Second impressions thread! [Build 278 version]

[Sensuki]

My thread should clear attributes up for everyone I think, it's pretty easy to understand with some charts that plot how much each point in an attribute is really worth

 

Currently it's a no brainer. Ignore Per and Res, pump Con if you're a tank. Pump Int if you're a caster, Pump Might if you're a DPS (Muscle Wizard/Cipher also stronk), Dex is pretty good for everyone too.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Sensuki

[Tartantyco]

Meh, I found PER to be valuable for a Barbarian AoE Interrupt build. I can see it being less useful for other stuff, though.

[Sensuki]

Yeah that's what Shadenuat from RPGCodex did. Interrupt Barbarian with Dual Stilettos - works quite well. There's some edge cases where Per is useful, that's for sure. But for the majority of builds I think it's inferior to putting points in anything else, except maybe Res.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Sensuki

[archangel979]

 

 

Maybe the DT values should be fractions. 

You mean percentages?

 

That was something I mentioned earlier in the thread. Warcraft 3 used percentage based armor because of this issue I believe (but they used integer based damage).

 

 

No, I mean fractions as in floating point numbers.

 

DT 1.0, DT 1.5, DT 2.3, etc.

 

There you go, smaller numbers for HP and damage and everything. 

 

They don't need this, just give armors DT value much lower for at least one type of common damage and communicate this to players. 

[wanderon]

I think a lot of stuff is being a little over simplified too - (as usual  ) - the idea that everyone but the tank can be naked for instance - call me crazy but I'm betting somewhere along the way we are going to see enemies flanking us and/or showing up at our rear and where will all those naked souls be then - (lying on the ground I suspect).

 

I think it's a good idea for folks to crunch the numbers and show where stuff can be tweaked but I also think it's a good idea that folks set the numbers aside and just build what seems to be a decent character (or even a mediocre one) and play the game as if the numbers didn't matter and see how THAT feels. Sadly I won't be able to do that again until Sunday 

 

Meanwhile carry on!

[Marceror]

 

 

This is pretty messed up, and I'm sure not what the devs had in mind.

 

If this truly is turning out to be one of the more sound strategies, than something is seriously wrong with the system that's been put in place.

 

 

One of the goals of PoE is that no armor type would be obsolete. It's sounding like all armor is potentially going to be obsolete, except for on your tank(s).

 

lulz.

 

Try it out. Combat is faster and easier.

 

I'm not questioning that the strategy works. I'm saying that if this is how it will be in the final release it's a crying shame. Moreover, it represents a failure in one of the game's design goals. The design goal was to ensure that there are no "throw away armor types". But how much worse is it if armor overall is throw away except on maybe one or two tanky characters in your party? And even with them, you're likely not going to want to give them heavy armor.

 

No, just no. This isn't what the game needs. And with all the time OE is putting into creating the armors, making them look good, etc., I'm pretty sure this was not what they were intending.

 

Armored characters are as much a staple of these sorts of games as anything else. And the thought of perhaps all but the most dedicated roleplayers running around with largely nude parties is, well... let's just say the thought of it bums me out. I really, really, really hope OE will take note of this, and make some changes that ensure armor is a much more viable option for all characters.

[archangel979]

 

 

Archangel: Durability? Let me tell you about durability.

Ouch. Well at the time, it probably made sense. People though armors would work like in IE games, not this Leather armor = Plate armor crap.

 

 

I'm not sure why you think it "=". Plate armor has higher DT than leather armor, but makes you slower. It's a fairly reasonable tradeoff even if you're a simulationist.

 

(But generally speaking I'd recommend staying far away from this game if you can't deal with "gamism".)

 

Did you read the Kotaku article? 

The design goal is to have Leather and Plate equally viable to every character with each of them giving different trade off. Which is bull. Plate is and was a superior armor for a reason. 

I don't have a problem in making Leather more useful than in IE games, newer versions of D&D also did it, but nobody ever made it their goal to make them equally viable because they are not and never will be and it breaks immersion amongst other things. 

[mutonizer]

Archangel: Durability? Let me tell you about durability.

 

Think my brain just exploded reading that post from Mr. Sawyer. Excuse me while I go try collect the pieces...geeebus!

edit: That said, that explains a LOT about the entire game design. So many things I just couldn't understand, crazy sillyness both big and small everywhere that didn't make any sense....well, I got my explanation now. Wow, that post really blew my mind...

