance and see where it goes and suspect I may like more as I get used to using it.

 

I do wish we could dismiss some of the BB team and replace them with adventurers so I could create more characters more easily...

[dukefx]

I have only made one character so far - (am about to rectify that) - but just from what I saw and what I read here - it occured to me that maybe we could have a mix of both - a limited number of skill points to distribute at character creation (and maybe a few more dribbled out every few levels) and keep the current implementation of skills tied to talents (and background).

 

This way you get to set your character on the path you want at creation and you can make your own choices about which is more important to your character as he/she levels by the talent/skill combo choices you make.

 

Otherwise I do like this current system well enough at the moment to have voted yes I am willing to give it a chance and see where it goes and suspect I may like more as I get used to using it.

 

I do wish we could dismiss some of the BB team and replace them with adventurers so I could create more characters more easily...

 

My thoughts exactly! I was thinking of allowing each character to raise a skill by 1 on every odd level (you get talents on even levels). Otherwise I'm not sure how someone is supposed to reach mechanics 11 and beyond, especially if those talents are pretty much trap setting talents. The usefulness of those is questionable.

[Sensuki]

This would make me dabble in mixed skills:

If the game design had an even number of unique options for mixed skills (such as "The PC must have 4 in Mechanics AND 4 in Lore to unlock this option") then I would do it ... but I haven't seen anything to encourage me doing this yet and I highly doubt there are many situations that require the PC (or NPC) to have two different skills.

Players are used to maxing something because the other option is almost never rewarded at all, or often enough to worth considering.

 

THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH THE SKILL DESIGN - THE RPG OPTIONS. IT'S NOT THE SYSTEM.

Edited October 26, 2014 by Sensuki

[wanderon]

Pretty sure at least one of the dialoge options in the BB had two things listed for a dialoge option but it was unclear to me if you needed either or both (Int & Lore IIRC).

 

Thus far it does seem to me that they are including enough options for different skills in different dialoges or special encounters to make having a mix worthwhile but it would be useful to know if we are going to find them so high near the end game that only someone who used a max in a single skill will qualify.

 

It would be cool if the options were split as well like it takes either 16 Int or 10 Lore or a combination of both 12 Int plus 6 lore.

[Sensuki]

That's an attribute and a skill, not a skill and a skill.

[Headbomb]

Terrible, terrible design. I absolutely detest it and it crippled my enjoyment of the game to the point where I had to quit character creation 5-6 times before I forced myself to go through it saying screw the skills, I'll focus on combat. And every time I come upon a dialogue, I rage because the option I want isn't available.

 

I'm pretty sure that combat/out of combat were supposed to be separate and I'm very much in favour of such a separation. I voted 2nd option here, but really I'm open to any design which doesn't tie talents with skills in the way that it does now. I'm not opposed to a system that has talents that give bonus to skills in addition to the "core" of the talent (i.e. talent that gives +1 knockdown attempt also gives +1 athletics). I'm also not opposed to talents that only give a bonus to skills (talent that gives say +3 athletics and nothing else). But what there can't be is a system that, due to the way you want your character to be in combat, locks you out of story/dialogue/skill-based event options. There needs to be skill buying on its own (which can be supplemented by talents).

 

I had a paladin with lore and athletics maxed out before. If I want that, I need to pretty much sacrifice all the talents I actually want in favour of talents I don't want at all just so I get the right skill bonus. Or I get the talents I want, but end up with skills I don't want, like survival or mechanics. This new system is a big fat thumbs down.

[bronzepoem]

In the past versions, they deleted REPAIR and combined MECHANICS.Finally they put themselves into a very awkward situation:there are only five skills,which means a 6 member team can easily max whole the skills.It jsut likes that you can easily max all the  attributes of one character.That make the skill system nonsense.There was no fun in this simple and crude system.

So in 333 version,they tired talents and skills. They want to make the skill system more complex,make players thinking,making choice. When you need to thinking in a skill system, you will find RPG pleasure.The start point is good,but the way isn't.When they made the skill system more fun,the talent system was hurt.The freedom of character building was limited.Players' creativity was limited.

[bronzepoem]

I still remember what Tim Cain said:

• Non-combat skills are gained separately from combat skills. You shouldn't have to choose between Magic Missile and Herbalism. They should be separate types of abilities, and you should spend different points to get each one. 

[Caladian]

I like the overall concept and yes choosing the abilities felt more meaningful as in I wanted certain characters to have certain things.  That I really like a lot.  I also agree with sensuki that more of the rp options should be dual/triple skilled so that it is also advantageous to not mono-skill each party member.  At the same time, a careful look at the things that are stat effected, to make sure that they aren't too high.  Last time around there was a lockpick 10 somewhere in the temple area, getting lockpick 10 is nearly impossible at this stage.

[wanderon]

After some more usage of the new system I am already more comfortable with it but I still feel there should be at least a small pool of skill points that you get to choose directly at character creation (to set your skill "path") and then every so many levels another point or two (or three ) and then you can use the ones tied to talents as a way to augment your skill levels.

[forgottenlor]

I agree with the thinking that if they only have a small amount of skills they should give a few skill points at the beginning and one every other level, so that each character can be competent, though not maxed out with one skill. I also support purely skill talents (like +3 mechanics) rather than a mix of skills and abilities. This would let one make a super skill character with only a few talents.

[PrimeHydra]

 

I still remember what Tim Cain said:

• Non-combat skills are gained separately from combat skills. You shouldn't have to choose between Magic Missile and Herbalism. They should be separate types of abilities, and you should spend different points to get each one. 

 

Hmmm, I'd forgotten about that statement. The new system certainly seems to go against it! It may be a goal that looked good on paper but didn't play very well in practice. There just aren't enough non-combat skills--or enough reason to do anything other than max one per character--to justify a separate skill-buy system.

Edited October 27, 2014 by PrimeHydra

[Shevek]

Best way to fix this:

 

1. Remove skill points

2. Have each character pick a focus on creation. Their skill level with their skill focus will now be tied to character level (rather than have the player add points at every level up). They are an expert at that. All other characters should have get 1/2 the skill of an expert based on character level.

3. Dramatically increase (triple) the number skills focuses to ensure one party cant encompass them all.

4. Athleticism should be a derived stat based on con.

5. Make cerrtain professions/backgrounds give skill bonuses and penalties.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Shevek

[Seari]

^ Hell no.

[Shevek]

Worked for Star Wars Saga Edition (suggestion based loosely on that system)... Best pnp game ive played.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Shevek

[Namutree]

 

I still remember what Tim Cain said:

• Non-combat skills are gained separately from combat skills. You shouldn't have to choose between Magic Missile and Herbalism. They should be separate types of abilities, and you should spend different points to get each one. 

 

Tim Cain also said there'd be kill-xp. OE doesn't listen to Tim Cain.

[Fearabbit]

I still remember what Tim Cain said:

• Non-combat skills are gained separately from combat skills. You shouldn't have to choose between Magic Missile and Herbalism. They should be separate types of abilities, and you should spend different points to get each one.

I was half convinced of the new system, but yeah. Thanks for reminding me of this quote, I think they should really stick to that.

 

Idea:

Take the old system, but base the amount of points you have to invest in order to improve a skill on the weighted average of the skills. The further the skills are apart, the more you need to spend.

 

This discourages min-maxing at least, though I don't know if it's too complex for players to get behind.