Do you want experience from combat?

[Zansatsu]

Ok I'm wrong. I'll be honest though I really dont catch everything your saying so I'm not always sure of your exact thoughts. It's diabolical really. You speak so convoluted that it is easy to miss exactly what your saying. It's like trying to understand a mumbler and misquoting him.

[Gromnir]

Ok I'm wrong. I'll be honest though I really dont catch everything your saying so I'm not always sure of your exact thoughts. It's diabolical really. You speak so convoluted that it is easy to miss exactly what your saying. It's like trying to understand a mumbler and misquoting him.

hey, if that belief helps you sleep at night, run with it.... damn mixed metaphors

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 31, 2014 by Gromnir

[Elerond]

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61543-are-you-for-or-against-gaining-experience-points-only-for-completing-objectives/
 
Topic about this subject which was started day before KS campaign ended.
 
It shows that Josh and Tim were leaning towards objective based xp systems as early as that

Tim and I would rather not give XP for general killin' because it leads to a lot of weird/degenerate scenarios, but I have no problem with having quests oriented specifically around killing and receiving XP for achieving sub-objectives/the main goal.

 

Gameplay degeneration occurs when a player engages in gameplay not because they enjoy that gameplay but because the game's mechanics put the player at a disadvantage for not taking advantage of it. Rest spamming is one example. Wholesale slaughter/genocide is another. Quests that involve a peaceful option to resolve that get turned around after completion when the player murders the saved parties is a familiar expression of this sort of degeneration. If XP is linked to quests and objectives within quests, the player has much more freedom to resolve those quests in whatever way he or she wants, whether that means talking through it, fighting, sneaking around, or using some mixture of skills/scripted environment objects to reach the goal.

 
Although all the people in Obsidian didn't share their opinion about the issue as this quote from Feargus shows
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61543-are-you-for-or-against-gaining-experience-points-only-for-completing-objectives/?p=1244325

@Adric The XP for kills thing is still an ongoing discussion here. Our goal is to make this a game that is reminiscent of the IE games and in my mind that does mean XP for kills. We just need to balance with other systems.   

All quotes are found and posted by @Infinitron.

[Volourn]

"Gameplay degeneration occurs when a player engages in gameplay not because they enjoy that gameplay but because the game's mechanics put the player at a disadvantage for not taking advantage of it"

 

Yet, quest XP does exactly that. Now, players are gonna feel the need to complete every single quest even if it doesn't fit their character since that's the only way to level up.

 

Might as well go montey and if you say no to a quest you should geta  'quest complete' and get the xp anyways. But, THAT will also lead to 'degenerateion'. L0LZ

[Zansatsu]

 

Ok I'm wrong. I'll be honest though I really dont catch everything your saying so I'm not always sure of your exact thoughts. It's diabolical really. You speak so convoluted that it is easy to miss exactly what your saying. It's like trying to understand a mumbler and misquoting him.

 

hey, if that belief helps you sleep at night, run with it.... damn mixed metaphors

 

HA! Good Fun!

I'm glad to see you come in loud and clear when you want to insult people.

[Gromnir]

 

 

Ok I'm wrong. I'll be honest though I really dont catch everything your saying so I'm not always sure of your exact thoughts. It's diabolical really. You speak so convoluted that it is easy to miss exactly what your saying. It's like trying to understand a mumbler and misquoting him.

hey, if that belief helps you sleep at night, run with it.... damn mixed metaphors

 

HA! Good Fun!

I'm glad to see you come in loud and clear when you want to insult people.

 

actual, we typical come in kinda oblique, but hey, we work with what we got.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Zansatsu]

Well saying you come in oblique, which is like slanting, to me means your saying, yes you muddy your conversation with a shtick making it difficult at times to fully understand you. Enough is there so when you call somebody on there mistake of your goblin speak well there isn't much to say. Again I could be misinterpreting that so feel free to brow beat me some more.

