Drama in indy gaming and games journalism

[Volourn]

"Look at your typical Bioware game, they offer male and female character selection, you can choose your race and you have same-sex Romance options. There games are already inclusive and most people are fine with that. So I am not sure what people are really worried about when we talk about " changes to games that appeal to the entire fanbase""

 

BIO games are considered sexist, Do you REALLY think someone like Anita is fine with your precious pirate queen? I guarantee she isn't.

You honestly don't see how **** like "why do there need to be more women in video games? It's a boy's hobby" is flat-out sexism?

 

 Who, in this thread, is arguing there should be less women playing games or in video games? Nobody.  I don't give a crap if women are in games or play them. Doesn't bother me one bit. Don't make stuff up. Nobody is arguing this point. However, there is no 'need' for more women either? Or less. Or more or less men. It should be pointed out, btw, that most of the men in video games are treated nothing more than mere monsters to defeat. Very few games have you mass killing women. I can thinkf only a handful that do that but I can think of many who let you kill men by the hundreds if not thousands. but, people like Anita and Bruce whine about the one female killed. L0L

 

\Because, as know, in this 'man's world' men are nothing but fodder meant to be tossed in the meat grinder while women are too fragile and broken who need to be locked up in the house because all the fodder will rape them. LMAO

 

Why do  'SJWs' hate both men and women? That's evil, sick, and twisted.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

"Look at your typical Bioware game, they offer male and female character selection, you can choose your race and you have same-sex Romance options. There games are already inclusive and most people are fine with that. So I am not sure what people are really worried about when we talk about " changes to games that appeal to the entire fanbase""

 

BIO games are considered sexist, Do you REALLY think someone like Anita is fine with your precious pirate queen? I guarantee she isn't.

 

You honestly don't see how **** like "why do there need to be more women in video games? It's a boy's hobby" is flat-out sexism?

 

Who, in this thread, is arguing there should be less women playing games or in video games? Nobody. I don't give a crap if women are in games or play them. Doesn't bother me one bit. Don't make stuff up. Nobody is arguing this point. However, there is no 'need' for more women either? Or less. Or more or less men. It should be pointed out, btw, that most of the men in video games are treated nothing more than mere monsters to defeat. Very few games have you mass killing women. I can thinkf only a handful that do that but I can think of many who let you kill men by the hundreds if not thousands. but, people like Anita and Bruce whine about the one female killed. L0L

 

\Because, as know, in this 'man's world' men are nothing but fodder meant to be tossed in the meat grinder while women are too fragile and broken who need to be locked up in the house because all the fodder will rape them. LMAO

 

Why do 'SJWs' hate both men and women? That's evil, sick, and twisted.

Hot damn, Volo used the quote function!

[Bryy]

But we don't NEED more women in men's hobby any more than we NEED more men in women's hobbies. 

Besides the amazing amount of cognitive dissonance you just showed, why are video games a men's hobby?

 

 

 

You honestly don't see how **** like "why do there need to be more women in video games? It's a boy's hobby" is flat-out sexism?

 

 

 

Who the HELL said this?

 

Outside of this thread? Only a lot of people. You'd be shocked how many people are willing to say this out loud, type it on the internet for everyone to see, and act like it's normal. It's sickening.

 

Inside of this thread?

 

 it's the phrases like "the industry needs to stop doing X and think of what it is teaching society" kind of nonsense.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Bryy

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Its not unrealistic  and the changes that AAA studios can make are already being implemented by some companies. Look at your typical Bioware game, they offer male and female character selection, you can choose your race and you have same-sex Romance options. There games are already inclusive and most people are fine with that. So I am not sure what people are really worried about when we talk about " changes to games that appeal to the entire fanbase"

 

People worry about creators being shamed and dragged through the mud when they don't appeal to all demographics. Because they don't have to.

 

 

I agree, I don't think the solution is to shame developers. Because we then see blow back and people becoming completely opposed to any recommended changes around transformation. There needs to be sustained pressure but raised in a certain way that doesn't alienate people. But the reality is you will also always alienate some people because they are opposed to any changes.

