Are they even listening to our feedback?

[swordofthesith]

While I completely disagree with Josh about the BG2 Density issue (I think that was one of the things that made it exemplary), "In between BG1 and BG2" is not a bad target in any way for many things.

 

I love the Baldur's Gate series. I played those games when they came out years ago and more recently played through the Enhanced Editions by Overhaul. They still weren't as fascinating or engrossing as Planescape: Torment. It stands head and shoulders above the rest of the IE games in terms of both story and design. 

[Sensuki]

Depends whether you're a storyfaq or a combatfaq

Edited September 3, 2014 by Sensuki

[Sarex]

RE the KS Goals for Pillars of Eternity and fidelity to the original KS goals: +1 

 

As I said before, it doesn't matter if they are technically right, it won't do them any good, they rode the "hype train", when/if it crashes they are going to go with it. They simply didn't do enough to clear the waters and that is squarely on them.

 

Simple fact is they had a slam dunk on their hands, all they had to do was make a copy of the IE games with a new story/setting and improve some minor things that bugged people and maybe add some more features if they had the time. They instead chose to "fix" core systems of the IE game and remove some altogether.

 

They took a gamble and if it doesn't pay off it's sadly all on them.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Sarex

[Razsius]

 

RE the KS Goals for Pillars of Eternity and fidelity to the original KS goals: +1 

 

As I said before, it doesn't matter if they are technically right, it won't do them any good, they rode the "hype train", when/if it crashes they are going to go with it. They simply didn't do enough to clear the waters and that is squarely on them.

 

Simple fact is they had a slam dunk on their hand, all they had to do was make a copy of the IE games with new/story setting and improve some minor things that bugged people and maybe add some more features if they had the time. They instead chose to "fix" core systems of the IE game and remove some altogether.

 

They took a gamble and if it doesn't pay off it's sadly all on them.

 

 

Yea I personally thought the health/stamina mechanic would be a good idea but feeling it in game and extrapolating "future data points" I realized instead it's a very degenerate game system.  It doesn't have any impact on any of it's stated design goals and there's a fatigue mechanic in place anyways.  It ends up just being a health bar you can't heal and promotes rest spamming.

 

Edit:

 

 

 

Depends whether you're a storyfaq or a combatfaq

 

What if you're both?

Edited September 3, 2014 by Razsius

[Helm]

 

Granted, I'm not the rabid fan type that seeks out every scrap of info and post that the devs make, but I followed the KS campaign pretty closely and was pretty active on the boards here as well. I had no idea of Sawyer's disdain for the BG games.

Heh, I sometimes wonder about the 99% of backers that don't frequent the forum are going to react. I think a lot of backers simply took the "IE experience" at face value and while we can do a bunch of mental gymnastics to point out this or that feature, at the end of the day it doesn't feel IE-like to me. Were going to need more moderators in a few months...

The forum meltdown is going to be glorious.

 

"POE, WHY U NO PLAY LIKE BALDUR'S GATE!?" lol

[PrimeJunta]

Eh, perhaps I ought to start another BG2 playthrough. The writing is just so sick-inducingly bad I'm not sure I can take it. Maybe with another completely self-rolled party so I can avoid the companions...

[Tartantyco]

Well, I wasn't expecting Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests, I was expecting something that actually rewards the player for his achievements, which includes combat. You know, like in the IE games.

 

Nice strawman BTW - 8/10

 

Killing a couple of Kobolds isn't an achievement. Slaughtering a Xvart village isn't an achievement. You going out of your way and endangering the lives of your party members is not an achievement.

[Sarex]

Yea I personally thought the health/stamina mechanic would be a good idea but feeling it in game and extrapolating "future data points" I realized instead it's a very degenerate game system.  It doesn't have any impact on any of it's stated design goals and there's a fatigue mechanic in place anyways.  It ends up just being a health bar you can't heal and promotes rest spamming.

 

I never understood why he would take such a simple thing and complicate the **** out of it. I mean I know what he was trying to achieve, but I still don't get the need for stamina/health. I could kind of get it when I thought that you would lose stamina and when you ran out of it you would lose health, but this current system where you lose health and stamina at the same time is pretty dumb.

 

I'll play the game tomorrow (after the patch) but I doubt my opinion will change much. From the get go it seemed stupid to me to change it...

[Helm]

 

Well, I wasn't expecting Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests, I was expecting something that actually rewards the player for his achievements, which includes combat. You know, like in the IE games.

 

Nice strawman BTW - 8/10

 

Killing a couple of Kobolds isn't an achievement. Slaughtering a Xvart village isn't an achievement. You going out of your way and endangering the lives of your party members is not an achievement.

1. Endangering the lives of your party members by slaughtering an ogre for combat XP isn't an achievement.

 

2. Endangering the lives of your party members by slaughtering an ogre for quest XP is an achievement!

 

Hurra!