 

 

[..]Because certain fundamental skills (like Stealth) can clearly benefit from multiple party members taking them and can contribute to party effectiveness in combat.

Where did that go? Are skills used somewhere in combat? Must have missed something...

Edited September 5, 2014 by mutonizer

[PrimeJunta]

Eeh, the design isn't fundamentally broken, it's superficially broken. I.e. the numbers are all over the place and the way their effects are communicated to the user are not clear. 

 

In theory I like the system where accuracy, damage, and DT penetration are all sums of what your character can do and what the weapon is like, but it does make things murky. The basic question of "Why am I only doing 0.5 damage?" remains not-obvious to answer.

 

Better combat feedback would help a lot. If I could see with every hit what the base damage was and how much was soaked by the guy's defenses, it would give me an idea of how well my weapons are working. Low/low means I'm grazing (i.e., not enough accuracy against target's deflection), high/low means I'm not getting through DT or other resistances, and high/high means everything is hunky-dorey.

 

Perhaps make the floaty damage number a pair? Show 18/13 instead of just 13, if 5 points got soaked by DT?

[Arhiippa]

It seems that I'm going against the grain here, but I like many of the design decisions that seem to really annoy many people here.

 

I don't see any problem with characters being faster with no or light armor. The nude ranged characters are overpowered only until they run into an opponent that can exploit their nudity and butcher them from afar or corner them in melee. This is purely a balance issue, although both in encounter design and number balancing for the armors. It's not like archers were as heavily armored as heavy infantry or cavalry in real life either. Armor for a ranged character is a risk management issue. As long as there enough reasonable threats that can hurt the ranged characters it will be a risk/reward assesment on whether to maximize DPS or be prepared for unseen difficulties.

 

Percentages for bonuses is a good thing, because they can easily scale with characters abilities to utilize the bonuses. I want to able see the final results easily in clear numbers, but like Sensuki suggested that information can be shown in the inventory. Seeing the percentages in the item description lets me make a quick ballpark estimate on how it would effect my different characters without testing it individually, whereas just seeing rounded integers calculated from the percentages wouldn't give me the same information. Not saying all bonuses should be percentage bonuses, but for those that are, I want to know what exactly the bonus is and what effect it will have on a given character build.

 

The reload penalty for moving is reasonable I think and like the penalties for heavy armor, they could be mitigated with talents or abilities to create those running archers or tumbling knights. Movement should come at the expense of concentrating on other things, unless the character is very adept at doing certain things on the move.

 

Yes, there is much balancing work to be done and some heavy tweaking is still needed, but I see a good possibility that this system will be fun to play with and passably realistic (within it's context), which I would love after years of AD&D/D&D. I'll need to play more to give any exact suggestions though.

[Tartantyco]

About the nudity: Could Obsidian please add some default clothing beyond the cloth scraps currently in the game? It's really creepy watching what looks like mounds of flesh-colored wood shavings running around on the screen.

[siril_dana]

The game plays really well for me, now you can select character with hotkeys, thats really nice. I notice you still can't do individual stealth, the whole group must walk if one character is walking, also you can't split party... I hope the realice the importance of that. More opinions coming as I play more!

[Sensuki]

Clothing is an item. If you choose specific Cultures at the start for specific classes, your character will come with a clothing item rather than armor.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Sensuki

[JerekKruger]

Clothing is an item. If you choose specific Cultures at the start for specific classes, your character will come with a clothing item rather than armor.

 

Yeah, as long as there are several "non-armour" armours in the game I'm happy with the rag-like underwear. It's actually nicer than having a default unarmoured look, since I get to pick what that look actually is.

[nerevar]

the game is better and more playable with the new update. i hope it keeps getting better and better...

my biggest complain is about stamina-health thing. this system was supposed to prevent rest spamming but currently its worse i think. after one or two combat, i need rest for my party because fighter or any of the front-liners are at the bottom of their health, while the rest of the group is fine. i am walking in cave and have to rest at least 1-2 times, if i have camping supplies. otherwise go back to inn all the way.

there should be per rest spells for health healing.