"Look at your typical Bioware game, they offer male and female character selection, you can choose your race and you have same-sex Romance options. There games are already inclusive and most people are fine with that. So I am not sure what people are really worried about when we talk about " changes to games that appeal to the entire fanbase""

 

BIO games are considered sexist, Do you REALLY think someone like Anita is fine with your precious pirate queen? I guarantee she isn't.

 

As I have said not every person who believes in transformation agrees 100 % with Anita. There are several areas we don't agree on, for example Isabella is a good example of this. But that doesn't mean we dismiss everything she says. That's the difference.

[TrashMan]

 

Its not unrealistic  and the changes that AAA studios can make are already being implemented by some companies. Look at your typical Bioware game, they offer male and female character selection, you can choose your race and you have same-sex Romance options. There games are already inclusive and most people are fine with that. So I am not sure what people are really worried about when we talk about " changes to games that appeal to the entire fanbase"

 

 

Most WRPG's had the choice of sex/race for decades. Romances are fairly new, but I personally don't care about romances.

 

"Chages that appeal to the entire fanbase" is a myth. The fanbase isn't a single entity with singular tastes that can be easily pleased.

 

 

 

 

by Bryy

Inside of this thread?

 

 it's the phrases like "the industry needs to stop doing X and think of what it is teaching society" kind of nonsense.

 

What? How is that an example?

 

 

[Meshugger]

It has to be tough knowing that there are people out there with an opinion about a hobby should be focused on men or women. Lets change the hobby itself so that feelings are accomodated. How? Well it is best if just everyone learns to stop having fun, hate everything and adopt a common framework where everyone should deconstruct the hobby according to certain political theories.

 

What the heck is wrong with these millennials with their gender politics on not just a mere hobby, but on life itself? Enjoy a sunset by the beach? No, not everyone is witnessing it equally represented according to their needs. Some people do not have access to the beach, what about them? Having fun at a party? No, some cannot eat the food and some do not like the alcohol, which makes it exclusive and the fun cannot exist without everyone sharing it. Be mesmerized by a beautiful painting? Of course not, the painter was an oppressive racist and the painting describes and trivializes the suffering of minorities. So what if it was painted 1841? Our morals are eternal! By the way, we really need to change old books so that they better suit the current political climate. It's not censorship, it's an "update!".

 

Soft language for this despicable behaviour also used, catchphrases like "Controlling the narrative", or "Leading the debate" are often used instead being direct that they are not interested open debate.

 

I think that these people are not rebels, not like the generation before them. They are not fighting for more individual freedom, they are not listening to "dangerous" music or reading "outragous" books. It seems like there is no medium for them to express their ideas of art and culture....until games came along, thanks to cheaper and more simple technology to develop on.

 

For great art to become emergent in a culture, there is a need of spiritual or actual strife and suffering. So i wonder, has any one of them actually been in a fight? experienced pure simple joy? actually been in love? I am guessing, "no". If they have, i suspect that they still haven't coped from a broken heart, a broken promise, shame or loss of dignity. Their mannerisms seems to show that they are spiritually broken, and have a lot of self-hatred. And such negative traits usually manifests themselves in lack of control and trust in their own feelings and judgement. Thus since they cannot control, understand or trust themselves, they reach out in a desperate attempt to control others in a glimpse of jealousy. If they cannot win at life, no one can. They aren't special, then either everyone has to be, or no one is at all.

 

Their false love for a medium has turned into pure, tyrannical hatred.

[JadedWolf]

Which of these two do you support?

 

1) Those spoilt boys are playing games I don't like. I want you to change those games so I like them! /stamp foot

 

Or...

 

2) Those boys sure are spoiled for games. But I don't have any games I like, can you make me some? Look, I have money. <open wallet>

 

And which of the two do you think will sooner catch the attention of a publisher?

[Ineth]

It should be pointed out, btw, that most of the men in video games are treated nothing more than mere monsters to defeat. Very few games have you mass killing women. I can thinkf only a handful that do that but I can think of many who let you kill men by the hundreds if not thousands. but, people like Anita and Bruce whine about the one female killed. L0L

 

Not sure if Bruce actually does this, but yeah, the Anita crowd sure enough does, and I find it ridiculous as well.