Edited September 3, 2014 by Helm

[Razsius]

 

Well, I wasn't expecting Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests, I was expecting something that actually rewards the player for his achievements, which includes combat. You know, like in the IE games.

 

Nice strawman BTW - 8/10

 

Killing a couple of Kobolds isn't an achievement. Slaughtering a Xvart village isn't an achievement. You going out of your way and endangering the lives of your party members is not an achievement.

 

 

But killing an ogre for stealing a farmers pig's is?  Quit being asinine.  Adventurers live in danger every single day they go adventuring.

 

Edit:

 

 

 

Eh, perhaps I ought to start another BG2 playthrough. The writing is just so sick-inducingly bad I'm not sure I can take it. Maybe with another completely self-rolled party so I can avoid the companions...

 

You know Prime i'm only going to recommend it because it's you but... you might actually want to try The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky.  Yes, yes I know you hate my guts now because everyone hates the jrpgs.  But it's perhaps the most well crafted world i've ever seen.  Almost every npc in the entire game has a name.  The script for the main scenario of the first chapter alone is something along the lines of 3-4 Wheel of Time novels.  85% of the time I found myself just chatting up npcs because their dialogue would *constantly* change.  I learned so much just from the most generic of npcs and although the game is choked full of troupes, it's utterly ridiculous peppiness(sp?) actually grew on me (and i'm a pretty melancholic guy).  I was laughing it up within the first 2 minutes.  Now i know nothing comes close to the metaphysics that Planescape had but man I can't remember the last time I had so much fun reading SO MUCH dialogue.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Razsius

[Monte Carlo]

This game is like promising the new Expendables but delivering a movie about a bearded man with slicked-back hair talking about his feelings in a yurt.

[Tartantyco]

And once more you manage to counter an argument that was never made. I have never said that quests should be rewarded because they were achievements.

 

The quite obvious difference between quests and an abstract reward such as Kill-XP is that they have a game world narrative and rationale. Going to kill a giant because you've heard that he has a magical weapon of great power in his abode is a sensible game world reason. Going to kill the giant because your party receives "XP", a non-game world concept, is not a sensible game world reason.

[Karkarov]

Guys seriously take your kill xp crap and keep it off the forums.  You are worse than the promancers, it isn't even close at this point.  You guys are like a bad running joke, the kind that never stops but no one actually thinks is funny.  BruceVC would at least do something witty that engendered a laugh here and there.

 

As for obsidian's kickstarter.  They promised a spiritual successor to the IE games.  They did not promise BG3, IWD3, Planescape 2, NWN3, any form of D&D rules, combat XP, Gnomes, Halflings, Forgotten Realms, or whatever else any pro xpers think is required to be a "spiritual successor" of the IE games.

 

All they promised in the Kickstarter was an isometric view, real time with pause, a party of adventurers, 2D backgrounds, and the Fighter/Rogue/Priest/Mage.  (EDIT: Oh and all the stretch goals.)  They have delivered on every one of those promises.  It is not Obsidian's fault you guys didn't pay attention and only saw what you wanted to see.  It isn't Obsidian's fault that in two years of updating most of you couldn't be bothered to drag yourselves to these forums to comment on anything.

 

Cause I hate to tell you but no combat XP was confirmed over a year ago, the health system was discussed within months of the Kickstarter ending, the resting system has been known for over a year, in fact... there have been actual updates by Obsidian mailed to all kickstarter backers telling you all this stuff long before the Beta happened.  It is YOUR fault you didn't read it.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Karkarov

[Monte Carlo]

Cause I hate to tell you but no combat XP was confirmed over a year ago

 

Nope. Wrong. I was in the thread where Josh hedged his bets over it - in fact he responded directly to me on the issue.

 

It was slid in quite sneakily without fanfare, hence the passion on the subject. I could accuse the likes of you as a shill - you seem eager to shoot down anyone who isn't totally on board with every wacky Sawyerism. But I shan't as (a) it would be rude and (b) I've agreed with you on lots of things in the past.

 

Nonetheless, this is nothing like the Romance issue. Nothing at all. This actually means something, for starters.

 

Edit - typo.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Monte Carlo

[Sarex]

 It is YOUR fault you didn't read it.

 

I wonder how much that is going to help Obsidian when the angry pledgers start knocking. I'm sure those people will be understanding and even pledge in their next KS.

[Karkarov]

 

Cause I hate to tell you but no combat XP was confirmed over a year ago

 

Nope. Wrong. I was in the thread where Josh hedged his bets over it - in fact he responded directly to me on the issue.

Hardly Monte.  All I want is a good game that pays homage and is a spiritual successor to the IE games.  I simply know what that means, it means that I am not getting an IE game.  I am getting a game inspired by the IE games.  That's a world of difference.  D&D was never on the table, the game was never going to use the same mechanics as the IE games.  I am willing to give them a chance to let them make the game they want to make, because what is the point of Kickstarter if all you want is to swap financial Investors for Kickstarter backers.