[Gromnir]

Well saying you come in oblique, which is like slanting, to me means your saying, yes you muddy your conversation with a shtick making it difficult at times to fully understand you. Enough is there so when you call somebody on there mistake of your goblin speak well there isn't much to say. Again I could be misinterpreting that so feel free to brow beat me some more.

again, if such a belief makes you feel better 'bout yourself, who is we to deny your little fantasy.  Gromnir is just a simple board poster and clear not as clever as you, but, "better a witty fool than a foolish wit."

 

so, which category do you thinks you belong to, the fool or wit?

 

now, on-topic... is still moot.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Guest 4ward]

i haven't read through the thread, just i'd like to throw in my opinion. I think that the game creators should give xp for all encounters. i think so because they decided to go with random encounters being possible. I mean they placed lions, beetles, spiders and whatnot not just for the flavour but as random enemies. It doesn't make sense to me that you only get xp for the 'ultimate fights' but also for encounters the players face in order to get so far. It's just a psychological thing, give the players experience and not just loot. People like progress, they like to think they have achieved something and they like it that they can have an achievement measured, like 'i killed that lion and got 50xp - nice' or 'i killed that beetle and got 150xp - well done!'. It's not about grinding/metagaming, just raise that required xp bar for level-up and create the illusion of progress for the player.

 

With that said i'd also like to say that i like the ability/option to outsmart/persuade an opponent through dialogue or through battle if it's one opponent. If it's a group of opponents i also hope that there's quests that can be resolved by turning the odds in your favour through dialogue but not completely avoiding battle. But that's about quest design...

[Zansatsu]

 

Well saying you come in oblique, which is like slanting, to me means your saying, yes you muddy your conversation with a shtick making it difficult at times to fully understand you. Enough is there so when you call somebody on there mistake of your goblin speak well there isn't much to say. Again I could be misinterpreting that so feel free to brow beat me some more.

 

again, if such a belief makes you feel better 'bout yourself, who is we to deny your little fantasy.  Gromnir is just a simple board poster and clear not as clever as you, but, "better a witty fool than a foolish wit."

 

so, which category do you thinks you belong to, the fool or wit?

 

now, on-topic... is still moot.

 

HA! Good Fun!

I don't think your stupid Gromnir (as I said it's diabolical). Quite the contrary. I do think you have a nasty streak which you are dumping all over this forum.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Yet, quest XP does exactly that. Now, players are gonna feel the need to complete every single quest even if it doesn't fit their character since that's the only way to level up.

 

Might as well go montey and if you say no to a quest you should geta  'quest complete' and get the xp anyways. But, THAT will also lead to 'degenerateion'. L0LZ

 

I agree. I feel I need to do every single quest in the game because that's the only way I can level up. If I don't have the required mechanics or other skill and I'm just shy of completing a quest that I spent the last 30 minutes to an hour doing and it's preventing me from completing it. I have to stop what I'm doing, go and find another quest, complete it, level up, put points in that particular skill and then go back and complete that previous quest that I couldn't before. I'm already finding it tedious to do this in the beta. The optional quests are almost required to do because there's no other way to level up.

[prodigydancer]

After some thinking I see two major problems with "no combat XP" system:

1) It implies that all quests (objectives) are interesting to complete which is rarely the case. Not to say this goal is completely out of reach but balancing a game around something you may or may not achieve is risky at best.

2) It makes every quest-related NPC effectively untouchable even if you have more than enough RP reasons to immediately introduce them to the sharp end of your dagger.

 

So in the end I reluctantly voted yes on both accounts. Limiting player choices for no apparent reason doesn't look justified to me.

Edited August 31, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Ashen Rohk]

Nice loaded second question, OP.

[Karkarov]

I agree. I feel I need to do every single quest in the game because that's the only way I can level up. If I don't have the required mechanics or other skill and I'm just shy of completing a quest that I spent the last 30 minutes to an hour doing and it's preventing me from completing it. I have to stop what I'm doing, go and find another quest, complete it, level up, put points in that particular skill and then go back and complete that previous quest that I couldn't before. I'm already finding it tedious to do this in the beta. The optional quests are almost required to do because there's no other way to level up.

Odds of that happening are minimal, and I strongly suspect you can easily hit max level without having to do all the content in the game.