 

They're like, "Whoa, whoa, what was that? After killing 50 male NPCs and 200 gender-less monsters, did the protagonist seriously just kill a female NPC? How dare the game's developers include such misogyny ...rabble rabble... male power fantasies ...rabble rabble... patriarchy oppression rape culture ...rabble rabble...!!! The struggle for gender equality requires that the ability to kill this virtual women be removed from the game!!!"

 

I just... don't get that "argument".

Maybe one of the resident forum feminists can explain it for the rest of us?

[Meshugger]

They simply want to be offended.

[Elerond]

Twitter update of the day

 

Here blog post that laments about harassment and disbelief that harassment happened from GG identified crowd from somebody who's tweet including link to that blog got retweeted by people that I follow in twitter   

http://botherer.org/2014/10/13/sigh/

 

Jim Sterling has more to say about how he perceives GG. 

 

Adam Heine, lead designer of Torment Tides of Numenera, don't seem to be convinced about principalities and purpose behind GamerGate  

https://twitter.com/adamheine/status/521534238886072321

[Fighter]

Besides the amazing amount of cognitive dissonance you just showed, why are video games a men's hobby?

 

There is no dissonance there. Women should have the opportunity to make games and have games be made to target their tastes. Denying them this is sexist. This however should be a matter of the free market and does not guarantee that women will take an equal stake to men in the dedicated "core" gaming space. And if this does not happen, it is not sexist. There is no need for some arbitrary representation number that has nothing to do with the choices people make.

 

Why are most romance novel readers female? it does not matter. It just is. And doesn't require men in a bigger proportion to be "fare".

 

If I were to speculate I would say game systems were niche technological gadgets and games were more mechanics based. And that is something men gravitate to more than women imo. This is why it evolved as a male hobby primarily.

 

Now gaming has evolved since. Will AAA gaming attract women en mass in the future? Maybe. But there isn't any need for some arbitrary "equality" there. And certainly is no need to strong arm developers into that.

 

It's an interesting question though as to what could get women into AAA console and PC gaming in those genres that that are "the issue". I'm sceptical it will be what people usually complain about in matters of gender representation. I am not convinced GTA (which caused much outrage) with a female lead would attract many women that aren't already into it. According to Bioware's own stats the vast majority played male Sheppard despite all the wonderful representation in Mass Effect mentioned here. I don't think it's Lara Croft with a hatchet that will get women to game more.

[BruceVC]

 

Besides the amazing amount of cognitive dissonance you just showed, why are video games a men's hobby?

 

There is no dissonance there. Women should have the opportunity to make games and have games be made to target their tastes. Denying them this is sexist. This however should be a matter of the free market and does not guarantee that women will take an equal stake to men in the dedicated "core" gaming space. And if this does not happen, it is not sexist. There is no need for some arbitrary representation number that has nothing to do with the choices people make.

 

Why are most romance novel readers female? it does not matter. It just is. And doesn't require men in a bigger proportion to be "fare".

 

If I were to speculate I would say game systems were niche technological gadgets and games were more mechanics based. And that is something men gravitate to more than women imo. This is why it evolved as a male hobby primarily.

 

Now gaming has evolved since. Will AAA gaming attract women en mass in the future? Maybe. But there isn't any need for some arbitrary "equality" there. And certainly is no need to strong arm developers into that.

 

It's an interesting question though as to what could get women into AAA console and PC gaming in those genres that that are "the issue". I'm sceptical it will be what people usually complain about in matters of gender representation. I am not convinced GTA (which caused much outrage) with a female lead would attract many women that aren't already into it. According to Bioware's own stats the vast majority played male Sheppard despite all the wonderful representation in Mass Effect mentioned here. I don't think it's Lara Croft with a hatchet that will get women to game more.