 

I will continue to play the game and give my feedback.  I haven't said anything particularly "great" about it.  I am just willing to reserve judgement for the final product and know how to judge a product for what it is, not judge it based on what my rose colored glasses say about some other game I just wanted it to be a carbon copy of.

[Tartantyco]

 

 It is YOUR fault you didn't read it.

 

I wonder how much that is going to help Obsidian when the angry pledgers start knocking. I'm sure those people will be understanding and even pledge in their next KS.

 

 

He said, implying that other pledgers had the same narrow definition of what an IE game is, as he did.

[Sarex]

He said, implying that other pledgers had the same narrow definition of what an IE game is, as he did.

 

We shall see, won't we.

[Karkarov]

 

 It is YOUR fault you didn't read it.

 

I wonder how much that is going to help Obsidian when the angry pledgers start knocking. I'm sure those people will be understanding and even pledge in their next KS.

No but you guys are funny.  Kickstarter is nothing but pre ordering the game two years in advance.  You guys are the ones with the misconceptions.  They will get bit in the ass no more than if they had just released it the old fashioned way with investor funding and then you bought it and didn't like it.  Some of you maybe would have spent less that way, some maybe more, but in the end it is no different.

 

All kickstarter changes to the gamer is when you buy and how much monetary risk you are taking.  All that changes for the developer is the amount of funding they get, and who the screaming voices are making unreasonable demands to change their vision of the game they wanted to make.

[Gfted1]

I disagree. Nobody can judge a game that doesn't exist so KS is a great way to finance a game on zero facts. Once a game has been released and graded, all bets are off with purchases as people can read the reviews and choose not to buy.

[Sarex]

No but you guys are funny.  Kickstarter is nothing but pre ordering the game two years in advance.  You guys are the ones with the misconceptions.  They will get bit in the ass no more than if they had just released it the old fashioned way with investor funding and then you bought it and didn't like it.  Some of you maybe would have spent less that way, some maybe more, but in the end it is no different.

 

All kickstarter changes to the gamer is when you buy and how much monetary risk you are taking.  All that changes for the developer is the amount of funding they get, and who the screaming voices are making unreasonable demands to change their vision of the game they wanted to make.

 

No it's not, KS is sharing a vision of the game with the people and getting them to fund that vision. They obviously didn't do a good enough job of clarifying that vision, in fact they did nothing to dissuade the people who had gotten the wrong impression. They could have easily gotten ahead of that hype train, but chose not to.

[Karkarov]

I disagree. Nobody can judge a game that doesn't exist so KS is a great way to finance a game on zero facts. Once a game has been released and graded, all bets are off with purchases as people can read the reviews and choose not to buy.

Right, but how is that different from the older model of pitching an idea to an investor or publisher and getting them to fund your game?  The type of pitch you make will be different, but the end result is basically the same, it isn't like you have a fully playable beta for the Publisher to try out.  I imagine many of the loudest voices on this forum backed Eternity for basically what the MSRP of the game would be, maybe even less.

 

That doesn't mean their opinion is invalid, but it does make my "two year early preorder" comment very valid.

 

They could have easily gotten ahead of that hype train, but chose not to.

And what were those 80+ backer updates all about?  Anyone who wanted to could have had their pledge cancelled and refunded once the backer site went live.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Karkarov

[Sarex]

And what were those 80+ backer updates all about?  Anyone who wanted to could have had their pledge cancelled and refunded once the backer site went live.

 

It's like you don't read my post at all. Over 70 thousand people backed PoE, the peak users+viewers on this forum was under 2000, you do the math. It won't matter that OE was right, all that will matter is if people will feel like they got what they think was promised to them on face value in the KS.

 

I was also not aware that you could cancel your KS pledge once the project is funded, that doesn't seem right at all. By the time the backer site was up OE must have went through more then half the money.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Sarex

[Monte Carlo]

Both of you are correct. Karkarov is technically correct, Sarex is correct in a coarser, more granular way.

 

If I buy a pair of boots inspired by Timberland I expect something Timberland-like. Not a pair that perform better on a dance-floor than in the woods. I'm not going to read too much small print, because the guys told me they were like Timberlands, right?

 

We can and probably will argue ad infinitum. But the fact is a sizeable bunch of people think enough 'stuff' isn't what they expected. The developers have not engaged with fans on these issues for some time.

 

Were they more visible and willing to engage they could probably dampen this down with enough (but not all) backers who have (perfectly legitimate) concerns.

[C2B]

 

I was also not aware that you could cancel your KS pledge once the project is funded, that doesn't seem right at all. By the time the backer site was up OE must have went through more then half the money.

 

 

You could have. Anytime. (Until August 22nd)

 

Obsidian would have just paid it out of their own pockets. 

Edited September 3, 2014 by C2B