[Tartantyco]

ITT: Pro-Kill-XPers make up insane scenarios in an attempt to make Quest-XP-only look bad.

[Mayama]

2) It makes every quest-related NPC effectively untouchable even if you have more than enough RP reasons to immediately introduce them to the sharp end of your dagger.

Ok I take the bait, you can kill all the quest-related npc's in the beta that would give you a role play reason to do so. It doesnt break the quest it just alters the outcome.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Odds of that happening are minimal, and I strongly suspect you can easily hit max level without having to do all the content in the game.

 

Yet, you will feel the need to do 'optional' quests to level up. Not when you hit max level. Once you hit max level, you probably won't want to do the optional quests unless there's some uber loot. I know I won't want to waste time on optional quests by that time.

 

Also a problem with the optional quests I found in the beta is when I hit a 'road block' in one optional quest, eg. egg quest and not having enough in attribute/skill to complete it. When I didn't have enough of something with my characters and came back down the cliff and broke the egg, the game encourages me to save scum before every task and encounter so if I fail, I can just reload. Because if I don't reload, then all that work for that quest, the exploration and combat on the map to get to the egg, everything else leading up to it and that unfortunate failure in breaking the egg gave no xp rewards at all.

 

So then I reload, and had to jump to another optional side quest for xp. When I hit another road block in that second optional quest due to not having enough in attribute/skills, I had to jump to a third optional quest (like the ogre quest) to complete it and get some xp rewards. This then presented another problem. That third optional quest I completed did not have enough xp rewards to level up so I have to take a fourth optional quest to complete and get xp rewards. Then I could level up and go back to those first two optional quests to complete them.

 

All I'm doing is jumping from one optional quest to another to get xp rewards so I can level up, because the main quest doesn't have enough xp rewards to hit the level cap by the end - confirmed by Sawyer. Nothing else in the game rewards me with xp. If I hit road blocks on these optional quests, I then have to jump to other optional quests until I'm rewarded and eventually go back and finish those previous 'optional' quests I couldn't before. Talk about tedious.

 

Then I realised something. I can trudge through a dungeon with the game forcing mandatory combat battles onto me. Spending an hour or so before hitting a road block and then having to back track out of that dungeon to take on a third optional easy and quick FedEx quest. The 20 minute FedEx quest I completed yielded more xp rewards than the hour or so in that dungeon before I had to turn back.

 

Then a strategy formed in my head. Gather up all the small quests but don't 'cash them in just yet'. Go on a big quest and when you hit a 'road block', go back to those small FedEx quests, cash them in, level up, put points in those skills so you can do that big quest you couldn't finish before. This is what I'll be doing in the final game.

 

Also, a good game guide will highlight the fact that you will probably need the grappling hook and rope for the egg quest because you may not have the necessary skills/attributes. So leave the egg quest for now. Go to dungeon X, where you'll find grappling hook and rope at location Y, keep it in your inventory so you can complete the egg quest next. These optional quests will probably have an optimal order in doing them.

 

And where talking about 'optional' quests here. Not the main quest. All this running around for optional side quests just so you can level up. Because you won't hit the level cap if you don't do the 'optional' side quests as confirmed by Sawyer. And I suspect players will want to hit the level cap by the end of the game with the end boss.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[prodigydancer]

you can kill all the quest-related npc's in the beta that would give you a role play reason to do so. It doesnt break the quest it just alters the outcome.

I didn't know that.

[archangel979]

Non kill XP if implemented well can be awesome.

The way I seen it done in beta is not awesome or close to it.

 

The best experience with NWN games I had in a NWN2 persistent server where killing gave you 2-5 xp but doing quests gave you what you needed to level. Quests ranged from simple ones to very complex and long ones. The amount of XP depended on quest complexity.

The game had a lot of quests and not many were kill x creatures type. It was also pretty non linear and you could do any quest you could survive. Avoiding combat was recommended but it didn't make the game less fun as completing quests while avoiding patrols also took skill. Also learning to use right spells and magic items to accomplish missions was fun.

[Mayama]

 

Yet, you will feel the need to do 'optional' quests to level up. Not when you hit max level. Once you hit max level, you probably won't want to do the optional quests unless there's some uber loot. I know I won't want to waste time on optional quests by that time.

