Combat XP - What Just Happened..?

[Matt516]

I mean.. I'm not against a "don't care" option (though it'd need to exclude any other option to be working properly, which I'm not sure is possible). It would make the poll better for sure. I just don't think it's strictly necessary.

[Lephys]

I think the poll is pretty clear that in general, lock/trap XP is not popular. Currently only 30% of voters even think it's justified. Pls Josh. Pls no.

Really, if every instance of lockpickery/trap-disarmery is going to grant XP, I'd rather just see a full Elder-Scrolls approach, and have these things directly improve your skill.

 

I mean, either simulate or don't. Either the act of practicing a skill grants you experience, or it doesn't. If it does, then great. Make a whole game around that. If it doesn't, then only certain things grant you XP, abstractly (like quests!). Once again, "objectives" covers it all. Not just the name/word. The actual implementation.

 

There is no system in which the devs aren't designating certain things as objectives and not others, regardless of whether or not they ever use the word.

[Arsene Lupin]

Any action that produces experience should reward the player with Experience.

 

This is not a difficult concept. If you fight a guy and win, you become more experienced at fighting. If you fight a guy and win and then go talk to another guy who paid you to fight the first guy, that dialog does not make you more experienced at fighting.

 

Pillars of Eternity seems to have some difficulty with obtuse, counter-intuitive game systems. Like they're trying to re-invent the wheel in the shape of a hexagon. Yeah, the new iteration will do the same job as the old, but it's far from optimal.

[Cantousent]

So, we've come full circle to someone who uses the argument that old IE system was great, but doesn't actually want the old IE system used.  I mean, unless by the "old" you cite in your post, you're not referring to every IE game which all had quest experience.  In every one, talking to some other guy after you killed the first guy actually *did* yield you experience.

 

In every IE game, killing a guy didn't just make you better at fighting, it could also make you better at casting non-combat spells, picking locks, playing music, talking to folks, etc etc etc.  The system was always set up so that your specific actions did not yield improvement only for the ability associated with the action.  If you fight someone with a mace, why is it that you improved in your ability to cast cleric spells?

 

In at least one IE game, there were portions (usually minimal, to be sure) where some people, myself included, received no kill XP.  For example, in IWD2, if you were a completenik or played with less than a full party, you didn't receive XP when the CR of the encounter was signifcantly less than the level of the party.  So, in at least one IE game, there were periods of no kill XP, but you still received quest XP when you talked "to another guy" who gave you the quest to fight the first guy.

 

Maybe you think there should be kill XP.  Fine.  Fair enough.  ...But no quest XP? 

[DCParry]

Ya, more design by committee. 

 

Nothing can wrong here!

[wanderon]

Ya, more design by committee. 

 

Nothing can wrong here!

 

Hey just like congress - what could possibly go wrong?

[Immortalis]

 

I've always thought the don't care option was best represented by not voting.

 

Except it won't be represented in the result, that way.

 

I think Immortalis and you are too focused on only looking at it from the perspective of giving any potential person who has a firm opinion on the poll's issue, a platform to voice that opinion.

 

Whereas I also look at it from the perspective of gaining statistical data about where the community as a whole stands on an issue, and that requires additional considerations such as the aforementioned "Other" and "Don't know/care" options.

 

For example, imagine if this (or any other) poll uncovered that 90% of poll participants are in favour of an idea which until then, Obsidian didn't think anyone wanted. Don't you think it makes a big difference to know, whether the idea is in fact near-universally strongly wanted, or whether it's just a tiny organised minority that wants it, and a majority that isn't outspokenly against it but also doesn't see a benefit in it? In the second case, the cost of implementing the idea would only go towards improving the game for a few people, which may not be the best way to spend that time/money.

 

Also, note that in some cases, it actually is possible to have "Don't know/care" as a strong opinion which one would want to become a part of a poll's result, e.g. "I don't care which option the devs choose as long as they feel it's the right thing, and I don't want to let those other forum members control the narrative and make the devs think everyone wants them to implement whatever option ends up being most popular in this poll". Denying them that non-option is just as bad as any other potential bias or slant when creating a poll.