 

 

You are mistaken about something fundamental, the only reason that games seem to be a male hobby primarily is because of the intentional design of these of games to males only at the publishers, that's the main reason. In the 1980's a decision was made to make games to target male gamers, it could have gone a different way where that  same decision could have said  " lets make games for males and females " and we wouldn't be even asking " why are males the greater gaming demographic "

 

Please read this link below that I have posted several times, it explains the reasons behind the whole   " gaming is a male dominated business"  and it explains how we can fix it

http://www.polygon.com/features/2013/12/2/5143856/no-girls-allowed

Edited October 13, 2014 by BruceVC

[Fighter]

You are mistaken about something fundamental, the only reason that games seem to be a male hobby primarily is because of the intentional design of these of games to males only at the publishers, that's the main reason. In the 1980's a decision was made to make games to target male gamers, it could have gone a different way where that  same decision could have said  " lets make games for males and females " and we wouldn't be even asking " why are males the greater gaming demographic "

 

Please read this link below that I have posted several times, it explains the reasons behind the whole   " gaming is a male dominated business"  and it explains how we can fix it

http://www.polygon.com/features/2013/12/2/5143856/no-girls-allowed

 

And who made this decision? The Patriarchy? A huge free market. Thousands of competing game designers and you're telling me no looked into exploiting a market that is ripe for the taking because it is not occupied by anyone else. They all got together and said "nope"?

[BruceVC]

 

You are mistaken about something fundamental, the only reason that games seem to be a male hobby primarily is because of the intentional design of these of games to males only at the publishers, that's the main reason. In the 1980's a decision was made to make games to target male gamers, it could have gone a different way where that  same decision could have said  " lets make games for males and females " and we wouldn't be even asking " why are males the greater gaming demographic "

 

Please read this link below that I have posted several times, it explains the reasons behind the whole   " gaming is a male dominated business"  and it explains how we can fix it

http://www.polygon.com/features/2013/12/2/5143856/no-girls-allowed

 

And who made this decision? The Patriarchy? A huge free market. Thousands of competing game designers and you're telling me no looked into exploiting a market that is ripe for the taking because it is not occupied by anyone else. They all got together and said "nope"?

 

 

You need to read that article, smaller companies didn't go against the trends. The big publishers dominated the industry and they made the  decision to target male gamers. That's the only reason we have males dominating the industry as fans today. Don't think its because us males are more insightful or technically minded than females around our understanding of games. Its just because we became the demographic that was deemed the best target to buy games

[TrashMan]

In other words, if romance novels writers would only add blood, t**s and fighting into their novels, they could capture more males as readers?

 

There is no denying that men and women tend to gravitate towards different things. There will always be exceptions of course.

 

 

You Bruce, are grossly oversimplyfing things as is the article. Things aren't simple. They never are nor were. Marketing is just one part of the story. But history shows trends that date back to long before there even was currency.

Edited October 13, 2014 by TrashMan

[Fighter]

You need to read that article, smaller companies didn't go against the trends. The big publishers dominated the industry and they made the  decision to target male gamers. That's the only reason we have males dominating the industry as fans today. Don't think its because us males are more insightful or technically minded than females around our understanding of games. Its just because we became the demographic that was deemed the best target to buy games

 

Well first "insightful" is not something I said. I said gravitate to. Second, companies didn't go against the trend, but did anyone prevent them? And third it may be the reason but you're stating it like an absolute truth and it remains to be actually proven in real life.

[Elerond]

 

You are mistaken about something fundamental, the only reason that games seem to be a male hobby primarily is because of the intentional design of these of games to males only at the publishers, that's the main reason. In the 1980's a decision was made to make games to target male gamers, it could have gone a different way where that  same decision could have said  " lets make games for males and females " and we wouldn't be even asking " why are males the greater gaming demographic "

 

Please read this link below that I have posted several times, it explains the reasons behind the whole   " gaming is a male dominated business"  and it explains how we can fix it

http://www.polygon.com/features/2013/12/2/5143856/no-girls-allowed

 

And who made this decision? The Patriarchy? A huge free market. Thousands of competing game designers and you're telling me no looked into exploiting a market that is ripe for the taking because it is not occupied by anyone else. They all got together and said "nope"?

 

 

Marketing departments of big publishers, especially Nintendo during video game crash. Video Game houses were fighting for existence because of mishandled business so they focused scope which they targeted their advertisement, by focusing marketing games as toys for boys, from where it is has grown to target ads for teen age boys and then young adults.

 

But now video game industry struggles again as it wants to grow and has started to approach wider markets, which has lead to criticism from those new market segments that feel that they aren't catered as well as those market segments that gaming industry focused for 20 yeas.