 

Than dont do the extra quest, nobody forces you to do them. Their are many people that like to do everything called completitonists.

 

Also a problem with the optional quests I found in the beta is when I hit a 'road block' in one optional quest, eg. egg quest and not having enough in attribute/skill to complete it. When I didn't have enough of something with my characters and came back down the cliff and broke the egg, the game encourages me to save scum before every task and encounter so if I fail, I can just reload. Because if I don't reload, then all that work for that quest, the exploration and combat on the map to get to the egg, everything else leading up to it and that unfortunate failure in breaking the egg gave no xp rewards at all.

 

Break the egg, gather the remains, bring it to the girl, girl gets grumpy but says she can use the stuff you have and gives you loot + xp. If you cannot be bothered to visit the bug forum when using a beta version of the game its your goddamn own fault. Also its not the first time that you use that example and people pointed out how to work around the quest-log bug. By ignoring it for the thousands time you only show that you just try to play dump to find arguments.

 

All I'm doing is jumping from one optional quest to another to get xp rewards so I can level up, because the main quest doesn't have enough xp rewards to hit the level cap by the end - confirmed by Sawyer. Nothing else in the game rewards me with xp. If I hit road blocks on these optional quests, I then have to jump to other optional quests until I'm rewarded and eventually go back and finish those previous 'optional' quests I couldn't before. Talk about tedious.

 

Again you are playing dump to pretend that their are "road blocks" and quest dont give you xp if not done correctly. Beside the thief quest which has one option that doesnt give you xp because you will get it later in the game their is no way you can end a quest without getting XP in the beta.

 

Then I realised something. I can trudge through a dungeon with the game forcing mandatory combat battles onto me. Spending an hour or so before hitting a road block and then having to back track out of that dungeon to take on a third optional easy and quick FedEx quest. The 20 minute FedEx quest I completed yielded more xp rewards than the hour or so in that dungeon before I had to turn back.

 

Again road block road block talking about something that doesnt exist. Its a well known bug... seriously. If their would be kill-xp the combined kill and quest xp would be most likley the same for a dungeon as the quest xp we have now.

 

Then a strategy formed in my head. Gather up all the small quests but don't 'cash them in just yet'. Go on a big quest and when you hit a 'road block', go back to those small FedEx quests, cash them in, level up, put points in those skills so you can do that big quest you couldn't finish before. This is what I'll be doing in the final game.

 

That road block argument gets seriously old...

 

Also, a good game guide will highlight the fact that you will probably need the grappling hook and rope for the egg quest because you may not have the necessary skills/attributes. So leave the egg quest for now. Go to dungeon X, where you'll find grappling hook and rope at location Y, keep it in your inventory so you can complete the egg quest next. These optional quests will probably have an optimal order in doing them.

 

And where talking about 'optional' quests here. Not the main quest. All this running around for optional side quests just so you can level up. Because you won't hit the level cap if you don't do the 'optional' side quests as confirmed by Sawyer. And I suspect players will want to hit the level cap by the end of the game with the end boss.

 

 

Its called decissions, failure will result in other outcomes but does not result in you getting behind in XP. Their are TONS of ways to get the grappling hook + rope in the beta.

 

And where talking about 'optional' quests here. Not the main quest. All this running around for optional side quests just so you can level up. Because you won't hit the level cap if you don't do the 'optional' side quests as confirmed by Sawyer. And I suspect players will want to hit the level cap by the end of the game with the end boss.

 

You make it sound like side quests are a chore and people dont like them. Usually people want more and many optional quests in RPG's just because you want to rush through the game as fast as possible doesnt mean everyone wants to.

[Guest 4ward]

I’d like to add that i have not voted in the poll because i think the 2nd option 'questing‘ is misleading. I think so because solving quests is required for level-up in party rpgs. It is the same as in combat-xp Baldurs gate 2 where I needed to finish quests (not all of them mind you) one way or another to be able to level-up. I just don’t understand why PoE could not be like BG2 in that regard. XP from non-quest combat was a tiny fraction of the xp required for level-up, the main xp for your party members still came from quest-related combat in BG2. So BG2 is not really different from PoE.