 

 

You: EVERYONE LISTEN! I HAVE AN OPINION ABOUT THIS TOPIC.. I don't care what decision is made and will be happy with whatever the devs decide.

 

Me: Thanks your input. Very valuable for this discussion.. [/sarcasm]

 

I don't think a voice should be given to people who have no opinion other then a non-opinion.. This thread is about discussing the viability of different xp sources..

Edited October 8, 2014 by Immortalis

[Caladian]

Immortalis, at least thanks for having the questions and available responses not sound biased.

 

Now, I can understand why people would want to have grindxp... I'm glad they didn't go that direction.  I am glad they are hopefully 'experimenting' with different kinds of xp so that everyone can have a more full experience without it rewarding what Josh considers degenerate gameplay.  I don't like the lock xp either, personally.  Just like grindxp, it is just something to get angry about feeling the 'need' to do.

[wanderon]

 

I don't think a voice should be given to people who have no opinion other then a non-opinion.. This thread is about discussing the viability of different xp sources..

 

 

Which is precisely what's wrong with 90% of polls posted on boards like this - they become skewed to the opinions of the person posting the poll - there should always be some form of "other" option - even in the case of a simple yes or no vote there is room for a maybe.

[Jon of the Wired]

I've always supported the idea of XP only from quests (though given out in chunks as you finish parts of the quest, which I guess is the 'objective' choice in the poll). I want XP only from quests because I want to feel free to complete quests how I choose, and not be told by the game that I'm doing it wrong. Disproportionate rewards for killing things in an RPG has always felt like a bait and switch: "Oh, yeah, we've included a conversation system and a stealth system in the game, but good luck leveling up if you actually use them, heh heh", "yeah, we've got choice and consequence. You can choose not to kill people, and the consequence is you don't get any XP".

 

With that in mind, I'm not a fan of bestiary XP, which is only a shoddy, partial solution to the problems of kill XP, and I'm not a fan of lock / trap XP, which has basically all of the same problems as kill XP. I suppose you can give XP for anything you want without ruining the game if the amounts you get are tiny in proportion to the XP from quests, but at that point why bother?

 

Exploration XP is a bit different. I can certainly understand the desire to be rewarded for activities that are more self-directed than your average quest, but even that I think can be done best under the existing quest XP system. Part of the solution is just making sure that quests don't all follow the typical quest-giver structure. Your character should be given better in game motivations for wanting to do something than just some **** asking you to. You should be able to feel like you're taking on a quest because there's something personal in it for you, and not like it's a job.

 

The other part of the solution is seeding the explorable areas with mini-quests that you can stumble upon, or not. You might find a corpse in the wilderness with a note that vaguely points out the location of a stash of equipment or treasure. You could find a stand of strange plants, and tracking them back to their source, find a cave where a wizard was conducting experiments. These sorts of self-directed mini-quests fit into the current quest and XP system (they would turn up in your journal "I saw some weird **** in this area, maybe I should have a look around" and you would get XP for completing them), and also have authored content attached to them that make them far more interesting than getting some XP because you cleared all the fog of war off the map.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Jon of the Wired

[Tartantyco]

Not a fan of Exploration XP simply because once people know the game they will simply go places for the Exploration XP, creating "optimal XP routes". Exploration by itself should not be rewarded, but what you find as a consequence of your exploration should be.

[Captain Shrek]

Indeed. 

 

The most important reward to me is Acknowledgement through story. If I find a hidden door or a secret glade then I want to know what was beyond it and what is special about it. Giving me XP for it is pretty much pointless. I want my reward for combat to be well designed meaningful and tactically challenging encounters. Going through trash mobs is a punishment. Same for opening locks.bypassing traps. If I only am going to find crap inside a metal chest with locks like money and +5 swords, then it will be disappointing. If I bypass a trap then my reward ought to be knowing why was the area trapped and by who. 