 

one more thing; the armors.

i want my fighter to have great defense against enemies by providing him with the best armor with high DT. however, that armor makes his recovery way too slow and also he is getting lots of hits from enemies. then whats the point giving him plate armor? or whats the point giving a fighter a padded armor? 

Edited September 5, 2014 by nerevar

[Infinitron]

Did you read the Kotaku article? 

 

The design goal is to have Leather and Plate equally viable to every character with each of them giving different trade off. Which is bull. Plate is and was a superior armor for a reason. 

I don't have a problem in making Leather more useful than in IE games, newer versions of D&D also did it, but nobody ever made it their goal to make them equally viable because they are not and never will be and it breaks immersion amongst other things. 

 

 

They're both viable. It's you who insists on inserting the word "equal".

 

Actually, it's easier to demonstrate an "equality" between leather and plate in 3rd Edition D&D than it is in Pillars of Eternity. In 3E D&D, If you have high enough dexterity, leather armor can give you the same or more benefit in AC than plate does.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Infinitron

[Captain Shrek]

How does that even make sense Infinitron? This clearly depends on attributes ffs.

 

Not to mention the plate and leather armors have penalties to go along.

[Seari]

 

^Yep, totally agree with Sensuki. Melee characters aren't that great in armor. Ranged nudists all the way, or at least most of your party as ranged nudists. Just send your tank in as the sacrificial lamb while your ranged nudists mop up. And don't forget to take your armor off your other melee characters like the Rogue while your Fighter is tanking.

No wonder some of my fights took several minutes. I had two fighter tanks, a cipher that mixed melee with a few cipher abilities, and those BB guys. The only one that really used a ranged weapon at times was my BB fighter and his arbalest, and I had the rogue try out a bow the last half an hour, down in the ruins. I played the game wrong. I should have played it like beach volleyball instead, the net being replaced with a tinman.

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2014 by Seari

[Ink Blot]

I personally think it's workable with the right tuning. I think the Health system can be made to function semi-properly with some ratio / number tweaking. I think that Weapon viability can be improved with the right tweaking. I think that combat feel can be improved by making it feel more fluid. Right now it feels disjointed.

 

Very soon I will have a massive thread coming with all of my combat suggestions. I've been working on them for days and days and I want to make sure I have mathematical and logical backups and explanations to go with my suggestions. That should make it very easy to see their merits. Matt516, the guy who did the DPS spreadsheets is helping me out with this.

 

It will cover the attribute system, attack & recovery and movement in combat primarily, and raise a lot more issues that I think are preventing enjoyment of combat.

 

What I don't have a solution for is how to make armor viable for Ranged characters, or how to make the Attribute bonuses from Race or Culture more meaningful - I have ambiguous ideas only, nothing solid.

I very much look forward to this thread.

[Ink Blot]

Curious: has anyone had issues with crashes/corrupted saves in this build? I had an issue in a game last night where I couldn't loot a drop from the wizard at the dragon's nest. Loaded that game up this morning and it froze/crashed. Tried again and couldn't turn in the quest to Hendyna. Wiped the saves, and restarted Steam. I'll see if it makes a difference. I reported it in the bug thread, but was wondering if anyone has had similar issues?

[Seari]

wall of text

Couldn't have said it better myself. /salute

 

I think obsidian have been a bit overoptimistic again. Making a whole game in this short of a time frame is doable. Designing a whole new system and IP from scratch, while making a game. Yeah I don't think so.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Seari

[Fiebras]

I am very much a fan of Obsidian and the classic stereotipical argument people use to defend them when critics acuse them of bugs, polish or whatever is that their publishers had forced the product out prematurely. So I do find it odd they arent giving themselves more time if they feel they need it.

Perhaps they feel they dont need the extra time, but if they do feel they need it Im fine with waiting.

[Sarex]

@Fiebras No money for more time, they don't want to work for free. They would need additional funding for more development time.

[Sensuki]

Steam Early Access

 

That said I don't think you'd get a truck load of sales for a limited beta.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Sensuki

[Fiebras]

Early access already gives truckload of sales forr limited pre-alphas that never get completed with not even a quarter of the content and polish in the Backer Beta. I dont see how it wouldnt get sales provided they are clear that it is simply to fix, tweak and balance gameplay.

Not to pull the Divinity card but they did use Early access for just that.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Fiebras