The thing is that I’m not really motivated to explore if I’m requested to fight enemies like lions, beetles or whatever for no loot or just random useless loot, and those opponents aren’t really walkovers judging from the videos I saw of the beta. I will just stop exploring once I reach the quest-place on the map or if I have strict route/direction description I’ll head that way avoiding any such opponents in order not to waste my spells/abilities on them. BG2 areas were also quest-related but I wanted to explore them since I would get something out of it even if it’s just a tiny fraction of my party’s total xp. So, xp from combat as well as loot is a motivation for me and if they decided to add ‘useless’ loot why didn’t they decide to add ‘useless’ xp?

[Gromnir]

 

 

Well saying you come in oblique, which is like slanting, to me means your saying, yes you muddy your conversation with a shtick making it difficult at times to fully understand you. Enough is there so when you call somebody on there mistake of your goblin speak well there isn't much to say. Again I could be misinterpreting that so feel free to brow beat me some more.

again, if such a belief makes you feel better 'bout yourself, who is we to deny your little fantasy.  Gromnir is just a simple board poster and clear not as clever as you, but, "better a witty fool than a foolish wit."

 

so, which category do you thinks you belong to, the fool or wit?

 

now, on-topic... is still moot.

 

HA! Good Fun!

I don't think your stupid Gromnir (as I said it's diabolical). Quite the contrary. I do think you have a nasty streak which you are dumping all over this forum.

 

oh, more talk 'bout Gromnir instead o' topics? what did we note about that earlier?

 

*snort*

 

in spite o' your confusion you seem quite aware o' material for which you should take offense, no?

 

and please review. what we had no patience for is when posters purposeful misrepresent. claim to not understand Gromnir? fine, but you have no such excuse for josh comments, cain comments or indira comments. pretend as if what indira were suggesting were same as obsidian claims o' need/goals for an experience mechanic were conversely mendacious or cretinous (denotative, not connotative.)  so, much as with this topic itself, we have a functional choice o' two diametric opposed options. 

 

we seem harsh to you? gosh. am tending to agree that we is harsh, but only with the willful obtuse or mendacious. indira statements and josh position were not confusing, even if Gromnirs posts elude you. no excuses. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[prodigydancer]

Beside the thief quest which has one option that doesnt give you xp because you will get it later in the game their is no way you can end a quest without getting XP in the beta.

In other words "no trash options". Nice to see how Obsidian is trying to stay true to their word and stick to their philosophy. I respect that even though I still have my doubts about the outcome.

[Cantousent]

On one hand, I think the 'you must do all quests' argument due to 'quest' only experience is ridiculous.  On the other hand, if I'm to be intellectually honest, that feeling could also be turned around on folks who don't like combat XP because it encourages folks to commit 'genocide.'  However, the entire exchange *does* reinforce the basic premise that people do what they are rewarded for doing.  I think kill XP is more prone to abuse, which is a balance issue, but that doesn't mean that questing XP cannot be abused as well.

 

I would like to point out that, while I don't like kill XP per se, I nevertheless contend that significant encounters the players may face ought to yield experience.  Some of them might be of the nature that they can only be overcome through combat, and folks should get XP for overcoming them by combat.  Some of them might be of the nature that some other method is the only reasonable option for success.  'Quest' XP should be limiting to a certain degree, which is why it is useful for balancing, but it shouldn't be a straightjacket.

 

As examples of what I mean, let's take a group of DnD goblins that the party randomly encounters.  The devs don't give XP for overcoming them because they are more or less trivial for a well prepared party and the monster type is ubiquitous.  No XP.  Now, let's take a pride of hungry assed man eating lions that the party randomly encounters.  The party sneaks by the lions and goes on their merry way, XP.  Party knocks off lions and makes the road safer, even more XP.  The party has a druid or some sort of lion taming dude who manages to tame the lions and donates them to the nearest zoo, a hefty infusion of XP.  The party doesn't get 'kill' XP, but they do get XP for killing the lions.  Better results yield better XP.