 

Then there is a question of character advancement: How do you handle that? Well, do it the Elder scrolls way I say. The more you do a particular thing faster it develops. Why not?

[Matt516]

Because the Elder Scrolls system is completely different from PoE's system. You can't just copy/paste. The skill system in PoE is nothing like in TES. Implementing that kind of system would require completely redesigning all of the game and skill systems from the ground up. Not gonna happen - the game was designed (like the IE games) with abstract XP and levels. There's nothing wrong with a skill-based leveling system, but it's not gonna happen for PoE (nor should it IMO because that would be a huuuge departure from the IE "feel").

Edited October 8, 2014 by Matt516

[lordkim]

 

I've always thought the don't care option was best represented by not voting.

 

Not so much - if you don't vote you don't exist in the poll - not caring where the experience comes from and/or whether it's justified or not is still a valid answer to the polls question and a valid opinion to add to the conversation whether or not the poll designer chooses to add it - accept it - or poke fun at it.

 

Damn.. Nice one

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Seriously. Award experience for any activity where effort is necessary, but quantify the award with an ECL mechanic. It's really that simple. IWD2 even had it, so they can claim IE fidelity. Crises solved.

[Captain Shrek]

Because the Elder Scrolls system is completely different from PoE's system. You can't just copy/paste. The skill system in PoE is nothing like in TES. Implementing that kind of system would require completely redesigning all of the game and skill systems from the ground up. Not gonna happen - the game was designed (like the IE games) with abstract XP and levels. There's nothing wrong with a skill-based leveling system, but it's not gonna happen for PoE (nor should it IMO because that would be a huuuge departure from the IE "feel").

Awarding XP for everything is almost the same thing. Almost, because in ES particular skills auto-enhance. That system actually makes more sense. However, I am not sure why you think it can't be implemented for PoE. Is there something radical I am missing? About a "huge" departure from IE games: This game is pretty much already that. 

[lordkim]

What if you got a quest.. The quest gives lets say 10000  xp if you make it, but all the encounters you meet  through out the quest dont give any xp., then lets flip it and say the quest doesnt give  xp, but all the encounters gives  a total of 10000 xp till the quest is done..

where is the limit for how much xp a guy needs ?

 

 

(sorry for bad english)

Edited October 8, 2014 by lordkim

[Matt516]

Because in TES there's a skill for everything. Skill for running, skill for talking, skill for blocking, skill for hitting, skill for every kind of magic, skill for potions, skill for sneaking, skill for swimming, etc. So it makes sense to award skill XP whenever a skill is used.

 

And you're right that awarding XP for everything is similar. But in a system that doesn't have a skill for everything, but has been very specifically constructed to have a divide between combat and noncombat skills (something TES struggles with not having), the skill XP system doesn't really make sense. I could maybe see noncombat skills improving in that manner - lockpick and you get better at lockpicking, etc. But it wouldn't work for combat skills because the entire system is built around character levels as opposed to discrete skills.

 

Also, having a party (as opposed to a single character) also presents problems - you'd be forced to have a single character for each skill lest the skill XP go to waste. If playing with permadeath on, that could really screw you over (as opposed to the current system where you can have multiple specialists in one skill without any disadvantage).

 

I'm not knocking the TES system. It's just unsuited for PoE due to major structural differences between the game systems (party vs single, combat levels vs combat skills, etc).

[Captain Shrek]

Hmm. Although I am not fully convinced, the point about combat "skills" makes sense. There *is* a leveling mechanics in place which pretty much determines your combat skills. I would still be happy about non-combat skills leveled that way. 

 

As for one member one skill: Isn't that something everyone is doing anyway? There are like 6 skills right? lol. I thought this game takes inspiration from Darklands. They only took up the loading screen I guess...