 

So it was free market that decided that games will focused on boys at least in marketing and then it was again free market that decided that it wants to lure new people in gaming, but as you can't erase past that decision meant that there will be criticism at least for while when gaming industry refocuses itself so that it can cater its now larger audience more equally. Although because general social structures and how societies work such rebalancing/refocusing can take decades as we have seen in film industry. And there will never be point when there will not be criticism. 

[BruceVC]

It has to be tough knowing that there are people out there with an opinion about a hobby should be focused on men or women. Lets change the hobby itself so that feelings are accomodated. How? Well it is best if just everyone learns to stop having fun, hate everything and adopt a common framework where everyone should deconstruct the hobby according to certain political theories.

 

What the heck is wrong with these millennials with their gender politics on not just a mere hobby, but on life itself? Enjoy a sunset by the beach? No, not everyone is witnessing it equally represented according to their needs. Some people do not have access to the beach, what about them? Having fun at a party? No, some cannot eat the food and some do not like the alcohol, which makes it exclusive and the fun cannot exist without everyone sharing it. Be mesmerized by a beautiful painting? Of course not, the painter was an oppressive racist and the painting describes and trivializes the suffering of minorities. So what if it was painted 1841? Our morals are eternal! By the way, we really need to change old books so that they better suit the current political climate. It's not censorship, it's an "update!".

 

Soft language for this despicable behaviour also used, catchphrases like "Controlling the narrative", or "Leading the debate" are often used instead being direct that they are not interested open debate.

 

I think that these people are not rebels, not like the generation before them. They are not fighting for more individual freedom, they are not listening to "dangerous" music or reading "outragous" books. It seems like there is no medium for them to express their ideas of art and culture....until games came along, thanks to cheaper and more simple technology to develop on.

 

For great art to become emergent in a culture, there is a need of spiritual or actual strife and suffering. So i wonder, has any one of them actually been in a fight? experienced pure simple joy? actually been in love? I am guessing, "no". If they have, i suspect that they still haven't coped from a broken heart, a broken promise, shame or loss of dignity. Their mannerisms seems to show that they are spiritually broken, and have a lot of self-hatred. And such negative traits usually manifests themselves in lack of control and trust in their own feelings and judgement. Thus since they cannot control, understand or trust themselves, they reach out in a desperate attempt to control others in a glimpse of jealousy. If they cannot win at life, no one can. They aren't special, then either everyone has to be, or no one is at all.

 

Their false love for a medium has turned into pure, tyrannical hatred.

I found this post interesting as it raises some relevant and philosophical points around  this discussion

 

I'm not sure I completely understand all you are saying but do you equate people who want equality in games as the same as people who think a classic painting can't be admired anymore because its inherently racist ?

[Malcador]

Well Sterling always was a SJW, hopefully he will leave his job if he is hating it so.

[Blarghagh]

I think that's unfair because Sterling did support a lot of causes #GamerGate holds dear. Sterling really did get a lot of **** from GGers simply for not "coming out and openly supporting", as did Boogie. It's sad really.

[Nonek]

Maybe he'll go back to sea, get chased by Ahab again? Must be exhilirating.

 

Edit: That's where the falsetto squealing comes from!

 

Edit 2: Or he's a Castrati.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Nonek

[Blarghagh]

Helpful.

[Nonek]

Ah only a jape, i'm sure he has a thick hide.

 

Well he has to because of the harpoons.

 

Sorry last one.

[Hiro Protagonist]

It always surprises me how so many people don't know or don't remember the arcade/video/computer games targeted to females in the 80s. But of course some websites would have you believe all that never happened.

[Blarghagh]

So The Guardian says that dealing with GamerGate there can be no neutral stance - you have to be against GamerGate.

 

Yeah, go right ahead and advocate more fighting and harassment, more entrenchment and baiting, more polarisation! The guy who wrote that is just as bad as the guy who harassed Brianna Wu. If I see one more bull**** article like this, I think I'm going to freak. Somehow, GamerGate is the bad guy here, while these guys are the ones actively, openly, publicly telling people to persecute other people.