 

Now, let's take an encounter with a powerful entity that the represents an immediate danger to the party and the region.  It is unable to communicate and there are no reasonable options to overcome that entity other than combat, leaving it alive will only allow it to become stronger.  The party only gets XP for killing it.  It is nonetheless not kill XP.  It is XP awarded for the only beneficial result.

 

Let's take a strange bird of great value that is only beneficial to the party if it captured alive.  The party may use stealth to overcome the fowl encounter by capturing the bird or have some druid type tame it.  The party gets the same amount of XP in either case, but gets an extra gameplay reward because the druid can turn it into an animal companion.

 

'Quest' only XP need not be as sterile and bland as folks imagine it to be.  I don't know exactly how the devs will implement it, but I don't see why 'quest' only XP need not yield results for overcoming even random encounters.

 

EDIT:  clarity

Edited August 31, 2014 by Cantousent

[Zansatsu]

 

 

 

 

Well saying you come in oblique, which is like slanting, to me means your saying, yes you muddy your conversation with a shtick making it difficult at times to fully understand you. Enough is there so when you call somebody on there mistake of your goblin speak well there isn't much to say. Again I could be misinterpreting that so feel free to brow beat me some more.

again, if such a belief makes you feel better 'bout yourself, who is we to deny your little fantasy.  Gromnir is just a simple board poster and clear not as clever as you, but, "better a witty fool than a foolish wit."
 
so, which category do you thinks you belong to, the fool or wit?
 
now, on-topic... is still moot.
 
HA! Good Fun!

I don't think your stupid Gromnir (as I said it's diabolical). Quite the contrary. I do think you have a nasty streak which you are dumping all over this forum.

 

oh, more talk 'bout Gromnir instead o' topics? what did we note about that earlier?

 

*snort*

 

in spite o' your confusion you seem quite aware o' material for which you should take offense, no?

 

and please review. what we had no patience for is when posters purposeful misrepresent. claim to not understand Gromnir? fine, but you have no such excuse for josh comments, cain comments or indira comments. pretend as if what indira were suggesting were same as obsidian claims o' need/goals for an experience mechanic were conversely mendacious or cretinous (denotative, not connotative.)  so, much as with this topic itself, we have a functional choice o' two diametric opposed options. 

 

we seem harsh to you? gosh. am tending to agree that we is harsh, but only with the willful obtuse or mendacious. indira statements and josh position were not confusing, even if Gromnirs posts elude you. no excuses. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

    I've never misunderstood Josh or Cain, I misunderstand you. I don't agree with their stated goal or need for perfect balance. Indira stated a combat Xp system could be implemented in time. You said not a balanced one and he agreed but that wasn't an issue for him and it isn't one for me. I already admitted to that.

    I've never read you anywhere saying Combat Xp could be balanced until a page ago at least I don't think so because again you intentionally play the fool (which you clearly are not) and yes your post can be hard to read and understand perfectly. I thought balance was your whole problem with it. Maybe you said it can be balance before somewhere but I've only been on these forum for 2 weeks. I skim a lot of the post because some are very long or a chore to read. I don't think I'm alone in that, and this is just a forum, I'm not trying to master every topic, just enjoy a game. 

    You jump off topic, disguising your insults and condescension with a calculated court jester bit, then at the very end after you spent all that time patronizing someone tell them to stay on topic. Sheesh. I've never been warned by a moderator so I assume they don't take issue with me.

     I don't know that you really read what I say either. I've said multiple times I'm not married to Combat Xp and am only here to discuss why I prefer it over quest only. I've agreed that the problem I've noticed with the progression of the Quest only Xp at the moment is pacing and that the wilderness will, after I've completed this game once, serve little function for me, which is sad because it's a beautiful game. Really why trudge out everywhere again using up resources once I know where the important stuff is? One thing I enjoyed about the IE games was the fact that if I didn't stay on point all the time I still could progress if I decided to just do some Dungeon romping. To me having Quest only XP is actually going to shrink how much I do everytime I replay the game, if I do replay it. Doesn't mean I won't like the game.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Zansatsu