Edited October 8, 2014 by Captain Shrek

[Immortalis]

 

 

I don't think a voice should be given to people who have no opinion other then a non-opinion.. This thread is about discussing the viability of different xp sources..

 

 

Which is precisely what's wrong with 90% of polls posted on boards like this - they become skewed to the opinions of the person posting the poll - there should always be some form of "other" option - even in the case of a simple yes or no vote there is room for a maybe.

 

 

I voted for 4 out of the 7 or 8 options.. I think many of the stuff up there is stupid (Lock XP?).. but not as stupid as letting people who have no opinion voice an opinion.. it's just white noise..

 

Go make a fanboy thread somewhere else where you and your waifu pillow of J.E. Sawyer sip tea and talk about how Obsidian can do no wrong. This thread is for big boys who have an opinion on the game and want to discuss it.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Immortalis

[gkathellar]

Part of the solution is just making sure that quests don't all follow the typical quest-giver structure. Your character should be given better in game motivations for wanting to do something than just some **** asking you to. You should be able to feel like you're taking on a quest because there's something personal in it for you, and not like it's a job.

 

What if I just want to walk the earth, like Caine from Kung Fu?

[IRMA]

Yes, because it is much easier to come up with new ideas how to count quest xp and trap xp and exploration xp and whatever the **** you think of rather than overcoming sawyers ego and simply implementing combat xp.

Way to go really.

We have been ranting about this for 2 months Obsidian! So stop being a ****en sissy and say something.

[wanderon]

Not a fan of Exploration XP simply because once people know the game they will simply go places for the Exploration XP, creating "optimal XP routes". Exploration by itself should not be rewarded, but what you find as a consequence of your exploration should be.

 

Not seeing what the difference is here whether exploring gets XP or loot of some kind or both the same thing happens doesn't it? Once you know where the good stuff is you are going to create that optimal route anyway and the same goes for the "easy XP" vs the "toughest XP" - or getting this companion vs that companion -

 

Frankly I think the devs have enough on their plate balancing the game for first time players without worrying about what people may decide to do on later run throughs - I'm just hoping there are going to be enough meaningful choices the game reacts to that will fuel the desire to replay again and again.  

[wanderon]

 

 

 

I don't think a voice should be given to people who have no opinion other then a non-opinion.. This thread is about discussing the viability of different xp sources..

 

 

Which is precisely what's wrong with 90% of polls posted on boards like this - they become skewed to the opinions of the person posting the poll - there should always be some form of "other" option - even in the case of a simple yes or no vote there is room for a maybe.

 

 

I voted for 4 out of the 7 or 8 options.. I think many of the stuff up there is stupid (Lock XP?).. but not as stupid as letting people who have no opinion voice an opinion.. it's just white noise..

 

Go make a fanboy thread somewhere else where you and your waifu pillow of J.E. Sawyer sip tea and talk about how Obsidian can do no wrong. This thread is for big boys who have an opinion on the game and want to discuss it.

 

 

Or I can remain here and continue to inject my opinions into the debate whether you agree they are valid or not -

[Tartantyco]

Not seeing what the difference is here whether exploring gets XP or loot of some kind or both the same thing happens doesn't it? Once you know where the good stuff is you are going to create that optimal route anyway and the same goes for the "easy XP" vs the "toughest XP" - or getting this companion vs that companion -

 

Frankly I think the devs have enough on their plate balancing the game for first time players without worrying about what people may decide to do on later run throughs - I'm just hoping there are going to be enough meaningful choices the game reacts to that will fuel the desire to replay again and again.  

 

You don't see the difference between getting paid when you show up at the job instead of getting paid when the job is done? The loot you find won't just be given to you when you walk to a certain spot. You don't get Quest XP just for activating a quest. The issue isn't simply player finding optimal paths, but the nature of Exploration XP in conjunction with it. 

 

I assure you, the devs have been thinking about the replayability of the game since the start. It's not some additional burden on their plate. Adding new XP sources would be an additional burden, though.